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George_Bahto

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Two or three years before The Evangelist of Golf was published I saw the article Henry Whigham wrote about his father-in-law Charles Macdonald just after Charlie had passed away. It is framed, under glass and hangs just to the left of the front desk at The National’s clubhouse.

The 3,200+ word article was written as a eulogy and cited the many deeds of Macdonald.

Reading it I came on a paragraph about the courses CBM and Raynor were involved with over the years.

I’ll post some it below and I’ll include a paragraph or so before and after the paragraph in question so you can see it is not taken out of context.

What caught my attention was the following:

“The Macdonald-Raynor courses became famous all over America. Among the most famous are Piping Rock, the Merion Cricket Club at Philadelphia, the Country Club of St. Louis, two beautiful courses at White Sulphur, the Lido (literally poured out of the lagoon), and that equally amazing Yale course at New Haven, which was hewn out of rock and forest at an expense of some seven hundred thousand dollars.”

(These are all courses Macdonald had major input on)

I called Gil (Philadelphia) and Tom Paul (same) and perhaps called Mike Cirba (can’t remember) and asked them if there was anything at Merion that could be construed as the work of Macdonald/Raynor.

They both answered that there was nothing there that could be traced to their work.

At the time I knew little about Merion and certainly did not know what had transpired over the years at Merion and how it evolved into the magnificent course it  became.

My sole interest was to follow through on what I read in the Whigham piece.

I’ve got 90 - 100 courses to review and Merion, to me, was another course on a long list (at the time).

Loosely kept records abound at most of these clubs, and as anyone knows who has researched clubs and course knows, it is hard to get a lot of facts straight and find out what actually hit the ground at these clubs.

My research is and has always been and my course reviews has always been about the original courses - the original concept of the architect.

What happens over the years beyond what was originally there, I’ll leave to someone else to figure out.

So there I was with “Merion Cricket Club” - no answer, until lately (a million words later)

I’ve turned up about 35 courses Raynor never got credit for and a couple Macdonald never got credit for (whatever that means) so this was just added to a list of “possibles.”

Here are a few paragraphs from the Whigham article and you can do with it whatever you please.

Article in part:

*   *

“I went out with Macdonald to ride over the land which is now the National, and on coming back to the Shinnecock Club for lunch we found four elderly members awaiting us with dire prophecies of what would happen if we selected a site so near their own club, one of the first three golf clubs in America and the most fashionable. Yet on that first Saturday of September in 1907 there were only four old members in their sixties or seventies in the clubhouse, and they confessed that they had to contribute a pretty penny each year to keep things going.   

The very next year on the first Saturday of September I counted over fifty players at Shinnecock, many young people among them. The fame the National had spread so far beyond Long Island that golfers from everywhere came to took over the project, and Shinnecock, instead of being hurt by the proximity of the National, had taken on a new lease of life.

Clubs all over the country asked Macdonald to remodel their courses. Since he was every inch an amateur, golf architecture for him was entirely a labor of love, and it was quite impossible for him to do all that was asked of him. So he used to send Seth Raynor to do the groundwork, and he himself corrected the plans.

Raynor had an extraordinary career as a golf architect. He was a surveyor in Southampton whom Macdonald had called in to read the contour maps he had brought from abroad. Raynor knew nothing about golf and had never hit a ball on any links, but he had a marvelous eye for a country. Having helped lay out the eighteen great holes on the National, he was able to adapt them to almost any topography. The Macdonald-Raynor courses became famous all over America. Among the most famous are Piping Rock, the Merion Cricket Club at Philadelphia, the Country Club of St. Louis, two beautiful courses at White Sulphur, the Lido (literally poured out of the lagoon), and that equally amazing Yale course at New Haven, which was hewn out of rock and forest at an expense of some seven hundred thousand dollars. From coast to coast and from Canadian border to Florida you will find Macdonald courses. And in hundreds of places he never heard of you will discover reproductions of the Redan and the Eden and the Alps.

