[Tim Bert]

Wow.

OK, we can end this, because you and I are on such totally different pages here that we shall never come to consensus, or get the other to really understand his way of thinking.  I too have played Pacific Dunes several times and well... split 10 rounds between PD and PB and it's about 7-3 in favor of Pebble for me.  And this is not DISLIKE for PD - god I love that course as well - it's more the very high regard in which I hold PB.

I guess we can cover one more question though... you state:

As to an earlier question you asked, I think MPCC would appeal more to a wider range of player than Pebble if most were able separate themselves from the history and famous factor.  I think it is more playable, and provides a lot more options around the green.

To which I have to ask:  why SHOULD people separate themselves from the history and famous factor?  One can't emulate Watson's chip in or Nicklaus' yellow-cardigan 1iron nor Kite's chip-in nor so many other things at MPCC Shore, no matter how much more playable it is nor more options it offers around the greens.

...And I really like Pebble.  I know my comments here probably make it sound like I'm bashing it.  That's not the case.  I'm trying to emphasize how much I like these other courses.  Playing Pebble revealed for me just how much I liked Pacific.  I knew it was a lot, but I came away from this trip able to appreciate its greatness even more than I ever have.

I get what you are saying about emulating the shots of the greats.  That's pretty cool.  It might make the experience better, but it doesn't make the course any better.  And I've already proclaimed that I'm comparing the experience as much as the course, so I've factored that in.  I think that most tend to OVERWEIGHT that factor compared to how I would weight it.  Which is fine; one theme we've all agreed upon on this thread is there are vastly different opinions abound, which is cool.

[Ian Andrew]

Bob,

The first time I truly understood the power of sweeping fairways was at Mike Stranz’s Shore Course at Monterey Peninsula Country Club. Mike used the sweeping contours, large scale hazards and the sweeping panorama of the Monterey Peninsula to make one of the most visually stunning courses I have ever seen. I found his work fit perfectly into the spectacular surroundings and the scale and movement were magic across the open land that he had to work with.

The joy of these wide swings left and right is that they also make for excellent strategy too. The value is that they offer long carry lines that continue to work regardless of the changes in technology because the hazard and contour are still sweeping beyond the planned centerlines. This may be the most technology resistant strategy that I have seen. The key seems to be having enough movement left or right to continue the carry angle well beyond someone’s ability to carry the ball.

It’s an outstanding example of using scale, space and sweeping vistas to absolutely fit the course to the site. There are few better. That’s the good.

That said the 17th is decidedly average – but acceptable if it weren’t followed by the 18th. The 18th – which is the real detriment of the course - doesn’t work for me on any level. I find the hole turns awkwardly from the tee and I can’t figure out the choices made at the green side for the life of me. There is literally nothing I like about the hole – and it’s the last one you play after such an outstanding set of holes. The route back to the clubhouse must have made a nice finish before the range.

I played with three architects and we were in awe of the first 16 or 17 holes and all were completely perplexed by the 18th. The course is still one of my favourite modern courses I have played and I have found myself writing about it on a few occasions.

I thought Mike managed to tone down some of his eccentric ideas found at Tobacco Road and still create that sense of adventure that I loved. Lots of opportunity combined with lots of disastrous situations. I certainly like his work a lot and admire the boldness of his thinking.



p.s.  I'm sorry we didn't manage to match schedules to have lunch while I was there

[Tom Huckaby]

Wow.

OK, we can end this, because you and I are on such totally different pages here that we shall never come to consensus, or get the other to really understand his way of thinking.  I too have played Pacific Dunes several times and well... split 10 rounds between PD and PB and it's about 7-3 in favor of Pebble for me.  And this is not DISLIKE for PD - god I love that course as well - it's more the very high regard in which I hold PB.

I guess we can cover one more question though... you state:

As to an earlier question you asked, I think MPCC would appeal more to a wider range of player than Pebble if most were able separate themselves from the history and famous factor.  I think it is more playable, and provides a lot more options around the green.

To which I have to ask:  why SHOULD people separate themselves from the history and famous factor?  One can't emulate Watson's chip in or Nicklaus' yellow-cardigan 1iron nor Kite's chip-in nor so many other things at MPCC Shore, no matter how much more playable it is nor more options it offers around the greens.

...And I really like Pebble.  I know my comments here probably make it sound like I'm bashing it.  That's not the case.  I'm trying to emphasize how much I like these other courses.  Playing Pebble revealed for me just how much I liked Pacific.  I knew it was a lot, but I came away from this trip able to appreciate its greatness even more than I ever have.

