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Mike_Cirba

Tom,

Drawing a rectangle 140 acres starting at College Avenue and crossing over Ardmore Ave. down to where the course property ended in 1911 meant that it was only as wide as the rairoad tracks over to behind the 8th green/9th tee area.

Given those dimensions, the Dallas Estate would have had to be about 36 acres, not 21.

What that really means is that unless the Johnson Farm was already L-shaped, and not rectangular, Merion only could have used 67 acres of it, and not 90+ as David contends.
« Last Edit: May 05, 2008, 11:58:34 AM by MPC »

Bryan Izatt

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Here's another attempt at overlaying the current course over the 11-15-10 drawing.  I've highlighted in red GH Rd on the old drawing and highlighted in black the train line, Ardmore and the Haverford property to help match the overlay. 

The old drawing has a scale on it and is therefore likely accurately drawn.  The relative locations of Ardmore, the train line, the club house the southern boundary of the Haverford College property and the wiggly eastern edge of the golf property all align perfectly with the current Google overlay, so I'm going to say the old drawing was accurately to scale.

What's obvious is that the course as currently laid out fits in the property as drawn on the 11-15-10 map with perhaps a sliver of land added up near the 15th fairway and green.  Some land to the west of the clubhouse appears to have been given up to allow the current GH Rd to arc closer to the club house.

I'd draw the conclusion that when Pugh & Hubbord, Civil Engineers, drew the map on November 5, 1910 they were already encompassing the Francis land swap.




TEPaul

David:

Throughout all this I guess I never really thought to ask you something pretty obvious. Maybe we've all just been talking around it, and I'm not really sure what your essay specifically says regarding it.
David:

Throughout all this I guess I never really thought to ask you something pretty obvious. Maybe we've all just been talking around it, and I'm not really sure what your essay specifically says regarding it.

So, the question is, is it your feeling AND YOUR CONTENTION in your essay that Macdonald (and Whigam) actually left Merion with something physical such as a real drawn routing and design plan? Is it your feeling and contention that such a physical thing as a drawn routing and design plan was included with that "LETTER" that the site committee mentions they got from him and mentioned to the MCC board.

I'm sort of wondering if there wasn't something like that how in the world could people like Francis and Lloyd be out there "tweaking" whatever it was you say Macdonald left them with?

I mean, I could certainly see Macdonald/Whigam saying something in that letter like: "We feel you've got enough nice land here to build a good 18 hole course on and you may want to consider the kind of famous template type holes on it we're doing at NGLA. Come to NGLA at some point and we'll show you the drawings and sketches I got from abroad to use to design and build NGLA and I'll explain the principles of those templates and what to look for in that regard on your land."

Do you see them doing more than that? Again, do you think they left Merion with something physical like perhaps a stick routing as Barker did for Connell and perhaps some hole concept ideas they drew for Merion?

Otherwise, again, I just can't see what the likes of Francis and Lloyd would have to go on when you mentioned they were out there "tweaking" Macdonald's routing in 1910, including when you suggest Francis actually had that late night land-swap epiphany. If he didn't have something drawn or physical how could he have known what Macdonald may've been suggesting in that last five hole stretch or anywhere else on what would become the original Merion East?

Thanks.
« Last Edit: May 05, 2008, 12:59:51 PM by TEPaul »

TEPaul

We have just come to find on a 1908 real estate map that the Johnson Farm property did extend in a square block right on up along side the MacFadden and Haverford College land property to the east all the way to College Ave. It took in more than the golf course up there. It also took in some of the houses just to the west, including my friends the Halls who live in the property just above the 15th green.

Assuming Merion and or Lloyd's HDC bought the Johnson Farm in its entirety that everyone here seem to always have assumed, including David Moriarty in his piece, that pretty much completely shoots down the assumption (Moriarty's) that the triangle that includes the 15th green and 16th tee was something that was swapped in 1910 or later to create that triangle part of the golf course.

JESII

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Tom,

What do you think it means?

wsmorrison

In 1908, the Johnson Farm was controlled by the Philadelphia and Ardmore Land Company.  The Haverford Development Company was formed sometime before June 1909 (we have a deed dated June 1909 that shows the acquisition of land near the present golf course) and acquired the Johnson Farm on Dec 16, 1910 after being transferred via James P. Rothwell, Jr. and 3 days later to HG Lloyd.  On August 11, 1910 the sale of the 21 acre Dallas estate to the HDC was published in the Philadelphia Inquirer.

The land for the golf course that includes part of the 15th fairway and green as well as the land used for the first green was not indicated in the Nov. 15, 1910 map.  The land was not officially swapped since the HDC owned it all and then some and always did since the Johnson farm was acquired.  Rather it seems the usage of the land was altered (or swapped) in-house, apparently sometime after Nov. 15, 1910.   HG Lloyd being on both sides of the transaction (HDC and MCC) would have easily affected the transfer and therefore the ability to rapidly create the 16th green.
« Last Edit: May 05, 2008, 01:31:01 PM by Wayne Morrison »

TEPaul

'Tom,
What do you think it means?"


Sully:

Sorry about that. I posted the last post without finishing it because I was on the phone with someone and forgot to include that.

I think what it means is that assuming we all believe that MCC or Lloyd (and his HDC) bought the entire Johnson Farm (140 acres)----and it seems like everyone, including David Moriarty, has always assumed that (even without know where all of the original Johnson Farm was)----that the land in that triangle that creates #15 green and #16 tee was always part of this---eg it was not swapped for in that Francis late night epiphany event whether that took place in 1910 or later.

