[TEPaul]

"My bad, it was late and I mis-typed.  I measured the 1913 map at 130 yards, not 100.  I've edited my post above."



Bryan:

You're damn straight that's your bad and I'm so relieved I caught it. Do you realize what this means? That post of yours could get on the Internet for the rest of time and everyone will think for time evermore that C. B. Macdonald created Merion East when he really may not have. That 30 yard mistake you put on there this morning could've changed the entire architectural history of one of the world's great courses for the rest of time.

WHOOOF-----that was close!

 

[Jeff_Brauer]

TePaul,

I have seen mistakes in project info get perpetuated by the internet for a long time.  For instance, it still comes up that I "designed Kemper Lakes" when in fact Killian and Nugent did.  But one person said it, a reporter wrote it, and for 20 years, it gets dug up by other reporters and reprinted without them bothering to wonder why its not listed on my web site, etc.

Depending on how a search engine works, some future researcher might hit on David's IMO piece, a post on this thread, or God knows what.  If the net allows the spread of information at lightspeed, I guess it equally has the capability of spreading disinformation at light speed X 2!  That will apparently make future research EVEN HARDER so you better get after it!

Seriously, I wonder if DM's piece was taken down, if it would stay in search engines forever?  Or, should Ran at least edit the section to add a forward that it, uh, stirred some controversy and that the opinions expressed have been refuted/debated elsewhere.  I know its an opinion piece, but based on the above, I wonder if internet sites will have some greater content checking/monitoring responsibilities in the future, to respond to the inherent technology?

[TEPaul]

"When the "approximate" road was eventually built, and if the only reason that the triangle measure say 100 yards was because it was only "approximate", don't you think the ENTIRE road would have been shifted to the left 30 yards, and not just that portion?"

MikeC:

I don't understand why you asked that. What they picked up from the development land for golf ground between the top of #15 down to #14 green and then gave back golf ground to the development from #14 green to below #14 tee had to basically even out. So why do you think the entire road from College Ave all the way down to Ardmore Ave should've been moved 30 yards left or west? 

[Mike_Cirba]

Tom

I think you misunderstood me.

I took Bryan to suggest that the only reason the triangle measured 100 yards in the 1910 drawing is because it was only approximately placed on the map.

I'm saying if that was the case, wouldn't they just have kept the basic curvilinear shape and adjusted the entire shebang 30 yards west?

But they didn't obviously and the road configuration obviously follows borrows and putbacks as was necessary to route the course...I.e. The Francis land swap sometime after the oroginal survey and associated scale drawing.

[TEPaul]

"But they didn't obviously and the road configuration obviously follows borrows and putbacks as was necessary to route the course...I.e. The Francis land swap sometime after the oroginal survey and associated scale drawing.

MikeC:

That's right. That's what I believe Francis' late night land swap idea was all about. On that 1910 proposed plan they had too much golf course ground for what they wanted between 14 tee and 14 green and not enough between 15 tee and 15 green.

[Mike_Cirba]

Exactly Tom, so quit being so mean and uncivil to me.

As we seem to be the only ones here who see this as obvious, I'm a bit concerned about the implications of that fact.


No emoticons were harmed in the making of this post,

[TEPaul]

"Might it be possible for you to at least post that portion of the minutes that 'completely disproves' things so everyone can judge for themselves?"

Andy:

No I can't, not at this time without permission from Wayne or the club. If you want to hear what I think happened with the creation of Merion, which is just my opinion only and not to be construed as proof, I'll consider it but I'm not going to reference those meeting minutes any more. If you don't want to hear my opinion without reference to those meeting minutes that's fine. Or everyone can just wait until a report is written and disseminated wherever that will be to see those transcribed meeting minutes. That's the way Wayne wants to do it right now and he's the member---it's up to him and/or the clubs, in my opinion, where it gets placed.

[DMoriarty]

Perhaps one of our esteemed researchers might check where Francis lived from 1909 until 1913.  He says he rode a bicycle about a mile to Gates' place with his idea.  On the 1913 RR map there are no estates named for Francis and there does not appear to be any subdivision housing within a mile of Gates' place.  If someone could check deeds from that time frame to place Gates and Francis, it might narrow down the possible range of dates (assuming that long after the fact, Francis remembered how far he rode the bike  )

Bryan,  I looked into this a while back.   According to the census, in May 1910 they lived about a mile apart.    My understanding is that Lloyd's Allgates was purchased in 1910, but I am not sure when he moved in.   Figuring this out would give us another way to infer the last date the bike ride could have taken place.   

