[wsmorrison]

Jim,

I guess poor CBM can't get an attribution break anywhere 

Who is William Ellis and how did he get the story so mixed up in the year before Raynor's death?

[Jim Nugent]

You're right, Wayne.  Rumors are floating around about new research that supposedly proves CBM's role at NGLA has been greatly exaggerated too.  From what I heard, the research claims that Macdonald mostly sipped Tequila Sunrises and Black Russians, while an unheralded genius conceived, designed and built the course.  Developing....

[DMoriarty]

Jim,
I don't see the inconsistency to which you refer, at least when I look at the context of the quotes.


I explained my reasoning above.  But in particular, the paragraph before the the one quoted states that eventually Raynor did the legwork and that Macdonald's role was to critique the plans.

Could you tell us what you view the inconsistency to be, given this context?

Thanks. 

[Mike Sweeney]

The Committee gives CBM praise for his help.  It names SR as architect, builder, the person who routed the course and supervised its construction.     

Jim,

My two questions still stand, and I don't think they will ever get answered and/or I will miss it in the 16 current Merion threads. The questions are:

1. What DID Macdonald do at Merion?

2. Who did the initial routing of Merion?

Despite Raynor being listed as architect of Yale by Yale, it is my contention that you would never have had the drama of Yale if Raynor was working alone without CB Mac. His only solo course that comes close to the drama of Yale is Fishers Island, and that is more site driven in my opinion.

Merion is pretty dramatic, especially holes 16-18. Who should get the credit for those holes?

I don't think we will ever find out, but I am sure that won't stop these threads!

[Mike_Cirba]

Jim,

My two questions still stand, and I don't think they will ever get answered and/or I will miss it in the 16 current Merion threads. The questions are:

1. What DID Macdonald do at Merion?

2. Who did the initial routing of Merion?

Mike,

Those are easy questions....why are you throwing us a softball? 

1) He "advised".   We have three separate unrelated accounts by three different men that use the same exact wording.

2) HH Barker     

It just wasn't used, at least that we can tell given that it was only for 100 acres.

[Jeff_Brauer]

The most exciting part of this thread is Wayne saying he actually has seen the Barker report.  How neat will that be if someone can enhance it enough to really know what it said.

And, it gives hope that Merion has the MacDonald report squirreled away somewhere! 

Having done some historical research on my own, the excitement of that process is what drives me to be interested in this thread.  I know what the likes of DM, TePaul and Wayno are going through.  You never know if you have enough material, and a lot of what you come up with still begs for more and for interpretation.  At some point, you have to write down what you found, organize it, etc. and come to some conclusions.  But you are never 100% sure that the magic bullet document isn't somewhere just out of your reach.

Anyway, hats off to them and I hope we can see the Barker and CBM letters at some point in the future just to get a glimpse of how a great course like Merion came together.

[wsmorrison]

Whoah, Jeff! 

I don't have the Barker sketch or report, just his very brief letter to the Committee, distributed to the membership, mentioning the sketch and report.  I've yet to see the information necessary to attribute any specific input in the routing and design of Merion East. 

I am about to gain access to a location which may be the last remaining likely place for the Barker and Macdonald reports.  But I don't have much confidence that either will be found.

[mike_malone]

 If you were to walk the area of Merion in those days which present green sites would you have been attracted to?

   I think they are #3-got to have that site on my course-#7 again , a neat spot for a green #12 another raised approach#15 and#16. Then you see how the creek is to be used on #4,#5, #9, #11.

   To pull this together you needed the land that was added for #3-6-7 and the land for #15 and #16 tee.

   If anyone stopped short of these additions to their proposed routing it wouldn't be worth a damn. So, what good is Barker's routing? and if M+W did not specifically recommend these additions in their routing , then who really cares what they suggested?

[Patrick_Mucci]

Patrick, here is what Ran says:

"And as George Bahto, the leading Macdonald/Raynor historian, points out, it is Raynor and not Macdonald that deserves the credit for Yale."

i.e. Ran positively says Raynor not Macdonald deserves credit for Yale.  He does NOT merely quote Banks.  

He merely quotes Bahto and Banks.
Ran did not make his own determination, but relied on others.[/color]

I am not denying Bradley anything.  He is free to answer your question, even if it contains mistaken information.  

You, however, did try to deny everyone else from responding to your question.

No I didn't, I asked a specific individual to answer a question that was directed solely at him, that related to a statement made by that individual and ONLY that individual.[/color] 

Why haven't you answered the question I specifically asked you regarding how Piping Rock is consistent and uniformly characteristic of NGLA ?

[Jeff_Brauer]

Whoah, Jeff! 

I don't have the Barker sketch or report, just his very brief letter to the Committee, distributed to the membership, mentioning the sketch and report.  I've yet to see the information necessary to attribute any specific input in the routing and design of Merion East. 

I am about to gain access to a location which may be the last remaining likely place for the Barker and Macdonald reports.  But I don't have much confidence that either will be found.

Wayne,

Sorry, I misread your original post on it then.  Oh well.