What seems clear now is why Francis went to see Lloyd (instead of someone else) as he did in the middle of the night---eg Lloyd controlled the residential development land to the west (HDC) and all Francis was asking him to do is carve off a bit of it ON A PLAN that he essentially controlled all of (the proposed course and the HDC development to the west (about 200 more acres)) to fit the green and tee in. I think this basically proves that the only problem Francis saw here was that the proposed road (the future Golf Club Road) that was only an "approximate" configuration on the 1910 plan at that time or how it was transposed onto their course topo maps later, was not producing quite enough ground to the west of the Haverford College property to fit that green and tee into. This is exactly what I've suspected for some days now.

What Francis did isn't any different from a person like a foreman going to his developer and asking him to reconfigure some property lines in the developement before anything is built and sold or transferred.

It would make no sense at all for someone like Lloyd to sell or transfer that portion of the Johnson estate (that area that creates that northwest triangle of the course) to someone else who had nothing to do with the Merion course move and then have to buy it back the same year.

So what this probably absolutely proves is that the author of this essay "The Missing Faces of Merion" is completely wrong in the assumption he made about that triangle and how and why it was created to make room for those holes (#15 tee and #16 green which are part of Francis' story) and with the premise he made in his essay with that assumption. That (his premise about the meaning of how that trianle in the Francis story was created and why) was one of the building blocks (premises) he used to create his conclusion that Macdonald routed and designed Merion East!
« Last Edit: May 05, 2008, 01:45:41 PM by TEPaul »

JESII

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Does it make sense then, that the entire area above the southern boundry of Haverford College is what was "found" to create this sorting out of the entire last 5 holes? Or do you think it was literally just a widening of the land already agreed to be used for the golf course up there?

If it was just a widening out of that top portion, I have to wonder why on earth such a narrow strip was ever considered usable for the golf course.

Thanks for the research guys.

TEPaul

"Does it make sense then, that the entire area above the southern boundry of Haverford College is what was "found" to create this sorting out of the entire last 5 holes? Or do you think it was literally just a widening of the land already agreed to be used for the golf course up there?"

No, Sully, not at all. What it means is there was always plenty of land up in there controlled by Lloyd (and through him by Merion's interests). This land is not above Haverford College's land, it's to the west of it all the way to College Avenue, and it's a pretty big block, maybe up to 12 or 13 acres.

Just disregard that green coloring that someone put on here in that area of the 1910 plan to the west of Haverford College's block, it is inapplicable now.

I don't think there's any question at all now that the approximate configuration of Golf Club Road before it was built and as it appeared on that plan or how that plan's dimensions were transposed off the 1910 plan on the topo maps that Wilson and committee later used to route and design and build the course was all there was that was creating that problem that Francis resolved.
« Last Edit: May 05, 2008, 02:48:47 PM by TEPaul »

JESII

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Tom,

I still have to wonder why such a narrow strip would even by labeled for the golf course from the outset if the would have to reconfigure, the as yet unbuilt, Golf Club Road just to use it at all...doesn't seem logical through the dilligent process to lock into that 190 yard long strip when it is too narrow to place even a green and a tee.
« Last Edit: May 05, 2008, 02:41:38 PM by JES II »

Mike_Cirba

Tom,

I'm viewing the same maps as you and think that it's also very important to mention that the "Johnson Farm", which made up most of the original (and today's) golf course, was indeed L-shaped piece of land we know and love today.   ;D

This is VERY different from what is suggested by looking at the original drawing from 1910, with the Haverford Development Company land just to the west of it, and the golf course seemingly intentionally routed all around the propsed housing.   Pretty as a picture so to speak.   However, that was never intentionally routed that way, it's just the configuration of the available land that Merion purchased.   

Looking at that, it would seem to lend credence to M&W going into a 350 acre parcel and saying, "yes...let's show these Philly twits how to route a golf course.   We go down, cross the road, make a right, loop all around, cross the road, cross the road, cross the road, then come back up to the quarry, around, and back down.   In fact, we just made a BIG "L"...sorta genius, don't ya think?   There ya go, fellers...go put together your little committee!"   ;)

No, instead, almost all of the original course (less the 21 acres of the Dallas Estate) just followed along the L-shape of the Johnson Farm.   It was NOT the result of a magical routing...it was just using the property that they bought, as is.

Oh...it also incorporated the triangle at the top...and much more up there, frankly.   

It's just that as Tom explained, when Lloyd bought it and they started to figure what part would be golf and what part homes, they either shaved a bit thin, or took too much off the top, which was realized and rectified by Francis.   

Of course, this was all after M&W were long gone.

I don't have the right to publish this map here, but imagine the property of the Johnson Farm starting at the top of the hill, just to the right of the Haverford College land (today's driving range) extending about 200 yards left of that, and then coming Straight down almost to Ardmore Avenue, and incorporating ALL of today's holes north of Ardmore Avenue, and most of the houses along Golf House Road.

Just before Ardmore, it swung right on a narrow stretch, and then had another rectangular piece north of the road that isn't part of the golf course.

However, it also swung south of Ardmore avenue, down to the creek on 11 & 12, incorporated all of today's 10, 9th, 8th, most of 2, 5, etc.

Only the remaining property purchase in fall 1911...the 21 acre Dallas Estate at the far west (see Davids White Paper for the holes this covers) completed the course.
« Last Edit: May 05, 2008, 03:17:10 PM by MPC »

DMoriarty

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I will address this recent ‘discovery’ first, and then later will try to address anything I might have missed.