The CBM letter suggests that Merion was concerned that the course would fit before the purchase.  One possible scenario is that as soon as Francis figured this out, Merion went ahead and agreed to purchase the land, the idea was relayed to the engineers who modified an old map with the new location of the road approximately drawn in.  (Recall that this had been announced in the newspaper the day before, so I supposed Merion's board wanted to get something out to the membership as quickly as possible.)

Bryan,

I am out of town and do not have my hard copy of the map, but I thought the distance was a bit over 100 yards, more like 110.  I believe they always measured to the middle of the road and Francis, an engineer, would have known this. 

Also, as I believe JES pointed out, don't the 15th green and 16th tee fit even into the corner even with the "approximate location of the road?" 

[TEPaul]

"I am not sure precision was involved. Its just a conceptual or illustrative plan of the proposed land division between golf and housing.  If they had the original boundary maps from the earlier land transactions, I don't think any measuring was required to draw it. I get the impression it is just an exhibit to give Merion members a general idea of what they were buying."

JeffB:

What do you mean illustrative drawing? That Nov. 15, 1910 map is a scale drawing of the 117 acres MCC secured for purchase for $85,000 for the golf course. The exact size and price of the land was mentioned in the two letters that went out from the president of MCC and Horatio Gates Lloyd the same day as the date on that map. And I would be very surprised if that map is not what Wilson and his committee's topo maps that they used to do the course were made from.

Horatio Gates Lloyd's Allgates was purchased in 1910 and was apparently ready for occuption in 1912.

[Mike_Cirba]

New York, June 29, 1910
Horatio G. Lloyd, Esq.
c/o Messrs. Drexel and Co.
Philadelphia, Pa

Dear Mr. Lloyd:

Mr. Whigham and I discussed the various merits of the land you propose buying, and we think it has some very desirable features.  The quarry and the brooks can be made much of.  What it lacks in abrupt mounds can be largely rectified.

We both think that your soil will produce a firm and durable turf through the fair green quickly.  The putting greens of course will need special treatment, as the grasses are much finer.

The most difficult problem you have to contend with is to get in eighteen holes that will be first class in the acreage you propose buying.  So far as we can judge, without a contour map before us, we are of the opinion that it can be done, provided you get a little more land near where you propose making your Club House.  The opinon that a long course is always the best course has been exploded.  A 6000 yd. course can be made really first class, and to my mind it is more desirable than a 6300 or a 6400 yd. course, particularly where the roll of the ball will not be long, because you cannot help with the soil you have on that property having heavy turf.  Of course it would be very fast when the summer baked it well.

The following is my idea of a  6000 yard course:

One 130 yard hole
One 160    "
One 190    "
One 220 yard to 240 yard hole,
One 500 yard hole,
Six 300 to 340 yard holes,
Five 360 to 420    "
Two 440 to 480    "

As regards drainage and treatment of soil, I think it would be wise for your Committee to confer with the Baltusrol Committee.  They had a very difficult drainage problem.  You have a very simple one.  Their drainage opinions will be valuable to you.  Further, I think their soil is very similar to yours, and it might be wise to learn from them the grasses that have proved most satisfactory though the fair green.

In the meantime, it will do no harm to cut a sod or two and send it to Washington for anlaysis of the natural grasses, those indigenous to the soil.

We enjoyed our trip to Philadelphia very much, and were very pleased to meet your Committee.

With kindest regards to you all, believe me,

Yours very truly,

(signed)  Charles B. Macdonald


David,

Please re-read the Macdonald letter and then let me know what you think they were being asked.   M&W clearly stated that they couldn't tell if it was either enough land or whether a first class golf course on it without even a topographical map available to them.   So, they were going by gut feel of the general dimensions of the property, and suggested that logical next steps before going out and buying the property were to get soil samples and send them for analysis and perhaps talking to Baltusrol, another inland course, about drainage.   

Any other reading of this letter is pure supposition and wishful thinking and trying to put things in there that it clearly does not contain. 

In fact, if Lloyd and the Site Committee, who were charged with finding a suitable site had really asked M&W to do more at that time such as produce a routing as you imply, then this letter would really be a pretty obvious polite brushoff, don't you think? 