[Bradley Anderson]

Patrick,

Are you asking me if I find The Creek and Yale to be consistently and uniformly characteristic of MacDonald? I have to answer by saying that I have never been to either of those courses. And I should also say that I have never been to Merion either. Maybe someday!

But my goodness in every picture I have ever seen of the MacDonald golf courses, and Merion, there are no similarities at all in the contours.

Could it be that MacDonald did design Merion, but Seth Raynor didn't build it? Hmmm. Nah.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Patrick,

Are you asking me if I find The Creek and Yale to be consistently and uniformly characteristic of MacDonald? I have to answer by saying that I have never been to either of those courses. And I should also say that I have never been to Merion either. Maybe someday!

But my goodness in every picture I have ever seen of the MacDonald golf courses, and Merion, there are no similarities at all in the contours.

If you saw pictures of # 3 at Merion and some of the MRB's redans, you'd change your mind.

In addition, most of the pictures you've seen of CBM courses were probably of the template holes.

How many have seen pictures of the non-template holes ?[/color]

Could it be that MacDonald did design Merion, but Seth Raynor didn't build it? Hmmm. Nah.

As I said earlier, I'm intriqued by the role Francis played and if he and Raynor connected prior to and during the Merion project.

Drainage and engineering are an integral part of designing and constructing a decent golf course, hence as engineers, their roles would seem to be significant.[/color]

[Mike_Cirba]

Patrick,

There's no way in hell that Bradley would change his mind if he saw the 3rd hole at Merion. 

I saw the hole for the past 25 years and until the thread a few years back I had no idea that anyone would ever be such a misinformed blockhead to even suggest that it was a redan. 

And yes, yes...I do know Lesley and Findlay said it.   They must have been drinking the Christmas party punch and chasing the petticoats;

"My dear Mrs. Fenstermeier, would you like to take a walk...I've a lovely redan to show you."   

She probably thought he was referring to some type of French Provincial furniture. 







"Confound you Wilson!   That's not a blasted redan you nincompoop....and you call that an Alps?!?....I'm going back to NGLA and taking my sketches with me." 

[Patrick_Mucci]

Patrick,

There's no way in hell that Bradley would change his mind if he saw the 3rd hole at Merion. 

Yes, he would, as would any prudent person.[/color]

I saw the hole for the past 25 years and until the thread a few years back I had no idea that anyone would ever be such a misinformed blockhead to even suggest that it was a redan. 

That's because you lack architectural insight, plus, you're a lefty, so everything looks different to you. [/color]

And yes, yes...I do know Lesley and Findlay said it.   They must have been drinking the Christmas party punch and chasing the petticoats;

And MacDonald, Robert Trent Jones and Tom Doak too ?

It's obvious to everyone but you and Wayno.[/color]

Rather than post a photo of the only Redan with water as a backround, why not post photos of elevated redans, like Piping Rock and others.

Or, you're beloved 11th at LACC which you argued strenuously, that it was a redan.  Or, the 8th at The Creek or the 7th at Sleepy Hollow.

Let's see the wide variety of redans and compare them with # 3 at Merion.

If Charles Blair MacDonald categorized it as a Redan, that's good enough for me.

The fact that RTJ and Tom Doak agree cements the issue.

[Jim Nugent]

George Bahto, some questions you seem in better position to answer than most others on this site...

1.  Do you know of any CBM courses that only have one, two or three templates?

2.  Do you know if CBM built any Redans with greens that slope back to front?

3.  Do you know if CBM designed any courses without Raynor, after the two started working together at NGLA?

4.  Banks gives Raynor credit for designing and building Yale.  The Yale Golf Committee says the same thing, and describes CBM as an advisor.  Do you agree?

Thanks for any insights you can give.

[George_Bahto]

To Jim Nugent, for what it's worth:

George Bahto, some questions you seem in better position to answer than most others on this site...

1. Do you know of any CBM courses that only have one, two or three templates?

No - but perhaps on a nine hole course there might be one - Roselle CC here in NJ comes to mind


2. Do you know if CBM built any Redans with greens that slope back to front?

No - but Banks sort of “flirted” with a few

3. Do you know if CBM designed any courses without Raynor, after the two started working together at NGLA?

I think Macdonald designed the first four courses with hardly any input from Raynor - Piping Rock, Sleepy Hollow, St Louis and Old White ...... CBM may also have designed the Shinnecock redo without or with a little Raynor input and when they got to the next major course, Lido, he let Raynor feed a fair amount of input into the design. Raynor’s input at Mid Ocean is a grey area as far as I’m concerned.

After the first few courses I would say Macdonald sort of gave the overview, suggested a lot and left to play golf with his friends and work on “improvements” at National, letting Raynor do his thing (which was basically the same as Macdonald anyhow but perhaps not as bold). I do not think Charlie Macdonald was one to just hang around during the entire design and construction phases.

4. Banks gives Raynor credit for designing and building Yale. The Yale Golf Committee says the same thing, and describes CBM as an advisor. Do you agree?

For the most part, yes. But Macdonald was on the board and with that blue ribbon group, I’m sure there is a lot of CBM influence on the Yale course.

There is no way of knowing “exactly” what happened of course

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