TEPaul,   

You write “we just came to find the 1908 maps.”   I find this surprising because I asked Wayne a few weeks ago whether he had the old RR Atlas' (to help figure out the various parcels) and I believe he indicated that he did.   Regarding the Johnson Farm, you are referring to the 1900 Atlas, not the 1908 map. 

I sent the 1900 Atlas to Wayne last week, along with 2 from 1908 covering the property north of College, to help explain location (not on the course) referenced the Deed for the 70 acre purchase referenced in the 1909 Deed that Wayne graciously sent me.   As I said, I would have sent him the 1908 deed because I thought he had it.

I have not posted the maps and I did not include them in my essay because there may be rights issues involved in copying them (the real maps are public domain, but these have been colorized  and thus may be protected.   

I don’t mind sharing all of my research, but at least lets keep track of where the information is coming from.    If anyone would like to take a look here is the link.

http://www.lowermerionhistory.org/atlas.html Take a look at the 1913  Atlas for a good look at a very early stick routing of the course.   
______________________
Wayne and TEPaul,

You are both assuming that Haverford Development Company and Merion Cricket Club were were one and the same prior to Nov. 1910.   By that logic Merion, had secured around 350 acres by November of 1910, including the land west of the main part of the old Johnson farm as well.

But there is no evidence that MCC and HDC were one and the same before this date, or that Lloyd controlled HDC but was actually acting as an agent for MCC.   But even Lloyd was acting as an agent for MCC and had been involved from the beginning in HDC, it doesn't matter because, by Nov. 15 1911, the old Johnson Farm parcel was broken up for the golf course, as shown in the Nov. 1910 Atlas.   The land that Francis got in the "swap"  was designated as part of the golf course.  According to Francis, prior to the "swap" it was not.

Keep in mind that the development company had originally offered 100 acres for the golf course, and given that they even had a golf course plan, they were offering a specific 100 acres, even though their holdings were triple this.  Without the Dallas Estate (which was not controlled by HDC until after July 1, 1910, this would have meant that the committee recommended purchase of 99 acres.  Take out the RR land and we are at 96.  Jut the road in a bit  So they recommended purchase the land offered by HDC and the Dallas estate and the RR property.

(The property plan in 1910 does not include the RR land as part of the purchase, but I it is possible that there was some question as to who owned land when M&W inspected the property.    Basically looking at the old RR maps and only one deed, it is not clear how the RR right of way is being treated, whether it is property of the RR or an encumbrance on the bordering land.  So there may have been some confusion as to just what land HDC controlled.   Given that we don’t have the details of the actual presentation to the board, we don’t know for sure that the committee knew the status of the RR land when they recommended it for purchase. )

Here is an rough approximation of the 100 acres that they may have originally offered Merion, based on descriptions provided by all parties, including Francis.  Using google’s measurement tool, and leaving out the Dallas estate and the RR land, the parcel marked by the lines contains 100.37  Acres.   



________________

Mike, the Johnson farm property was not shaped like an L, it was  shaped like a J (for Johnson?)  And the long stem of the J is wider than the land designated for purchase, as is the neck of “swapped” land.   Not that the shape should matter, given that HDC also controlled all the land to the West of the property. 
Golf history can be quite interesting if you just let your favorite legends go and allow the truth to take you where it will.
--Tom MacWood (1958-2012)

DMoriarty

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In 1908, the Johnson Farm was controlled by the Philadelphia and Ardmore Land Company.  The Haverford Development Company was formed sometime before June 1909 (we have a deed dated June 1909 that shows the acquisition of land near the present golf course) and acquired the Johnson Farm on Dec 16, 1910 after being transferred via James P. Rothwell, Jr. and 3 days later to HG Lloyd.  On August 11, 1910 the sale of the 21 acre Dallas estate to the HDC was published in the Philadelphia Inquirer.

Regarding the 1909 Deed, are you relying on my interpretation from my emails, or did you get an expert to translate for you?   

Regarding the Dallas Estate, often times the paper reported a sale as soon as the deal was struck, but then reported it again when the deal finally closed.  With regard to the Dallas Estate the completion of the sale was not reported until Nov. 4, 1910

]As I mentioned offline, I think that J.P. Rothwell was an agent who acted as sort of a middle man on some of these transactions.   I now believe that James Freeman played a similar role regarding the Dallas estate, as I have since determined that there was a James Freeman who ran an auction house, an occupation which indicates he was comfortable with playing the role of the middle man.

Did you have the a surveyor look at 1909 deed, or did you rely on my interpretation from my emails? 

Regarding the Dec. 16th conveyance, do you now have the deed, or are you assuming that it was the Johnson farm property?   I'd like to take a look at it if you now have the actual deed.  I don't really doubt it was the Johnson farm property but would like to confirm, and I'd like to figure out a few other things as well.

Lastly, weren't other properties transferred to Lloyd as well, at approximately the same time?   And didn't these include the Dallas Estate?   

Could you please clarify what you think is significant about these conveyances?  After all, the Lloyd (and friends) had not just advanced the money on behalf of the golf course purchase, they also invested in HDC, providing them with what could have as much as around $150,000.   

Lloyd wrote that around one half the 1/2 of the stock in HDC was being held in reserve for Merion Members, and that if there was an over-subscription, the stock would be distributed fairly between all.   The total value was $300,000 One way to reserve the stock would simply be to buy it all, and then sell it without profit to the members.   Or he could have only bought part of it.  Either way, he had just invested in HDC and fronted Merion's money,  so it seems entirely reasonable that he would want a large portion of HDC's holdings in his name, as collateral for Merion's purchase and/or to hold the land until Merion's members contributed enough to pay for the course.   (

After all, it was his money.   But I just do not see the relevance to the deal struck between Merion, on the one hand and HDC, on the other.    That is the deal made on

Quote
The land for the golf course that includes part of the 15th fairway and green as well as the land used for the first green was not indicated in the Nov. 15, 1910 map.