Despite this non-committal letter, the Site Committee went ahead anyway and recommended the land for puchase to the Board of Governors.   From your IMO paper;

"After inspecting the site, Macdonald provided his (and Whigham’s) written opinion “as to what could be done with the property.”[12]  With Macdonald’s letter, the Site Committee now had two written recommendations about what to do with the property; first from Barker, and then from Macdonald and Whigham. The Committee must have preferred the latter, because according to Merion’s Board, the Site Committee’s report “embodied Macdonald’s letter,” and the Committee’s recommendation was based largely upon the views expressed by Macdonald. "

What the letter actually said is as follows;

"After the visit of these gentlemen Mr. Macdonald wrote to a member of the Committee, expressing the views of himself and Mr. Wigham (sic), as to what could be done with the property.   The report, as made to the Board, embodied Mr. Macdonald's letter, but it was not written for publication.   We do not, therefore, feel justified in printing it.   We can properly say, however, that it was, in general terms, favorable, and the Committee based its recommendation largely upon their opinion."


On July 2, 1910, after over three years of construction NGLA was just finally just coming into playability.   

From "The Evangelist of Golf";

"On July 2 1910, 14 months before the official opening, the courses was finally ready for a test run.  An informal invitational tournament was held for a select group of fouders and friends invited to participate."

"It was noted the tournament served the purpose of revealing any design shortcoming that needed correcting."

As seen above, the course didn't have it's official opening until 1911.   You have ripped me a new one for quoting these timelines previously and I'm not sure what evidence you have that contradicts George Bahto's book that clearly documents these timelines.

In any case, I think M&W had their hands and plates quite full at the time that they were being asked to determine the suitability of the property (remember that the records state that Merion was still looking a a number of properties at the time) for golf for Merion in June/July 1910.   For them to come out for a day at Rodman Griscom's invitation was quite nice of them, actually.

This timeline also shows that not only was Macdonald not viewed universally as a great architect by this time, but that many of his friends and best players had not even seen the course at NGLA prior to then.   They knew he had been studying, and working on it, but many had no idea of how great it was at that point.

Is there anything here that I haven't represented accurately?

[DMoriarty]

New York, June 29, 1910
Horatio G. Lloyd, Esq.
c/o Messrs. Drexel and Co.
Philadelphia, Pa

Dear Mr. Lloyd:

Mr. Whigham and I discussed the various merits of the land you propose buying, and we think it has some very desirable features.  The quarry and the brooks can be made much of.  What it lacks in abrupt mounds can be largely rectified.

We both think that your soil will produce a firm and durable turf through the fair green quickly.  The putting greens of course will need special treatment, as the grasses are much finer.

The most difficult problem you have to contend with is to get in eighteen holes that will be first class in the acreage you propose buying.  So far as we can judge, without a contour map before us, we are of the opinion that it can be done, provided you get a little more land near where you propose making your Club House.  The opinon that a long course is always the best course has been exploded.  A 6000 yd. course can be made really first class, and to my mind it is more desirable than a 6300 or a 6400 yd. course, particularly where the roll of the ball will not be long, because you cannot help with the soil you have on that property having heavy turf.  Of course it would be very fast when the summer baked it well.

The following is my idea of a  6000 yard course:

One 130 yard hole
One 160    "
One 190    "
One 220 yard to 240 yard hole,
One 500 yard hole,
Six 300 to 340 yard holes,
Five 360 to 420    "
Two 440 to 480    "

As regards drainage and treatment of soil, I think it would be wise for your Committee to confer with the Baltusrol Committee.  They had a very difficult drainage problem.  You have a very simple one.  Their drainage opinions will be valuable to you.  Further, I think their soil is very similar to yours, and it might be wise to learn from them the grasses that have proved most satisfactory though the fair green.

In the meantime, it will do no harm to cut a sod or two and send it to Washington for anlaysis of the natural grasses, those indigenous to the soil.

We enjoyed our trip to Philadelphia very much, and were very pleased to meet your Committee.

With kindest regards to you all, believe me,

Yours very truly,

(signed)  Charles B. Macdonald


David,

Please re-read the Macdonald letter and then let me know what you think they were being asked.   M&W clearly stated that they couldn't tell if it was either enough land or whether a first class golf course on it without even a topographical map available to them.   So, they were going by gut feel of the general dimensions of the property, and suggested that logical next steps before going out and buying the property were to get soil samples and send them for analysis and perhaps talking to Baltusrol, another inland course, about drainage.   