I get what you are saying about emulating the shots of the greats.  That's pretty cool.  It might make the experience better, but it doesn't make the course any better.  And I've already proclaimed that I'm comparing the experience as much as the course, so I've factored that in.  I think that most tend to OVERWEIGHT that factor compared to how I would weight it.  Which is fine; one theme we've all agreed upon on this thread is there are vastly different opinions abound, which is cool.

Yes, we can agree on that.  But I shall also continue to think you are insane.  I won't mention the Isthmus, though.

 

[Jed Peters]

Hrm: For courses on the monterey penninsula:

The cruel older sister:  Poppy Hills. You think you're "in", and then you look at your score card. Plus, if your behavior is a bit "off", you end up in jail.

the loving mother/the coddling grandmother: Pac Grove. Had to combine them because they're both. Fun and accepting for all. Smells like cookies, even if sometimes you have to sit around and wait for them for HOURS.

vindictave first ex-girlfiend, etc.: OLD Bayonet. What a bitch. Some rewards, but only if you're willing to go in blind.

And I'm adding another one:

Teacher that used to rap you on the knuckles: Spyglass. 'nuff said.

[Kalen Braley]

Hrm: For courses on the monterey penninsula:

The cruel older sister:  Poppy Hills. You think you're "in", and then you look at your score card. Plus, if your behavior is a bit "off", you end up in jail.

the loving mother/the coddling grandmother: Pac Grove. Had to combine them because they're both. Fun and accepting for all. Smells like cookies, even if sometimes you have to sit around and wait for them for HOURS.

vindictave first ex-girlfiend, etc.: OLD Bayonet. What a bitch. Some rewards, but only if you're willing to go in blind.

And I'm adding another one:

Teacher that used to rap you on the knuckles: Spyglass. 'nuff said.

Very good Jed,

So how does Cypress, Spanish Bay, Old Del Monte, and the Dunes course fit in.  My god...its hard to see one area with a finer selection of golf courses that the Monterey area.  I know there is Long Island and some spots accross the pond, but is there a finer collection of courses all within 10 miles of each other?  (Yes, I know this excludes Pasa, but the list is still perfectly capable without Pasa I think)

P.S. May I submit ODM as the coddling Grandma... 

[Mike Benham]

Jed is on a roll ... how about the hot aunt who is really only a few years older then you ? 

[Jed Peters]

Hrm: For courses on the monterey penninsula:

The cruel older sister:  Poppy Hills. You think you're "in", and then you look at your score card. Plus, if your behavior is a bit "off", you end up in jail.

the loving mother/the coddling grandmother: Pac Grove. Had to combine them because they're both. Fun and accepting for all. Smells like cookies, even if sometimes you have to sit around and wait for them for HOURS.

vindictave first ex-girlfiend, etc.: OLD Bayonet. What a bitch. Some rewards, but only if you're willing to go in blind.

And I'm adding another one:

Teacher that used to rap you on the knuckles: Spyglass. 'nuff said.

Very good Jed,

So how does Cypress, Spanish Bay, Old Del Monte, and the Dunes course fit in.  My god...its hard to see one area with a finer selection of golf courses that the Monterey area.  I know there is Long Island and some spots accross the pond, but is there a finer collection of courses all within 10 miles of each other?  (Yes, I know this excludes Pasa, but the list is still perfectly capable without Pasa I think)

P.S. May I submit ODM as the coddling Grandma... 

The Great-Grandparent: Cypress: the patriarch or matriarch of the family, or the "Don" if you're talking about an Italian crime family. Really so far above and beyond all that they "oversee" everything. Usually found at an italian family reunion with their great grandkids around, where the older family members come up to "give their respect". They usually don't spend much time with the "Don", just pay their respects and move on. The ones who hang w/ the Don do so reverentially and in such a manner where as they are elevated to near equal status.

The naughty 45 year old MILF/Cougar: Spanish Bay. Looks GREAT from far away, but you realize up close that it's really just all the pseudo work that's been done to make it "look" that way. The baggage that is being carried about weighs it down--there's hidden hazards and landmines everywhere. You think the surface is smooth and flowing from far, but when you get up close, you realize there's not much run-up and you get stuck in the cracks. Positive points for being cheap in the off-season.

Great Aunt: Old Del Monte--Sisters with Grandma, so there is some history there. But there isn't the unconditional love felt--if you are a bad boy you will be punished, but at the same time, feel pretty good about yourself overall. Let's just say the path with this one is narrow.

Dunes? Not qualified to say.

[Mike Benham]

The naughty 45 year old MILF/Cougar: Spanish Bay ....  Positive points for being cheap in the off-season.

Bravo !!!

[Jon Spaulding]

Had a feeling this thread might evolve into a discussion about cougars. Good work Mr. Peters......

Spyglass is like the priest....I had better stop .