Not only did the great links spring into existence by the magic of the Macdonald touch, but others were started independently with the idea of emulating the National. Pine Valley is almost a contemporary. The late George Crump discovered a curious outcrop of sand dunes in New Jersey only forty minutes out of Philadelphia and immediately set out to build a super-links out of his own inner consciousness. He did ask Macdonald to look it over in its early stages, and followed a few of his suggestions, but to all intents and purposes Pine Valley was a George Crump creation and a noble work of golf architecture.

Twenty years ago Pine Valley was the chief rival of the two outstanding Macdonald creations, the National and the Lido. “  it continues on
*    *

Now, Henry Whigham was a brilliant man:

for 25 years  - 1910 - 1935 - he was the editor-in-chief of Town & Country magazine

a 2-time U S Amateur Champion

He wrote 4 books   
1.   How to Play Golf  (1898)
2.   The Persian Problem
3.   Korea and Manchuria
4.   The New Deal: English and American

Henry Whigham was born in Scotland and graduated from Queen's College, Oxford 1893

C B Macdonald knew his father and urged Whigham to come to US in same year 1893 for Colombian Exposition

Whigham, H J Tweedle, Robert Foulis, and James Foulis designed Onwentia Club at Lake Forest, IL

1896 Whigham was drama critic at Chicago Tribune as well as teacher of English & Economics at Lake Forest College

1898 to 1905 correspondent - Spanish American War for Chicago Trib & London Standard

1906 to 1907 correspondent - Boer War, Boxer Uprising and Russo-Japanese War for London Morning

1907 assisted Macdonald in design of the National

He worked with his father in law on a few other projects

In 1907 Henry married Francis Macdonald, Charlie’s daughter

.... and was very often one of Macdonald’s a traveling and vacation companion (along with Judge Morgan O’Brien)

On the main wall in National’s library are three very large portraits:

Charlie, obviously the largest, centered over the fireplace, Morgan O’Brien to the left of CBM and Henry Whigham to Macdonald right (a place of honor?).

So aside from being “family” Henry Whigham was held in high regard not only by his father-in-law but in the world in general.

I include this Whigham information in this thread to show he was not someone on the fringe of all these years of events and when he mentions the Cricket Club, what should someone believe?

"The Evangelist of Golf" was the title of the Whigham article/eulogy which is where I got the title for my book.

My book was published in 2002 so I probably happened across this Whigham article three years before that.

The entire article is in the back of my book beginning on page 263 if anyone cares to read it.

I DO NOT intend to be drawn into this lengthy discussion about Merion. You fellas can continue the “food-fight-for-facts”  - I won’t go there.
If a player insists on playing his maximum power on his tee-shot, it is not the architect's intention to allow him an overly wide target to hit to but rather should be allowed this privilege of maximum power except under conditions of exceptional skill.
   Wethered & Simpson

TEPaul

Re: Macdonald and Merion: to think I may have started it long ago
« Reply #1 on: May 06, 2008, 05:07:43 PM »
George:

In my opinion, you did not start these now many threads about Merion and particularly about Macdonald's roll in Merion. Tom MacWood did that in early 2003 and his thread that started it is no father back then on about the 10th page now. It was bumped back up a few times over the years with some others from him about "legends" and "the status quo". But I think that's the first one along with a few others off of it that followed which probably generated these ones now with all that's happened. Take a look at it. It's entitled "Re; Macdonald and Merion", and you will see what I mean.

Kirk Gill

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Re: Macdonald and Merion: to think I may have started it long ago
« Reply #2 on: May 06, 2008, 05:42:46 PM »
Mr. Bahto - thank you for writing about Mr. Whigham on this board. I am curious about him, and in one of the Merion threads I asked if he was the same H.J. Whigham who was the editor of the Metropolitan, a fine NLE magazine out of New York City. You do not mention this publication in your list of Whigham's accomplishments, so I wonder if he was the same man. If so, he served as an editor for John Reed prior to his involvement in the Russian Revolution, and was a prominent early 20th century journalist. It is, frankly, his listing of Merion as a MacDonald design on the obituary you quoted that is the single most persuasive bit of evidence of larger role for MacDonald at Merion than history had previously assigned him.