Any other reading of this letter is pure supposition and wishful thinking and trying to put things in there that it clearly does not contain. 

In fact, if Lloyd and the Site Committee, who were charged with finding a suitable site had really asked M&W to do more at that time such as produce a routing as you imply, then this letter would really be a pretty obvious polite brushoff, don't you think? 


Despite this non-committal letter, the Site Committee went ahead anyway and recommended the land for puchase to the Board of Governors.   From your IMO paper;

"After inspecting the site, Macdonald provided his (and Whigham’s) written opinion “as to what could be done with the property.”[12]  With Macdonald’s letter, the Site Committee now had two written recommendations about what to do with the property; first from Barker, and then from Macdonald and Whigham. The Committee must have preferred the latter, because according to Merion’s Board, the Site Committee’s report “embodied Macdonald’s letter,” and the Committee’s recommendation was based largely upon the views expressed by Macdonald. "

What the letter actually said is as follows;

"After the visit of these gentlemen Mr. Macdonald wrote to a member of the Committee, expressing the views of himself and Mr. Wigham (sic), as to what could be done with the property.   The report, as made to the Board, embodied Mr. Macdonald's letter, but it was not written for publication.   We do not, therefore, feel justified in printing it.   We can properly say, however, that it was, in general terms, favorable, and the Committee based its recommendation largely upon their opinion."


On July 2, 1910, after over three years of construction NGLA was just finally just coming into playability.   

From "The Evangelist of Golf";

"On July 2 1910, 14 months before the official opening, the courses was finally ready for a test run.  An informal invitational tournament was held for a select group of fouders and friends invited to participate."

"It was noted the tournament served the purpose of revealing any design shortcoming that needed correcting."

As seen above, the course didn't have it's official opening until 1911.   You have ripped me a new one for quoting these timelines previously and I'm not sure what evidence you have that contradicts George Bahto's book that clearly documents these timelines.

In any case, I think M&W had their hands and plates quite full at the time that they were being asked to determine the suitability of the property (remember that the records state that Merion was still looking a a number of properties at the time) for golf for Merion in June/July 1910.   For them to come out for a day at Rodman Griscom's invitation was quite nice of them, actually.

This timeline also shows that not only was Macdonald not viewed universally as a great architect by this time, but that many of his friends and best players had not even seen the course at NGLA prior to then.   They knew he had been studying, and working on it, but many had no idea of how great it was at that point.

Is there anything here that I haven't represented accurately?

Mike, my complaint was with you using the late official opening date the way you do in the last paragraph.   NGLA was viewed universally as great by this point and Macdonald largely credited for it.  You are just wrong about this.  Read anything from the period and this will be readily apparent.   Even travis was writing that NGLA would be far and away the best in America by this point.


Look Mike, there is nothing new here and why not just leave it be? You, Wayne, and TEPaul can write your essay and I will revise mine, and then if you guys see the need you can start in on me all over again.  Seems a silly way to do it but that is beyond my control.   I am not going back over this stuff again at least not in this forum.

Good Luck.

[Mike_Cirba]

Mike, my complaint was with you using the late official opening date the way you do in the last paragraph.   NGLA was viewed universally as great by this point and Macdonald largely credited for it.  You are just wrong about this.  Read anything from the period and this will be readily apparent.   Even travis was writing that NGLA would be far and away the best in America by this point.


Look Mike, there is nothing new here and why not just leave it be? You, Wayne, and TEPaul can write your essay and I will revise mine, and then if you guys see the need you can start in on me all over again.  Seems a silly way to do it but that is beyond my control.   I am not going back over this stuff again at least not in this forum.

Good Luck.

David,

Thanks, and I agree that we've reached an impasse until further information or evidence surfaces.

I would clarify though, that I have no part in writing the historical essay or deciding where it surfaces......that's Wayne and Tom's call.   As far as new evidence from the MCC minutes, I know exactly what you know from the little that's been referred to here and on that one private email we were both in receipt of.


As far as NGLA, I think one would have had to be a past-GCA'er to have known about its greatness in June of 1910.   Although a few articles talked about it coming and that it was going to be superb, it was a slow process and one would have needed to be a fervent afficianado to be aware of it.   In fact, a March 1910 article simply mentions that the course won't open until June of 1911.