[Dave_Miller]

Wow... another one comes out preferring MPCC Shore to Pebble freakin' Beach.

OK, I guess I must be the crazy one.

Nahhhh... you guys are all just in Huntley Honeymoon phase.

We're gonna have to do a comped outing at Pebble Beach, first group off, so you all can see how crazy you really are.

How about you set that up, Dave?

 

Huckster:

As one who has played Pebble Beach 20+ times, sorry but I will take the Shore Course every day.
And by the way I have had the first tee time at Pebble.
Best
Dave

[Scott Stambaugh]

For someone like me who has been fortunate enough to play many, many rounds at MPCC, it's still hard to fathom what the Shore has become.  In the thousands of trips I have made around the old Shore thinking about "what if...," never could I have imagined it as it is today.

To really know the old piece of property intimately and then see Stranz' creation confirms that in my opinion, it is (sadly was) truly the work of a genius.


My only criticisms-

Other than #18, #14 is the only other hole on the course that seems a bit odd to me.  The green complex is quite busy and not very pinable.  Plus, I play a low, power snap so it just doesn't work for me...

#18- On the old Shore, #17 occupied the same land as the current #18 and was not a fantastic hole either.  A few of us know-it-alls had the solution back then to make it a great hole, which would still work today-

- Get the Club (with their seemingly endless supply of $$$$) to buy and remove the portion of San Carlos Road behind the green.

- Pay to have the power lines buried.

- Pay off all the homeowners in the "island" neighborhood surrounded by the course for their inconvenience of now having to access their homes from the one way in/out down by #1green/#2 tee.


- Move the green back to any desired length/location and create a tough, demanding finishing hole.  (This is the one thing the old Shore had that was lost with the new routing- a great finishing hole.)

Could still be done for less money than that Trump LA/Ocean Trails debacle, right?

[J_ Crisham]

Bob,
    I felt the strength of the course was in the par 3's and par5's. I would be interested to know how many of our group played these holes in level or near level par. I would guess zero is the answer. I witnessed a fine round by Bill Mcbride,78 or so , and he may have been close.This was a great collection of architecturally sound holes that were quite testing. I also felt the firm fairways were a nice surprise. PB is generally soft and soggy. The other nice feature is how little you hear about this club despite it's greatness-a nice little secret if you are a member!

[Jon Spaulding]

Since you asked Jack......I was -1 on the 3's and the 5's. No weak sisters in that block of 10 holes.

I too was pleasantly surprised (perhaps shocked) at how firm the fairways and approaches were....as opposed to the mush one finds at some of the other courses in the immediate area.

[Tim Bert]

Agree with the comments on firmness.  I enjoyed how the course ran.  It was the fastest course I played all week other than Pacific Grove, which was just humming.

[Tom Huckaby]

Scott - that is a hell of an idea.  I just don't want to be the one to send out the assessments for that.   

Dave - well then I shall just chalk you up as being an east-coast Pebble hater, as several others in here seem to be.  Either that or you are certifiable.   

[Mike Benham]

As one who has played Pebble Beach 20+ times, sorry but I will take the Shore Course every day.

Please state why, is it because the Shore is easier, more receptive to your game, wider fairways, less trouble, no forced carries, no annoying sightseers, please tell why?

[Kalen Braley]

Switching gears back to the course..

This is the first course I've played that has extensive waste bunkering on pretty much every hole.  Its taken me awhile to digest what I thought of it and it seems it was helpful in both tying the course into the land as well as really give the course that meandering feeling.

Holes where I thought it was really neat was 7 with all the intermittent waste areas down the right hand side, 9 all along the right side, 15 which I felt like gave the suggestion to the golfer to play out to the right when the hole actually doglegs left, and last but not least 16.  This waste area fronting the 16th fairway was nothing short of spectacular in my book.

For those of you who have played course with extensive waste areas like the Shore, what were your impressions?

There are a couple of Gene Bates courses here in the SLC area that have these, but I must admit they look a bit contrived as opposed to what I saw at the Shore where it helped to blend things in.

I hate to re-drag up old posts I made earlier....but I think my previous post was worthy of some dicussion on this thread. I really am interested from feedback from those who have played other courses with large waste areas.

Thanks,

Kalen

[Tom Huckaby]

Kalen - how dare you ask substantive question that respond to the topic, rather than go off on valuable tangents!

 

I shall answer your question quite simply:  the use of waste areas on MPCC Shore is the best I have ever seen.

TH

[Kalen Braley]

Kalen - how dare you ask substantive question that respond to the topic, rather than go off on valuable tangents!

 

I shall answer your question quite simply:  the use of waste areas on MPCC Shore is the best I have ever seen.