Thanks for this additional information.
"After all, we're not communists."
                             -Don Barzini

Lou_Duran

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Re: Macdonald and Merion: to think I may have started it long ago
« Reply #3 on: May 06, 2008, 06:38:23 PM »
George,

I understand your hesitancy to jump in.  Without picking sides, perhaps you can address the following questions I have.

1.  During the relevant timeframe, Macdonald was one of the most important personalities in golf as an amateur player, golf designer, and official of the organizing and rules making body (that became the USGA).  It would seem to me that Merion would benefit greatly from publicly associating itself with CBM, and that if he was indeed a major contributor to the course's design, that Merion would be using this fact to its fullest advantage.  Why do you think that there is but a single attribution (Whigham's) of Merion to Macdonald?  In your extensive research into CBM and Raynor, have you come across any other references which give you reason to think that they played a greater role than the accepted historical record reflects?

2.  I was under the impression that Merion was a course of consequence from early on.  From Whigham's article you excerpted,  "Twenty years ago Pine Valley was the chief rival of the two outstanding Macdonald creations, the National and the Lido. "; if he truly believed that Merion was a "Macdonald-Raynor" course, isn't it odd that he did not include it with NGLA and Lido to lend additional gravitas to his father-in-law's record?  After all, having three courses of one's design comparable to one by another is 50% better than two to one.

3.  Based on your knowledge of CBM's personality and public demeanor, do you think that he would have remained quiet while Wilson was receiving the accolades for Merion had he (Macdonald) in fact been responsible for its design?  With considerable notoriety, didn't he get the characterization of the first national amateur tournament changed largely because he failed to win?  It seems to me that he would have protested loudly if he felt slighted over such an important matter as the creation of one of the elite courses in the U.S., specially so close to his own backyard.

On another matter, when is the sequel to "Evangelist" coming out?

 


Mike_Cirba

Re: Macdonald and Merion: to think I may have started it long ago
« Reply #4 on: May 06, 2008, 06:47:15 PM »
George,

Thanks for that.

I find it curious that the passage in question seems to be discussing Seth Raynor's contributions, and then veers into mentioning Merion.   To date, I've never heard of any contention of Raynor's involvement at Merion, or that he was ever on site?

Mike Sweeney

Re: Macdonald and Merion: to think I may have started it long ago
« Reply #5 on: May 06, 2008, 07:07:09 PM »
Holy crap!

Standing at 5'10", George Bahto comes in cold off the bench to hit a three point fadaway banker from Piscataway, NJ to send the game into overtime!

Nice post!  ;)

John Mayhugh

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Macdonald and Merion: to think I may have started it long ago
« Reply #6 on: May 06, 2008, 08:21:51 PM »
Hey we needed another Merion thread! ;D

Seriously......while I doubt there is ever going to be conclusive evidence to bridge the great divide, it is nice to hear from George on this. This eulogy story along with David's essay is enough to make me at least a partial believer. I think I'll refrain from any more Merion thread reading until the one titled "CBM Merion routing discovered."

corey miller

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Re: Macdonald and Merion: to think I may have started it long ago
« Reply #7 on: May 06, 2008, 08:41:12 PM »

Bahto 5'10"?  I geuss that short hole green at Old Macdonald must be another 5000 sq ft bigger than I thought based on the posted picture.

Steve_ Shaffer

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Re: Macdonald and Merion: to think I may have started it long ago
« Reply #8 on: May 06, 2008, 10:10:09 PM »
George,

Not having read your book, other than Whigham's writing as above, were there any writings or plans by CBM about Merion? If none, why didn't CBM himself claim credit for something more than the "advice" attributed to him by Wilson and his committee?
"Some of us worship in churches, some in synagogues, some on golf courses ... "  Adlai Stevenson
Hyman Roth to Michael Corleone: "We're bigger than US Steel."
Ben Hogan “The most important shot in golf is the next one”

Mike_Cirba

Re: Macdonald and Merion: to think I may have started it long ago
« Reply #9 on: May 06, 2008, 10:23:45 PM »
George,

Not having read your book, other than Whigham's writing as above, were there any writings or plans by CBM about Merion? If none, why didn't CBM himself claim credit for something more than the "advice" attributed to him by Wilson and his committee?