Even the noted Travis article in American Golfer didn't take place until after the inaugural July 2, 1910 Invitational tournament, and his article appeared in the August 1910 issue.   At that tournament, there were a total of sixteen participants, none from Philadelphia. 

All of that being said however, I would agree with your point that the Merion committee were indeed the type of afficianados who would have been privy to what was happening out in Southampton with Macdonald and NGLA and it wouldn't surprise me at all to learn that Griscom, or Lesley, or Lloyd, or any of them had been out there prior to summer 1910.   In fact, I'd be surprised if they hadn't.

My point which I think still is valid, however, is that from the perspective of those men, having played with and against Macdonald in competitions and such for a decade or so at that point, would have thought of him as an amateur sportsman first, and as an architect second, which is not how we think about him today.

[Jeff_Brauer]

TEPaul and Shivas,

An actual property survey map would have a table of metes and bounds, a registered surveyors stamp, etc.  I don't think this is an official document of the land transfer, but rather an informative piece for Merion members.  It might be dead on as to the proposed land swap as of the drawing date, but there are no dimensions on it, which would be typical of a true property survey. 

An illustrative plan would be to scale, and would capture whatever was proposed at the time (to prove it, go look at the Master Plan on your clubhouse wall, any housing development sales plan, or even any rendering of a golf course.  They all vary from the final as built condition)

If it was an appendix or exhibit to the land transfer/sale to MCC, then I suppose the written would supercede in terms like "shall transfer exactly (or approximately) 120 acres, generally conforming to Exhibit A, but subject to change" or similar.

[Kirk Gill]

One thing that might be worth mentioning on this thread is this tidbit from the book "Rural Pennsylvania" written by the Rev. S. F. Hotchkin. I believe it dates from 1897.

"The Merion Cricket Club. --Business and professional men need exercise. Archbishop Whately and Glastone found it in felling trees; but most persons desire amusement and the excitement of competition." ... " J. Aubrey Jones liberally offered the use of ground on the estate of his father, Colonel Owen Jones, at Wynnewood. In May 1866, the Club conquered in 'its first match with the Haverford College team.' This stimulated the game, and membership increased. There was no club-house; and a wooden box, 6 feet by 2, contained the needful implements. The box was kept in the entry of the Wynnewood public school-house, and the school-house pump was the wash-room. In 1873 five acres were rented at Ardmore, having been purchased for such use by Rowland Evans and W.W. Montgomery. The next year the Club purchased the property. In 1880 two and a half adjacent acres were bought, and a larger club-house built. In 1881 'the junior and ladies' houses were built.' The Ardmore grounds served the Club until 1892, when it was deemed needful 'to procure grounds and club-houses on a scale equal to any in this country, and an organization to purchase a cricket ground and lease it to the Club for 999 years was formed, as the 'Haverford Land and Improvement Company.' In 1892 twelve and a half acres were bought at Haverford Station, which contain the present club-houses. On January 4, 1896, the main club-house was burned and a new one was erected in its place, which was, in turn, almost entirely destroyed by fire on September 24th, 1896. Phoenix-like, a new club-house has since arisen, replete in every particular."

One thing I find interesting in that paragraph is the fact that, when faced with the need for new grounds for cricket, the club set up a corporation to buy the land and then lease it to the club. I'm sure that there was a sound reason behind doing the transaction in this way, although I don't know enough about the local laws of the time to say what those reasons were. However, if this is what the club did for the purpose of obtaining additional grounds for cricket, might they then not follow a similar path in obtaining additional grounds for their golf course?

The questions, perhaps already asked and answered, that come to mind when thinking of how this might have affected the "swap" are - Was the Haverford Development Company formed to make money off of a real estate deal, with the new course as the drawing card (as is common now), or was the primary purpose to provide land for a new golf course to the club at a good price (as well as providing the option to members to purchase some real estate at a good price), with any additional real estate development profits a bonus to defray the club's costs?

And if the second scenario is closer to what actually happened, then any "swap" wouldn't be difficult to make happen, because the needs of the course would be paramount.

Interesting. Not sure what it means, but I thought I'd go ahead and post this and see what you all think.