I have no idea where you got this, because it just isn't the case.   Look at the map.   The 117 acres to be purchased from HDC clearly contains the property for the 15th green and 16th tee. 


Quote
The land was not officially swapped since the HDC owned it all and then some and always did since the Johnson farm was acquired.  Rather it seems the usage of the land was altered (or swapped) in-house, apparently sometime after Nov. 15, 1910.   HG Lloyd being on both sides of the transaction (HDC and MCC) would have easily affected the transfer and therefore the ability to rapidly create the 16th green.

Except that you lump the parties into one, this is essentially what I wrote in my essay, which is why I don't understand the significance you place on the transfer to Lloyd. 

You are ignoring that there was a deal between HDC and Merion on or before November 15, 1910.  At least that is what Merion's Board said, and I am inclined to believe them. 

And not that it necessarily matters, but I have seen NOTHING which indicates that Lloyd was involved in HDC before mid-November 1910.   So while Lloyd held title for about six or seven months beginning in December 1910,  there is no evidence he was on both sides of the transaction when Merion struck their deal with HDC.    As the board said, the Guarantors just put up the money to make that happen-- Money for Merion, and Money for HDC.

[Remember that HDC only had options on much of the property, so they needed more than they were getting as a down payment from Merion.]

Plus as I have explained, even if Lloyd was HDC (which he wasnt) the land was still divided and the agreement made prior to Nov. 15, 1910.
Golf history can be quite interesting if you just let your favorite legends go and allow the truth to take you where it will.
--Tom MacWood (1958-2012)

TEPaul

"Wayne and TEPaul,

You are both assuming that Haverford Development Company and Merion Cricket Club were were one and the same prior to Nov. 1910.   By that logic Merion, had secured around 350 acres by November of 1910, including the land west of the main part of the old Johnson farm as well.

But there is no evidence that MCC and HDC were one and the same before this date, or that Lloyd controlled HDC but was actually acting as an agent for MCC.   But even Lloyd was acting as an agent for MCC and had been involved from the beginning in HDC, it doesn't matter because, by Nov. 15 1911, the old Johnson Farm parcel was broken up for the golf course, as shown in the Nov. 1910 Atlas.   The land that Francis got in the "swap"  was designated as part of the golf course.  According to Francis, prior to the "swap" it was not."


David:

Thanks for responding on this. Wayne and I are not saying MCC and Lloyd and HDC were ONE and the SAME thing (I may've said that once weeks ago when I was having such a hard time reading that hand-written June 24, 1909 indenture). All we're saying is that Lloyd was acting in MCC's interest and obviously Lloyd was acting in his own real estate interest with the rest of the land to the west for himself and Merion members or friends interested in real estate and supporting the club. You are aware of "Allgates" and the size it became, aren't you?

Would you mind taking another look at your second paragraph? There have to be mistakes or typos in there and misdate by a year or so. It seems like you might need an "if" in one part. I don't want to respond to that paragraph until you think it really says exactly what you mean to say.

Thanks.


wsmorrison

David,

Without the maps you sent me (1900_14, 1908_11 and 1908_18-1) showing the areas you proposed the 1909 deed covered (I'm waiting for an analysis of the deed), it would have taken me some time to get back over to the LM Historical Society and arranged to have copies made of the maps I'd seen years before covering the course itself.  Their hours aren't very convenient but I've been there before to see the RR atlas collection.  There isn't anything else of interest regarding Merion.  Not surprising since it is in Delaware and not Montgomery County, which is where Lower Merion is located.  The Delaware County Historical Society has a wonderful collection as well. 

Anyway, I used the link in the URLs you provided to take a look at maps more central to the topic at hand, namely 1900_05 and 1908_10 showing the Johnson Farm and then the Johnson Farm as conveyed to the Philadelphia and Ardmore Land Company as well as the Dallas property.  The 1913_12 map shows the stick routings on both the completed East Course and the still in construction West Course, which would ultimately be revised slightly.

Here are the land transactions that I've come across so far.  I think I shared all of these with you:

2-11-1725   
Whereas Lydia Ellis became lawfully seized of a      certain tract of land containing 425 acres and conveyed 395 acres to Reed Price

6-20-1730
Reed Price conveyed a certain part of aforesaid land, 208 acres to Amos Lewis

4-28-1774
Amos and Hannah Lewis conveyed 208 acres to Claas Johnston, his heirs and assigns for 348 pounds, 10 shillings

4-12-1787
Aaron Johnston and Christianna Vaughn 208 acres resurvey 270 acres to Jacob Johnston as Claas Johnston died intestate leaving two sons and one daughter, Jacob, Christianna and Aaron

4-11-1791
Deed recorded by Aaron Johnston and Christianna Vaughn to Jacob Johnston

2-21-1907
Elizabeth L. Johnson, widow of Joseph H. Johnson and Della Mc D.K. Johnson et ux and Harry Johnson to Gebhard Fecht 140 acres for $1.00

2-21-1907
Gebhard Fecht to Philadelphia & Ardmore Land Company 140 Acres for $48,000

8-11-1910
The Philadelphia Inquirer reported the sale of a 21 acre tract on land located on Coopertown road sold by Hirst and McMullen for the estate of David Dallas to James Freeman for non-disclosed considerations.  The land adjoined the property of Marshall Guest and the 140 acre tract of the Haverford Development Company.  At some later date, the Dallas estate land was conveyed to the Merion Cricket Club Golf Association.