Mike_Cirba

Re: Macdonald and Merion: to think I may have started it long ago
« Reply #10 on: May 06, 2008, 10:33:02 PM »
George,

Touching on what Steve asks, you are the world's expert on CB Macdonald and I know you've been an absolute, resolute, committed researcher in searching every nook and cranny and running down every lead for the true story of his life and you've done all of us architectural maniacs a great service in that regard.

I do have to ask, however, if you've ever come across anything...even a hint or mention...in all of the reams of documentation and notes and drawings and pictures and articles you've been through...anything at all beyond Whigham's funereal mention, that mentioned Merion.

Similarly, I do have to very respectfully ask...of any of those courses where you've found some involvement or attribution by Macdonald, and I realize you've found some tremendous stuff here that's given us a greater understanding of his achievements...but have any of these courses had even remotely the grand popular plaudits and notoriety that Merion achieved, almost right out of the gate...

The 1916 US Amateur...the 1924 US Amateur...the Women's Am..(forgive me if I forget the year), almost instant recognition as one of the best courses on the planet...the 1934 US Open...ALL within CB's lifetime.

Now George...you probably know the man like a long lost brother, but does it seem remotely conceivable to you that he wouldn't have made some mention of it if he had indeed designed that uniquely unbelievable golf course back in 1910??   If he had, why does the course exhibit virtually none of the familiar holes that we have come to spot, and love and compare and contrast.   Certainly the "redan" and "alps" at Merion that have been cited stretch the normal definition almost beyond recognition, and as the world's expert on the number of variations of those holes, I think you'd have to admit that they exist at the far, outer fringes of those definitions.

I'm sorry to put you on the spot my good friend, but I think your opinion is certainly a very important one on this issue and any insight you can shed based on your studies...or any evidence you can present to collaborate what David is asserting...is of significant import.

Thank you.
« Last Edit: May 06, 2008, 10:36:24 PM by MPC »

Patrick_Mucci

Re: Macdonald and Merion: to think I may have started it long ago
« Reply #11 on: May 06, 2008, 10:48:39 PM »
MPC,

Why do you equate skilled golfers with NO architectural experience with architects with more than adequate experience ?

Lou Duran,

LIDO was an engineering marvel, a wonder of the golfing world.

To equate it to almost any other course would be like comparing apples and oranges.

Mike Cirba,

Just because you haven't found references to Seth Raynor's travels to Merion, doesn't preclude that he may have visited the site.

We know from past experience, that just because it was reported that Wilson traveled to study the great courses of the UK prior to 1911, doesn't mean he really did.

Just because you don't know that something occured, doesn't mean you can automatically rule out the possibility that it may have occured.

I posed the issue earlier.

I'd be surprised if, after CBM's return from his initial visit, that he didn't encourage SR to visit the site.  Then again, SR may have never set foot on Merion.

Perhaps someone will determine whether or not that happened at some point in the future.

It's also a possibility that Francis and Raynor communicated with one another about the on-site issues.

I'm intriqued by the role Francis may have played in the routing and design of Merion.

After all Cornish and Whitten seem to give him co-design credit.


George_Bahto

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Re: Macdonald and Merion: to think I may have started it long ago
« Reply #12 on: May 06, 2008, 10:50:48 PM »
The mention of Merion in the Whigham piece is the only place I have ever seen any mention of that course. That's why it really surprised me.
If a player insists on playing his maximum power on his tee-shot, it is not the architect's intention to allow him an overly wide target to hit to but rather should be allowed this privilege of maximum power except under conditions of exceptional skill.
   Wethered & Simpson

Mike_Cirba

Re: Macdonald and Merion: to think I may have started it long ago
« Reply #13 on: May 06, 2008, 11:23:27 PM »
The mention of Merion in the Whigham piece is the only place I have ever seen any mention of that course. That's why it really surprised me.