[TEPaul]

"My point which I think still is valid, however, is that from the perspective of those men, having played with and against Macdonald in competitions and such for a decade or so at that point, would have thought of him as an amateur sportsman first, and as an architect second, which is not how we think about him today."

Mike Cirba:

That is possibly one of the most important and, in my opinion, accurate statments about that particular time and that particular issue I've seen on this website. I have been thinking that and considering it for a few years now and if we look at what those men of Merion actually said you can hardly miss exactly that!

For some reason, some on here seem to take that statement and that explanation of Macdonald (and Merion) as some kind of disrespecting of Macdonanld and God Only Knows why! It's nothing of the kind as it's as close to the reality of that situation and that time as it could be, in my opinion. It's not so much what kind of architect he was but more about what kind of man he was (an expert golf amateur/sportsman) and the way he was going about it (an amateur/sporstman architect with a committee of expert AMATEUR/SPORTSMEN golfers) which was definitely something of a first on the American golf and architecture scene! His model and promotion of it going-in was a new expectation for excellence in golf and architcture in America!

Since some of them from Merion knew him well anyway, is it some coincidence that the men from Merion (a couple of committees of all amateur/sportsmen) were probably the very first to approach him?

I don't think so! This isn't JUST about golf course architecture---it's about really understanding that time and some of the people from that time.

[DMoriarty]

Is there any verifiable factual support for stating that Merion was the first to approach Macdonald for help?   

Is there any verifiable factual support for stating that Lloyd did not move into Allgates until 1912?



Shivas, 

I think this was just a proposed plan for the development.  It was not only dated Nov. 15, it was sent to the membership that same day.

[TEPaul]

"Is there any verifiable factual support for stating that Merion was the first to approach Macdonald for help?"


Not that I know of, it's just my opinion that they probably were.   



"Is there any verifiable factual support for stating that Lloyd did not move into Allgates until 1912?"



Yes, there is, at least that Allgates, the house, was not completed until 1912. It's on the Internet. But maybe he and his family pitched a tent on the property for two years between purchasing the original acreage and the completion of the house but something sort of tell me he wasn't exactly that type.

Is there any verifiable factual support for stating that Charles Blair Macdonald routed and designed Merion East and Hugh Wilson and his committee only built the course to that routing and design? If there is, is there any possiblity of seeing it in our future?

[DMoriarty]

"Is there any verifiable factual support for stating that Lloyd did not move into Allgates until 1912?"



Yes, there is, at least that Allgates, the house, was not completed until 1912. It's on the Internet. But maybe he and his family pitched a tent on the property for two years between purchasing the original acreage and the completion of the house but something sort of tell me he wasn't exactly that type.

The internet is a pretty large place.  Larger than Allgates even.  Will you be a bit more specific?

Is there any verifiable factual support for stating that Charles Blair Macdonald routed and designed Merion East and Hugh Wilson and his committee only built the course to that routing and design? If there is, is there any possiblity of seeing it in our future?

I don't know.  Perhaps you should ask someone who stated this. 

[Mike_Cirba]

David,

Here's one source, at
http://www.worldiris.com/public_html/ROOTS_Articles/MHWLloyd2web

I think it's interesting how HG was referred to as a "financier".   

I think it's equally interesting that the property for Allgates was purchased in 1910, designed in 1911, and opened in 1912.   

I think we better look into this Wilson Eyre guy....besides the suspicious name, there is no way this hack Philadelphia architect could have designed Allgates without some help from Stanford White. 



Mary Helen Wingate Lloyd enjoyed her gardens at Allgates, her estate near Philadelphia, and well she might, for it was a lovely place indeed, with the Rose Garden bordered with apricot violas, the sunken Blue Garden with its narrow rill of water, the Frog Terrace with oversized bronze frog sculptures flanking an oblong pool, the Primrose Path leading toward the greenhouse, a sheep meadow in the middle distance through which one walked to the rustic Quarry Garden, fine stone steps and balustrades, and, immense in the landscape, the Iris Bowl, arguably the most famous private American iris garden of its time.
Unlike many gardens of the wealthy in the 'twenties in which the hands of professionals and underlings created venues for al fresco social activities and conspicuous consumption, the formal gardens at Allgates were clearly Mrs. Lloyd's, and, although she certainly employed assistance, her vision of horticultural beauty infused them, and her own hands, holding her own tools with the handles specially painted blue, cultivated her plants. Let us meet her.