In reality, the Dallas estate was not located on Coopertown Rd but rather on what is now Darby Road though it did abut the Guest estate.

12-16-1910
Philadelphia & Ardmore Land Company to James P. Rothwell, Jr. 140 Acres for $1.00

12-19-1910
James P. Rothwell, Jr. to H.G. Lloyd 161 Acres for $1.00

7-19-1911
H.G. Lloyd to James P. Rothwell, Jr.  161 Acres for $1.00

7-19-1911
James P. Rothwell, Jr.  conveyed 120.01 Acres to the Merion Cricket Club Golf Association for $1.00 subject to a mortgage of $85,000

10-22-1912
Charles Carver, Jr. sold .352 acres to Alfred B. Eaton who then conveyed the property to the Merion Cricket Club Golf Association 78’x197’ along the south border of the Wheeler property in exchange for a 47’x323’ strip of ground west of the 2nd green

6-24-1914
Alexander Shand, Jr. conveyed 2915.04 sq. ft. to the Merion Cricket Club Golf Association for $1.00 and other money

3-29-1922
Berman Prentice et ux and Richard Whitney et ux sold to the Merion Cricket Club Golf Association 7.28 acres from the center of Cobbs Creek to Golf View Road permitting the new 10th, 11th and 12th holes for $3,640

12-15-1926
A small part of lot #7, Block A conveyed by William H. Wilson et ux to Merion Cricket Club Golf Association for $1.00 and other considerations

12-21-1926
A very small piece on York Road in Merion Golf Heights was conveyed by Louis J. Kalb et ux to Merion Cricket Club Golf Association for $1.00 and other valuable considerations

9-25-1928
Merion Cricket Club swapped a .403 acre triangle of ground along the 16th hole from Haverford College in exchange for an irregular piece of ground northwest of the 16th tee and $1 and other valuable considerations

5-17-1949
A small irregular strip of land partially in the bed of Cobbs Creek south of the 11th green was conveyed from Thomas B. Semans to Merion Golf Club for $1.00 subject to certain conditions and restrictions

9-20-1961
Merion Golf Club purchased 2.862 acres (where original 12th green and 13th hole were located) at a cost of $11,000 from Philadelphia & Western Railroad from whom it was leased between 5-5-1911 until 9-20-1961 ($1.00 annual payment and all real estate taxes)


Notice that the land where the original 12th and 13th holes were located was not controlled by MCC until they rented the land from the P&W in May 1911.
« Last Edit: May 05, 2008, 07:27:20 PM by Wayne Morrison »

Mike_Cirba

David,

Thanks for sharing that aerial with your markings, as well as pointing us to the Lower Merion maps.   

If nothing else, I do think we come from the same place, even if we go in different directions.

I would mention just a few things;

I think it is misleading to suggest as your White Paper does that Merion somehow picked out 96 acres out of 300+ available that was under ownership of the HDC.   While that is technically true, it's also true that really only 140 of those acres, the property known as the "Johnson Farm" was really even evaluated by the club or made available by the HDC.  The rest of the 300, and much of the Johnson Farm as well, had already been targeted for real estate profits.  Stated as you have makes it appear that someone...who you suggest was Macdonald and Whigham, very carefully selected the best 96 acres of 350 as suitable for golf.   This is untrue.

It was very important to the club that the course be convenient to get to, so 2 factors made the Johnson Farm tract imperative;  1) It was next to the railway and railroad station and 2) It had a large farmhouse in existence that could be quickly converted into a ready-made clubhouse.

I'd also point out that you have your green line on the western end drawn out too far, as you encompass the 21 acres of the Dallas Estate with your parameters, and I don't believe that was your intent.   In fact, for easy understanding, you may just want to draw out the boundary lines of that property in red, or a different color.

I would also state that the property selected is indeed L-shaped, at least as viewed from the clubhouse looking out to the course, even if abbreviated.

My point in bringing that up is that the land that was purchased for the course, the "Johnson Farm", already ran in the direction that we know today.   The addition of the Dallas Estate at the far end, making it into an almost equidistant "L" was a very logical move, and likely precipitated by the realization that Barker's 100 acres was not nearly enough for a Championship course after the advent of the Haskell ball.

Whether Macdonald recommended the purchase of the Dallas Estate is something that is certainly possible.   It fit nicely from a land flow perspective, and instantly gave them an additional 20%, which would have gotten closer to where they needed to be.

However, what is still difficult for me to understand is how ANY routing was supposed to work without the northern 5 acres that is today's 15th approach and green, and 16th tee down to the bottom of the hill.   One thing we both agree on is that the property is VERY compact, without much in the way of available land anywhere to expand, and especially when you consider that the northern end as purchased originally would have run from Ardmore Ave. to the bottom of the hill that one drives to on #15, and again on 16#, this would have hardly been the makings of what was needed.   

I would also question whether the original Johnson Property went as far to the south as to encompass the present 11th green as you have it drawn, but I'd have to look at that closer.

Irrespective, from the beginning of the new Merion project the clear intent was to build a championship course in Philadelphia, but if we take the leap that Macdonald put together a routing for the club, he would have been woefully short.

As the course opened it was just over 6200 yards.   If you subtract the area of the Francis swap, you'd lose about 130 yards from the 15th and another 180 from the 16th.   This would put the course at under 5900 yards, and the land that was swapped...over where Golf House Road cuts in from the left near the 14th tee...well...you and I both know that that wouldn't have added anything in terms of length to any routing, because the course simply wasn't/isn't wide enough at that spot to place a west to east hole. 