Thank you, George.

I understand that this oddly contentious emotional issue on this site has certainly put you in a strangely uncomfortable position, given your extensive research and knowledge of Macdonald's comings, goings, and architectural accomplishments.   I certainly appreciate you coming forward to offer us the benefits of your research and findings.

I'm sure you also know that many times this stuff is not cut and dried, black and white, and subject only to what "facts" remain to be found, or are even findable.

When we base cases on not being able to find a name on a Shipping Manifest from 100 years ago, I think you'd agree that we are on uncertain, slippery terrain indeed.   Similarly, when we hang onto unproven myths for their comfortable compaction of events, we are also probably doing a disservice to history.

However, I think in the absence of hard evidence to the contrary, I believe you'd agree that we have to err on the side of what those folks believed and wrote about their contemporaries, rather than some careful attempt at reconstruction of events based on what particles of evidence still exist a century later.

When Merion was conceived and built, there was no YouTube to chronicle the events...there was no CNN or GolfChannel to cover it...there was no computerized log of fingerprinted ID's cross-referenced to validate an overseas voyage...my lord, there wasn't even the requirement for a valid first name, nationality, age, occupation, country of origin, nationality, marital status, or destination!

That is what has been seen and proven time and again in this thread.

The reason it hasn't been put to bed, or come to peaceful resolution, is simply because enough gaps still exist between discernible "Facts" to make remotely credible cases on both sides of the aisle.

However, unless we all spend the rest of our lives chasing ghosts, seeking to find some piece of tiny, somehow overlooked minutae that will finally put all these questions to rest, at the cost of our own present lives and understandings...and ultimately...to what real end??

...we will likely always have some degree of magic, of mystery, and ultimately...of faith...in our forefathers and the way they understood and told this beautiful and inspiring story;

..and ultimately, I have to ask everyone out there who has followed these threads...has anything been uncovered that sends Hugh Wilson and his creation and building of Merion to the dustbin of history only to be replaced by another equally potent myth...that one single man turned over the course of golf in America through his own force and vision?

I sense that both of their ghosts are equally amused and disappointed at the lot of us.
« Last Edit: May 06, 2008, 11:26:25 PM by MPC »

DMoriarty

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Re: Macdonald and Merion: to think I may have started it long ago
« Reply #14 on: May 07, 2008, 02:27:41 AM »
George,

Thanks for the terrific post.

The thing that shocks me the most about the quote is that H.J. Whigham was THERE.  He knew whether or not CBM routed and/or designed Merion East.   Yet his views are completely ignored.   Worse, he is caricatured and ridiculed mercilessly on these boards, to the point that the mere mention of  his name might evoke days of insults, snickers, and innuendo. 

As far as we know, Alan Wilson was not at all involved, yet Alan Wilson's letter, written shortly after Hugh Wilson's unfortunate death, is treated as if it was gospel.  Not only must we believe every word of it (which I do, except for the timing of the trip) we also must conclude it says much more than the words on the page.  Yet H.J. Whigham is treated as an absolute joke, a wimp, a sissy, a lackey, a liar.  We are expected to simply dismiss his words in their entirety. 

Why is that?   

The mention of Merion in the Whigham piece is the only place I have ever seen any mention of that course. That's why it really surprised me.

I know you are familiar with it (it may even be quoted in your book) but I thought I'd mention that Macdonald's article on the Redan holds Merion's Redan up as an example of a mirror image of a Redan.  As I recall  other holes are all Macdonald's except for the Pine Valley hole at  with Redan principles in the green.   Given that Whigham did say that Crump followed a few of Macdonald's suggestions, even this is an interesting mention.

The quote mentions Raynor but the context suggests that Whigham was listing courses designed by Macdonald and/or Raynor.   At least to me it does.   