In the Bulletin of the Garden Club of America for February, 1936, a special memorial edition devoted to Mrs. Lloyd, we learn that before her marriage to Horatio Gates Lloyd, a financier who would become President of the Commercial Trust Company of Philadelphia, and later a partner in J. P. Morgan and Co., she was Miss Wingate of Brooklyn, a "cosmopolitan" young woman, "active in many organizations allied with painting and horticulture." She "took an active part in the campaign for woman's suffrage and was also interested in the cause of birth control." As a mature woman she was loved for her vitality and charm and respected for her "intellectual curiosity," her "independent spirit," and her love of beautiful things. She collected rare antique horticultural books and studied art. Gardens, books, and painting were her abiding joys.

Mrs. Lloyd's horticultural affiliations were many. Her own garden club was among the founding clubs of the Garden Club of America, an organization created in 1913 to encourage horticultural education and preservation of the nation's natural beauty. This mission she explained eloquently in a 1925 article in Good Housekeeping in which she reminded the reader that "the great wild garden ... our fields and roadsides" must be cherished, for it is "Everybody's Garden." In recognition of her exceptional knowledge of the subject, she served for many years as editor of the Plant Material department of the GCA Bulletin and wrote insightful articles on a variety of genera, including the Iris. She served as a Director of GCA from 1928 to 1933, and rose to First Vice-President, the position she held at her death on September 23, 1934. She was also active in other plant societies, including the Pennsylvania Horticultural Society and the American Iris Society. An organizer and charter member of AIS, Mrs. Lloyd served as a Director from 1921 to 1930.

Allgates itself, located in Haverford, is an estate which in the Lloyd's time extended to approximately seventy-five acres, including a one room schoolhouse and the Frog Tavern, both survivors from the eighteenth century. The house was designed by Wilson Eyre, a noted Philadelphia architect, and was completed in 1912. It is an irregular gabled structure of stucco over stone ranging from one to three stories with sunny gardens descending in generous terraces from the rear. The gardens were redesigned in 1919-20 with the assistance of Horace Wells Sellers, architect, but the planting schemes then, and later, were conceived by Mrs. Lloyd. The several garden areas were exceptionally successfully orchestrated. Formal yet intimate, they were united by a common major axis, repetition of color, water features, and the use of modern figurative sculptures of children at play. Today, Allgates is on the National Register of Historic Places and the estate has recently returned to private ownership after having served as an educational institution for some years.

[TEPaul]

"I don't know.  Perhaps you should ask someone who stated this. "


I have, many times. We all have, but he says he's finished, and over a week ago, with answering questions or discusing the subject or else he only deflects the subject and our questions about it----the latest example being the remark quoted here. I'm fairly sure most everyone understands why, at this point.

[TEPaul]

"If I were a surveyor and I drew and dated a map, I'd do the map as of the date I surveyed the property for the map, not the date I actually drew the map.

If, for example, I survey on Jan 1, and then on Jan 6, a land deal occurs that changes what I surveyed on Jan 1, I for one would not want to date my map Jan 10 when I actually drew it because then it would be wrong as of that Jan 10 date!  I'd date it Jan 1 even though I actually drew it Jan 10 for precisely this reason. 

I don't do surveys, but my gut tells me that this is the norm..."


Shivas:

That probably just proves:

1. Why you aren't a surveyor
2. Why those men from Merion were a lot more clever than you are.



When the truth is finally known about what those guys from Merion were really doing between about November 1910 and the beginning of 1911 it will just blow you totally away. Of course, David Moriarty, and his assumptions and premises and conclusion will be left completely in the dust but, it couldn't happen to a nicer guy, and that's what's inevitable when one starts playing fast and loose, as he's done, with what people like those ones back then were really doing and why!


PS:

I was going to put a thread on here called "Who are the best business structuralists out there?" to ask if someone could explain why those guys like Lloyd and Cuylers did the things they did the way they did them but I lost the thread, and so we decided to just ask some of the best business minds at Merion today. When a few of them heard about this and that we wanted to interview them for this, they were pumped, to say the least. Merion G.C. is excited to get a more detailed report about who people like Lloyd and Cuylers really were and what they did for the club almost a century ago.

In this sense, David Moriarty has done a very good thing, and I think I should thank him for it and I think Merion will, in this way! As far as his architectural theories on Macdonald and Merion, I don't think so.

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