That is why it "wasn't part of any golf plan", and the reason Francis so easily and readily discarded it.

I also cannot imagine how limited the Barker routing on 100 acres must have been. 

Is it any wonder that Merion designed and built the course "without any golf architect", as Alan Wilson stated very accurately in later years?   ::) 
« Last Edit: May 05, 2008, 09:44:35 PM by MPC »

Patrick_Mucci

MPC,

Surely, you're aware that many clubs were mismeasured circa 1911.

A mismeasurement destroys your premise.

In fact, even today, with sophisticated measuring devices at a club's disposal, the score card yardage is often wrong.

And, sometimes, it's got nothing to do with errors in measuring.

TEPaul

Guys:

As far as this so-called "Johnson Farm" which makes up the vast majority of the "L" that is today Merion East G.C., I think the real deal now, at least as far as David's "triangle" premise is concerned, or our contention, basically boils down to a couple of facts right now.

1. Did particularly the top part of of that Johnson Farm's dimensions that reached up to College Avenue on the north and just to the west of the Mcfadden place on the east and the Haverford College land immediately south of Mcfadden's place that had the same north/south line, stay together from the transfer from the Johnsons to a man named Geghard Fecht for a dollar (which probably meant he was family or a title clerk), to its transfer to the Philadelphia and Ardmore Land Co. (apparently the land company controlled by the real estate developers who dealt with the MCC site committee, Lloyd and the MCC interests) to the transfer to either MCC or something to do with Lloyd, their financial facilatator, in late 1910 or in 1911?

2. If it did (that north section of the Johnson Farm that looked to be about 12 to 13 acres, part of which became the triangle that contains the 15th green and 16th tee) stay together and fell under the purchase or option control or HDC stock control by Lloyd et al at any point earlier than about the middle of June, 1910, then I think that would preclude David Moriarty's assumption and the import of it about this Francis land-swap event and how it supports Macdonald/Whigam routing and designing the course.


The reason I mention this is there's no reason to speculate about it at this point because it is exceedingly complex. David Moriarty and Wayne are trying to exchange and explain their source material back and forth. I'm getting it all but it is really hard to figure out for a whole lot of reasons.

If that particular tract of about 12-13 acres of the original Johnson Farm up there was under the control of purview of either Horatio Gates Lloyd or a company he controlled (perhaps HDC) at or before about June of 1910 (Macdonald's first visit) then I think David's triangle scenario is a dead issue. David may not yet quite understand the connection of MCC and Lloyd with what he was doing here for Merion and himself but I think we do and I think we can explain it to him.

Anyway there are a bunch of real estate maps or deed transaction contracts etc that all have to be analyzed together so don't speculate at this point. I think in a little while all three of us can figure out if and how that tract transfered from the Johnson's in '07 to MCC in '10 or '11 and who controlled it along the way. With that resolved this "triangle" issue should be too.

Hang in there---this stuff looked at all together is complex but my take is that's what you get with a guys as rich and poweful as Horatio Gates Lloyd was then!  ;)
« Last Edit: May 05, 2008, 10:30:28 PM by TEPaul »

Mike_Cirba

David,

I just looked at the aerial you marked up and have to mention that the Johnson property stopped at the creek on the eastern end.   You have it running all the way to the tracks and that land wasn't their's to offer.   Also, as mentioned, the land on the far western end you have encircled within your green line is the 21 acres of the Dallas Estate.   I'd also re-check your southern boundary down around today's 11th green/12th tee.

Thanks

Mike_Cirba

David,

I think I spoke too soon. 

I saw your outer green line and assumed that you were trying to portray the actual dimensions of the original "Johnson Farm", which is truly what is at issue here.

Trying to speculate on some previous 100 acre routing by Barker is really an irrelevant exercise at this point.

Instead, I suggest you overlay the dimensions of the original Johnson Farm lot, which is most of the original, L-shaped golf course, as well as a separate coloring defining the additional "Dallas Estate", which was tacked onto the westernmost end.

Those drawings should be pretty revealing in showing the evolution of the property, and what was actually offered to MCC.

Thanks.

DMoriarty

  • Karma: +0/-0
I cannot even begin to keep up with you guys, but here are some responses which may or may not be garbled.

TEPaul wrote:
Quote
Thanks for responding on this. Wayne and I are not saying MCC and Lloyd and HDC were ONE and the SAME thing (I may've said that once weeks ago when I was having such a hard time reading that hand-written June 24, 1909 indenture). All we're saying is that Lloyd was acting in MCC's interest and obviously Lloyd was acting in his own real estate interest with the rest of the land to the west for himself and Merion members or friends interested in real estate and supporting the club.

No doubt that Lloyd had an interest in the real estate project after this deal was put together, but let’s not forget that even after he and Merion Members became involved around one half of HDC was still controlled by non-Merion members.  And before the deal, Lloyd and the Merion Members may not have had any interest at all.   Indeed Lloyd said as much when he wrote that members had invested in HDC  “in order to consummate the purchase” of the land for Merion.  He invested in HDC so that the sale could be completed.   

HDC must have needed investors to raise money and exercise their options on the other properties secured by option.  The same day the Inquirer announced that the sale of the land from HDC to MCC had settled (1/7/11) the paper also announced that the HDC had settled on their purchase of the George Taylor property, the 56 acres immediately west of the golf course.