Those of you who haven't should buy George's book and check it our yourself.   
_____________________




Mike Cirba,  you entirely misrepresent my position and the position of others in your last post.   I suggest you let us speak for ourselves and take us at our word. 
_____________________
« Last Edit: May 07, 2008, 02:33:20 AM by DMoriarty »
Golf history can be quite interesting if you just let your favorite legends go and allow the truth to take you where it will.
--Tom MacWood (1958-2012)

Jeff_Brauer

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Re: Macdonald and Merion: to think I may have started it long ago
« Reply #15 on: May 07, 2008, 08:30:13 AM »
George,

No need to feel bad! You brought out source material which is what it it.

The debate on who did what should be fun and enlightening and not as emotional as it has gotten.  But again, thats not you.

In case you aren't wallowing in the longer threads, I transpose what I just wrote on another thread, for your comment and review:



I reread the Whigham article on CBM last night.  It doesn't seem to overly promote CBM. In some ways, it kind of said if he didn't move golf forward in America, someone else might have.  The mention of Merion Cricket Club by Whigham is kind of odd in that context, because there was no need to embellish CBM in death. His life was full.

I kind of wonder if, just like the process of gca was in its infancy, the process of attribution was also somewhat ill defined in those days.  Whigham mentions CBM going to PV early, but no more.  He went to Merion (or had them at NGLA) three times.  Could it be that in Whighams (and CBM) mind, that "the third time was a charm" in their minds of deciding what they designed and what they didn't, whether that was right or wrong by current standards?

With Raynor on hand for his other designs, Bahto describes how he did all the advance work, CBM corrected all the drawings, applied the famous template holes and of course, Raynor built them.  Its quite possible (George could confirm, perhaps) that CBM didn't spend more than three days on many of his designs other than the National!  Thus, over time, he believed he had designed it. Or, at least Whigham did.

Did your research uncover the actual working methods of CBM and total days spent?  Would I be wrong in thinking that in CBM's mind, three days would be enough to shape the future of Merion through the shear force of his personality? :D
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

Jeff_Brauer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Macdonald and Merion: to think I may have started it long ago
« Reply #16 on: May 07, 2008, 09:38:30 AM »
Random thought about attribution of golf courses:

I recall Tom Doak explaining the Sebonic routing process.  He did a lot of plans and JN supposedly approved and tweaked them.  There was a lot of discussion about who should get credit.  TD pointed out that in reality, JN presumes he should get equal billing just because in essence, what TD did was replace one of JN's design associates in the intial routing process.

Going back to Merion, CBM might just have easily felt that the Merion land committee replaced what Raynor did for him in doing ground work, etc. and may have figured their visit to NGLA in winter was for him to "correct the drawings" and put in his template ideas as he did with Seth.

Now, he may have figured since his construction guys didn't build Merion, he didn't have full control, and as we all know, it didn't come out looking like Raynor was in the field, with perhaps the original 12th hole being an exception.  I guess I don't know when the "crude features" got eliminated, but I know it was before 1916 because the course looked damn good in those aerial photos posted on another thread.

Of course, that doesn't explain why Whigham went against his opinion and claimed that CBM did design MCC upon his death in 1939.

I am just reaching a bit to figure out how one entity could see things one way, and another a completely different way. Of cousre, if you have been through a divorce, you know such things can happen!
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

George_Bahto

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Re: Macdonald and Merion: to think I may have started it long ago
« Reply #17 on: May 07, 2008, 10:47:06 AM »
Jeff - as far as I can tell there was no pattern to what Macdonald did in when he "designed" a course - never a mention of the process. He didn’t really “design”very many anyhow - though offering lots of “suggestions."
If a player insists on playing his maximum power on his tee-shot, it is not the architect's intention to allow him an overly wide target to hit to but rather should be allowed this privilege of maximum power except under conditions of exceptional skill.
   Wethered & Simpson

Mike_Cirba

Re: Macdonald and Merion: to think I may have started it long ago
« Reply #18 on: May 07, 2008, 11:43:10 AM »
The thing that shocks me the most about the quote is that H.J. Whigham was THERE.  He knew whether or not CBM routed and/or designed Merion East.   Yet his views are completely ignored.   Worse, he is caricatured and ridiculed mercilessly on these boards, to the point that the mere mention of  his name might evoke days of insults, snickers, and innuendo. 