TH

I know I know, I've got quite the gumption on my part...but damnit, someone has to save this site from all you off-topic whores.   

I thought it worked very very well too...ok you Florida boys who have seen MPCC as well, what say you??

[John Mayhugh]

A week or so ago  twelve hearty GCA'ers played MPCC's Shore Course.

There are a couple of things about the course that I think need some fine tuning, or indeed, some radical changes.

Please, let loose the cannons and fire away.

You will not hurt my/our sensibilities.

Bob

Interesting debate over MPCC Shore, Pebble, & Pasa.  All are very fine courses and it's not remarkable to me that an individual could prefer one course over the other. 

Our host asked us to tell him what we think could be improved with the Shore course.  When I mentioned the things I did, I was just being honest.  I cannot think of a single course I have played that could not be improved in some way.   That doesn't mean I didn't love the course but does perfection exist anywhere?

Regarding the rocks, Tom H asked if I expected "them to remove them all?"  Of course not. I was referring to ornamental placement that exists in a few spots. I think behind 15 green is one of them.

I'm eager to hear what Mr. Huntley thinks could be fine tuned.

[Bob_Huntley]

John,

I think that the ninth hole should be made into a par four and the green blown up.

I think that the sixteenth hole should be made into a par four.

I think that the short par four 5th hole's teeing ground be moved back to the current 16th green site. Although a superb short par four with a penalizing ditch to the right of the green, I have seen no one in a serious competition go for the green off the tee.

Frankly, I am at a loss to know what to do with the 18th  hole.


I think that the view from the 11th back tee box is too busy. The delineation between the sixth and eleventh holes is fussy.


Bob

[Tom Huckaby]

John - I don't recall any ornamental rocks...those behind 15 green sure as heck are not ornamental but are huge and have been there forever - but anyway if such do exist, well then they should utterly be cryit downe.  I just thought  thought that you (as several here before) were referring more to the large boulders such as those on 10/11.  That's what had me head-scratching.

TH

[Tom Huckaby]

Bob:

FANTASTIC!

Many of us had been waiting for your take here.

And far be it from me to question a man who's played the course hundreds of times more than I have, but....

9 - I kinda figured you might say this - I have the same concerns, voiced herein.  I think the hole just plain doesn't work for the higher 'capper, and you're right, the green is a bit much.  One could put a great short par 4 there, just by moving back the tee and doing a bit more brush clearance. 

16 - heck, it IS a par four for the Jon Spauldings of the world.  But I think it works pretty darn well as a short par five for us mortals.  What are your issues with it as a short par five?

5 - great point - no one does ever go for that green, because it's just not worth the risk.  Straightening the hole would insert this as a realistic option for the Spauldings of the world, and would change little for the rest of us.  But what do you do with 16 green if you put the tee over there?  Or is your "make 16 a par 4" plan including moving that green closer to the tee?

18 - you and everyone else is at a loss.  Maybe Pete L's ideas/questions re the left mound/hump could at least improve the green?

11 - so you think some rocks should be removed?  Man I rather like the view as it is... one looks OVER those rocks... at least I do.  Thus I think it's kind of much ado over nothing, as is what's in between 6 and 11... a lot of work and expense for little improvement... but hey, I also LIKE large rocks. 

TH
ps - just to set the world back on its proper axis, could you also comment on those nutcases who prefer MPCC Shore to Pebble Beach? 

[Dave_Miller]

Scott - that is a hell of an idea.  I just don't want to be the one to send out the assessments for that.   

Dave - well then I shall just chalk you up as being an east-coast Pebble hater, as several others in here seem to be.  Either that or you are certifiable.   

Huckster:
Must be that I am certifiable .  I do not hate Pebble Beach I enjoy it very much. I just prefer the Shore.  No six hour rounds, No annoying sightseers, No beginning golfers who feel because they payed $475+ dollars they have the right to take 6 hours.
I just like the Shore Course
Best
Dave

[Kalen Braley]

Bob,

Interesting thoughts about the 9th hole.  When I was first investigating the hole via the aerials, I was under the impression it played as a short risk/reward par 4.  It does look like the green could be pushed back 50 yards to turn it into such.  But I really like that green though, it was one of my favs...of course I really like wild greens. 

Re 11 - I would agree that there isn't a good delineation between where 11 ends and where 6 starts.  But part of what makes that hole interesting to me is that because there is so much going on, it really makes the golfer have to focus that much more to really key in on what he wants to do.

Sadly I don't see much of a solution for 18 either that wouldn't require either a long walk between 17 and 18 or after the round.  There is another one I've thought about, but I've been hesitant to mention it because it would require a lot of earth moving and I know such suggestions are grounds for dismisal from GCA.com.   

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