As for the  “1909 Indenture” I do not think that Lloyd is even mentioned.   Do you think he was?  If so where? 

Quote
Would you mind taking another look at your second paragraph? There have to be mistakes or typos in there and misdate by a year or so. It seems like you might need an "if" in one part. I don't want to respond to that paragraph until you think it really says exactly what you mean to say.

Nope. No mistake.

On November 4, 1910 the Inquirer reported that brokers had sold and effected settlement of the Dallas Estate to James Freeman.
___________________________________

Wayne

Thanks for filling in some of the information on the property listing.  Somewhere I have a clipping that mentions the exchange involving the Wheeler property, but for some reason it was not on the page of clippings I sent you.    If I locate it, I’ll send it.

Wayne wrote:
Quote
Notice that the land where the original 12th and 13th holes were located was not controlled by MCC until they rented the land from the P&W in May 1911.

So noted.

This seems a reasonable date to me.  They did not start construction until around then, and no use formalizing what must have been essentially a gentleman’s agreement before they began to use the property.   I wonder what efforts, if any, they made to purchase the land before they decided to rent it. 

You are not suggesting that they were waiting to sign this lease until after M&W came back down to check on the lay out before construction, are you?   I didn’t think so. 

_______________________________


Mike Cirba wrote:
Quote
I think it is misleading to suggest as your White Paper does that Merion somehow picked out 96 acres out of 300+ available that was under ownership of the HDC.   While that is technically true, it's also true that really only 140 of those acres, the property known as the "Johnson Farm" was really even evaluated by the club or made available by the HDC.

It is only misleading if you misinterpret it.   

The point was that, instead of staying within the vast holdings of HDC for their extra acreage, they instead went outside those holdings to the Dallas Estate and the RR land.   This strongly suggests that they were not interested in just any 120 acres, but wanted specific land for specific purposes.
. . .
The green line on the aerial means nothing to me.    I drew the yellow line.  I don’t think I said the green line meant something.   
. . .
The property selected was L shaped, but the Johnson farm was shaped like a J.  They did not buy the entire Johnson farm; it was split up.  The point is that this was already done before Nov. 15, 1910.

Quote
However, what is still difficult for me to understand is how ANY routing was supposed to work without the northern 5 acres that is today's 15th approach and green, and 16th tee down to the bottom of the hill.

Francis and Lloyd didn’t think it would work either, so they changed the shape of property.  I’ll speculate about it in an answer to a few TEPaul questions that I did not post earlier.

Quote
I would also question whether the original Johnson Property went as far to the south as to encompass the present 11th green as you have it drawn, but I'd have to look at that closer.

That green line is not the old Johnson property.  It was just on the google screen I copied.  I think it is supposed to be the course boundary. 

____________________
TEPaul wrote:
Quote
So, the question is, is it your feeling AND YOUR CONTENTION in your essay that Macdonald (and Whigam) actually left Merion with something physical such as a real drawn routing and design plan? Is it your feeling and contention that such a physical thing as a drawn routing and design plan was included with that "LETTER" that the site committee mentions they got from him and mentioned to the MCC board.

In the essay I tried to avoid “contentions” or “conclusions” where I did not feel I had adequate support.    I don’t know what M&W left the property with, and I don’t know the details of their “views as to what could be done with the land” that the Committee recommended for purchase.  So I have tried not to speculate.   I was saving the rampant speculation for part II (this is a joke Mike, so please try to restrain yourself and not throw it back in my face.)

That being said a case could be made that they did something similar to what they did at NGLA, where they inspected the property, found the holes they were looking for, and recommended purchase of the land containing these holes.

Assuming without knowing that the letter did not contain drawings or sketches (it could have, but we don’t know the details because the committee chose not to publish the letter or describe its contents,) they easily could have written this out by referencing landmarks, the barker routing, or even references to stakes or marker that they had placed (as they did at NGLA.)  Again, I am NOT claiming any of these as fact, but none of them conflict with them facts as we know them.     

It would not be hard to describe their “views on what could be done with the property,” especially given his reliance of hole types or principles, and the existence of the previous map and routing by Barker.

Purely as a hypothetical, here is an example.  Seventh Hole: Based on a mirror image of a Redan type hole, with the tee located to the right of [landmark or previous description] and the green located on the plateau left of the old barn;  place deep bunker to guard the front right of the green.

Quote
I'm sort of wondering if there wasn't something like that how in the world could people like Francis and Lloyd be out there "tweaking" whatever it was you say Macdonald left them with?

Because for whatever reason Francis and Lloyd couldn’t figure out how the holes would fit either.   Maybe they (Barker and/or Macdonald) hadn’t considered a entry road, or maybe when inspecting the property it just seemed the holes fit better than they did.   All of the Barker routing had to be terribly cramped, and it could be that M&W liked what Barker planned for this part of the property or that Merion did, until they figured out that it just too tight.  Or maybe M&W thought that holes were longer than they were, or maybe they planned holes too close together for Merion’s comfort.  Surely sometimes designers walk a property and come up with a vision of the property, but when they actually stake out the holes, it doesn’t quite work how they thought it would. 

Again purely hypothetical, and probably unreasonable, but wasn't the  first tee originally around the corner of the clubhouse?   If so, maybe Barker or/and M&W thought that the 14th tee should be closer to the clubhouse, not fully realizing the extent to which this would interfere with the 18th green and possibly even the first hole.  This would have given them more length in theory but wouldn't work too well in practice, and this might have become apparent to Francis when he tried to convert Barker's and/or M&W's views into a more detailed routing plan.