As far as we know, Alan Wilson was not at all involved, yet Alan Wilson's letter, written shortly after Hugh Wilson's unfortunate death, is treated as if it was gospel.  Not only must we believe every word of it (which I do, except for the timing of the trip) we also must conclude it says much more than the words on the page.  Yet H.J. Whigham is treated as an absolute joke, a wimp, a sissy, a lackey, a liar.  We are expected to simply dismiss his words in their entirety. 


Those of you who haven't should buy George's book and check it our yourself.   
_____________________


David,

How could you possibly infer that Alan Wilson wasn't "there"?   Was Robert Lesley there?   How about Rodman Griscom?   Francis?   Lloyd??

I mean David, I think the supposition that because you haven't found documentation of their day-to-day whereabouts during that time frame 100 years later means they weren't there is just a real non-starter.   These men were the officials of the club, who were involved in a HUGE effort to find land, raise money, buy land, plan and build a golf course.    I can't imagine what you think they were doing.

Merion was in the press and celebrated across all of golfland from its inception, through its famous championships, thru the Bobby Jones Grand Slam, through the 34 US Open...ALL during Macdonald and Whigham's lifetime...ALL while the press celebrated the achievements of Hugh Wilson.

Don't you think it's odd that neither Macdonald or Whigham EVER mentioned some architectural attribution until everyone was long since dead in 1939??   

I also think it's a non-starter to suggest that because George Bahto found some other MacRaynor courses that had not been properly attributed and they said nothing about them...at least as far as what's been found to date, is evidence that they might have done the same thing with Merion.

This was Merion...by all accounts the 2nd great course built in the U.S that hosted tons of prominent tournaments from the get go.   We're not talking about Gibson Island or some private retreat course.   It doesn't wash at all.

Melvyn Morrow

Re: Macdonald and Merion: to think I may have started it long ago
« Reply #19 on: May 07, 2008, 11:48:30 AM »
George Bahto
Sr Member of CGA.com
4 Stars, 1002 Posts

You have by your own omission pleaded guilty to starting the never ending story  Re: Macdonald and Merion: to think I may have started it long ago.

You have therefore been found guilty by the other 1,490 Members within the Discussion Group, plus another 7,240 million Honoured Guests.
Before sentencing, do you have anything that you would like to say in your defence that might persuade us to show some compassion and leniency for this grievous, nay, heinous debate that has been inflicted upon our glorious forum. Failure to grovel and prostrate yourself before Ran & Ben may also have dire consequences to your case and will result in the maximum sentence being levied.

The damage you may have done cannot at this moment in time be calculated in full, but to date Walter C, a two star, 114 Post member is seeking how to resign from our great Discussion Group. Black Caps and Black Balls have been mentioned so your full and detailed explanation within less that three words are required. Please be precise and detailed as it is the only way to help you in your hour of need.

By Order of The GCA Inquisition 

Please note that all evidence presented by Mr S Holmes has been removed as considered extremely biased (the old ones are always the best) and not relative to Mr D Moriarty.

Jeff_Brauer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Macdonald and Merion: to think I may have started it long ago
« Reply #20 on: May 07, 2008, 11:51:21 AM »
Mike,

Take out the part where Alan Wilson was there. I think what DM is pointing out is that all parties in this dispute take what they want from whatever quote they want.  

In the case of TePaul, he can easily believe that Whigham was glorifying his father in law's accomplishments at his death, perhaps blatantly lying, but will steadfastly deny that Alan Wilson had any inclination to do the same for his brother upon his death.  

While one may and the other may not, from this distance, its at least possible that both were glorifying or telling the truth as they knew it.  Neither satisfactorily solves the puzzle, they just contribute to it.

Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

George_Bahto

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Macdonald and Merion: to think I may have started it long ago
« Reply #21 on: May 07, 2008, 12:06:22 PM »
Melvyn:

"Before sentencing, do you have anything that you would like to say in your defence that might persuade us to show some compassion and leniency for this grievous, nay, heinous debate that has been inflicted upon our glorious forum"

No compassion asked !!    I plead absolutely GUILT and am ready and able (even at my advanced age) to deal with any sentence you, Ran and/or Ben hand out.