Another possibility is things fit okay, but Merion wanted the 14-16 to be longer holes, or that they did not want the holes to be so immediately adjacent to each other, and stretching this portion out gave them a little wiggle room to avoid excessive overlapping tees and greens.   I have not researched the issue, but it seems that around this time a preference for separate playing corridors (as at Pine Valley) was starting to emerge and Merion wanted a bit more of this that had thus far been suggested by anyone.   

Again, not offering these as proof or as my theory, but merely to put out some possibilities that explain what might have happened.   All of the possibilities share a common denominator and that is that this land exchange was crucial to creating what exists to day on that part of the course.   While the quarry was still well within the property even without this exchange, Hole 16 could not have utilized the quarry in quite same the way it does had the extra land not been available. 
Golf history can be quite interesting if you just let your favorite legends go and allow the truth to take you where it will.
--Tom MacWood (1958-2012)

TEPaul

Ah, David, I admire your line drawing ability on aerials and old plans and your expertise with the Googlearth yardstick and such but if you think your green line drawn around Merion on post #30 that seemingly encompasses the property Merion G.C. owns today you may want to reconsider your green line across #2 green. I didn't know the club didn't own the back 2/3 of that green! ;)

Don't worry about it, about 6-7 years ago Merion G.C. bought the "Wheeler" place, the app six acres place immediately behind #2 green and along the right of #6. I told them they ought to turn it into guest quarters with hookers for overnight members and guests but they flat dissed my idea. I even told them that C.B. Macdonald would've approved and they considered it seemingly quite seriously but then they turned me and my idea down again.

And this was even before Tom MacWood and you got involved with your Macdonald promotions.  :-X

DMoriarty

  • Karma: +0/-0
David,

I think I spoke too soon. 

I saw your outer green line and assumed that you were trying to portray the actual dimensions of the original "Johnson Farm", which is truly what is at issue here.

Trying to speculate on some previous 100 acre routing by Barker is really an irrelevant exercise at this point.

Instead, I suggest you overlay the dimensions of the original Johnson Farm lot, which is most of the original, L-shaped golf course, as well as a separate coloring defining the additional "Dallas Estate", which was tacked onto the westernmost end.

Those drawings should be pretty revealing in showing the evolution of the property, and what was actually offered to MCC.

Thanks.

Not sure what that would tell us, but knock yourself out.  Let me know if you find anything interesting.

TEPaul.   

That is not my green line.  It is some sort of overlay on google and it is around most courses. I guess there is probably a way to get rid of it, but I dont mind it because it helps me find courses from high altitude.
Golf history can be quite interesting if you just let your favorite legends go and allow the truth to take you where it will.
--Tom MacWood (1958-2012)

Mike_Cirba

David,

You and I both know that the 140 acre Johnson Farm property was what was originally owned by Connell and Co. when Lloyd and Merion first considered the property for golf purposes and when they were tipped off about the clubs plans "16 months ago", prior to the November announcement, meaning July, 1909.

THAT is the property that Merion considered for golf...a property that was L-shaped, crossed on both sides of Ardmore Avenue, was next to the railroad station, included a large farmhouse (clubhouse) near the tracks, and it was also the property that a very opportunistic Horatio Gates Lloyd gobbled up and then quickly formed the Haverford Development Company and bought another 200 acres of adjoining land that he held out for real estate development around the course, knowing that if he sold the golf land to Merion for a song he would recoup that and more with golf-course-facing housing properties.

Please give me credit for recognizing that you are way more intelligent than you're portraying yourself here.  ;) 

However, if you concede that point, then the later aquisition of the adjoining "Dallas Estate" is seen simply for what it is...a simple realization, whether triggered by Macdonald or not...that 100 acres, especially configured in that odd, narrow, L-shape, would not a Championship course make, so they bought the next adjoining 20 acres...and even then needed to add 5 acres to the northern end to make a very tight, compacted, intimate 6200 yard course work.

Of course, recognizing the obvious here also negates the importance of the site visit of M&W, and really makes very, very clear that they most certainly did NOT traverse through 350 acres to find the exact perfect 120 acres for golf.

C'mon David... you should recognize by this juncture that whatever they did for the club in "advising as to what could be done with the land", it certainly wasn't routing a golf course. 
« Last Edit: May 05, 2008, 11:06:43 PM by MPC »

TEPaul

"No doubt that Lloyd had an interest in the real estate project after this deal was put together, but let’s not forget that even after he and Merion Members became involved around one half of HDC was still controlled by non-Merion members.  And before the deal, Lloyd and the Merion Members may not have had any interest at all."


David:

Before WHAT deal? Do you realize Lloyd bought what was to become the 75 acre "Allgates" in 1910 that was probably part of that Philadelphia and Admore Co or HDC land? I think one thing you need to do some more research on is Lloyd and what he was doing to the west of the course as well as for MCC. Do you see that "Hawthorne" property of 22 1/2 acres which is within the letters "o,w,n" of the word "Cooperstown" on the left of that 1908 Franklin Map? That was the beginning of "Allgates" and I'm rather sure that is exactly where Francis bicycled the one mile to at midnight to talk to him about this 15th green and 16th tee land-swap deal. For some reason you don't seem to think Lloyd was involved in this surrounding land before something like the end of 1910. I think you better seriously rethink that if you ever want to really understand this entire subject. You seem to want to continue to make Lloyd's connection with MCC's entire move to Ardmore and his interest in that land around there unconnected and irrelevant to one another. I can pretty much guarantee you it wasn't!
« Last Edit: May 05, 2008, 11:07:19 PM by TEPaul »

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