Listen, I've been married to the same lady for 56 years, had four daughters, who then had six straight girls - I can handle ANYTHING, fella! You can't hurt me   :'(
If a player insists on playing his maximum power on his tee-shot, it is not the architect's intention to allow him an overly wide target to hit to but rather should be allowed this privilege of maximum power except under conditions of exceptional skill.
   Wethered & Simpson

Mike_Cirba

Re: Macdonald and Merion: to think I may have started it long ago
« Reply #22 on: May 07, 2008, 12:41:57 PM »
Mike,

Take out the part where Alan Wilson was there. I think what DM is pointing out is that all parties in this dispute take what they want from whatever quote they want.  

In the case of TePaul, he can easily believe that Whigham was glorifying his father in law's accomplishments at his death, perhaps blatantly lying, but will steadfastly deny that Alan Wilson had any inclination to do the same for his brother upon his death.  

While one may and the other may not, from this distance, its at least possible that both were glorifying or telling the truth as they knew it.  Neither satisfactorily solves the puzzle, they just contribute to it.



Jeff,

The difference is that Alan Wilson was speaking what others had said and written all along.   Yesterday I produced a litany of them, and the fact is that trying to twist what words like "laid out" meant just doesn't wash.

Read how those terms were used then...over and over.   Everyone knew what they meant.

Read "Far and Sure"'s review of the opening of Merion where he states that Hugh Wilson and Committee "conceived the problems of the holes"   

Is that not golf course architecture?   How could Macdonald have routed a golf course if he didn't know what holes Hugh Wilson and COmmittee would "conceive of"??

Isn't "conception" the creative part, the artistic part of golf course architecture?   Isn't it that part that happens in the mind on not directing laborers pushing a plow while looking at someone else's ideas, someone else's "conception"?


Whigham's statement, whether a "misstatement" like Hillary Clinton's sniper fire, or simply a brain fart, or simply an effort at further aggrandizement is held up by NO other evidence to support it.


But, before we get into what that phrase conceive means, let me get some support here. ;)

con·ceive  (kn-sv)
v. con·ceived, con·ceiv·ing, con·ceives
v.tr.
1. To become pregnant with (offspring).
2. To form or develop in the mind; devise: conceive a plan to increase profits.
3. To apprehend mentally; understand: couldn't conceive the meaning of that sentence.
4. To be of the opinion that; think: didn't conceive such a tragedy could occur.
5. To begin or originate in a specific way: a political movement conceived in the ferment of the 1960s.
v.intr.
1. To form or hold an idea: Ancient peoples conceived of the earth as flat.
2. To become pregnant.
« Last Edit: May 07, 2008, 12:47:06 PM by MPC »

Melvyn Morrow

Re: Macdonald and Merion: to think I may have started it long ago
« Reply #23 on: May 07, 2008, 01:31:11 PM »
George
Sorry – Age is no defence, however two generations of females, is sufficient for us to accept your plea on the basis of diminished responsibilities, as you would not have had the opportunity of making any rational statement whatsoever on any subject.  :-[ :-[

In plain English, after 56 years of marriage and a household of women, we feel that that you have paid the penalty twice over. Mr George Bahto you are free to continue sharing your thoughts with us on the understanding that you take your long suffering wife out for an enjoyable and romantic meal.  8) :) 8) No need to post the details - please.  ::)

Back to the Merion debate - hey Guys can't we talk about Carts, Cart Tracks, Electronic and distance aids, sex aids - and to all into routing what about routing sheep?  :o ;D :D ::) :-\

Garland Bayley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Macdonald and Merion: to think I may have started it long ago
« Reply #24 on: May 07, 2008, 01:44:09 PM »
What I think this website needs now is a good Michelle Wie thread! ;)
"I enjoy a course where the challenges are contained WITHIN it, and recovery is part of the game  not a course where the challenge is to stay ON it." Jeff Warne

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