What is wrong with unpinnable locations on greens?

[John Kavanaugh]

I just can't grasp why you people constantly whine about unpinnable locations.  How many hole postions do you need?

[Tom Huckaby]

More than one, and at least one that allows for use of the contour that is present.

Next?

[John Kavanaugh]

I believe false fronts are universally accepted.  Why not false whole bunch of stuff. 

[JESII]

I agree John, I would say you do need places to ove the hole around...my biggest pet peeve with the argument about green speeds / contour / pinnable spots is the notion that a player should be able to reasonably putt the ball to within close range of the hole any time they are on the green...I wholeheartedly disagree with that premise.

[Tom Huckaby]

JES:  I would agree with you, and disagree with that premise as well.

But when a green's speed is such that the result is either entire unpinnable sections (the ball not staying anywhere near the hole due to gravity) that could never be traversed (also due to gravity), that to me is not good.

A perfect example was 11 at Pasatiempo.  If they kept the green speed moderate, it was a fascinating green.  But they didn't, and the result was there was only one pinnable spot - the relatively boring flat part at the bottom.  No ball would ever stay up top, so it really was a false 4/5 of a green.   All shots on to the green would just end up on the flat bottom, no matter what.  There were no curved putts.   I can't see that as a positive.

Now a huge green with all sorts of stuff in the middle and having to go over or around, that is cool, even if there were very few pinnable areas.

That's not what I am talking about, however.  I am talking about a situation like the old 11 at Pasatiempo, which to me is wholly different.

TH

[JohnV]

No problem with areas where the hole can not / should not be located as long as there are enough areas available to ensure that the green doesn't get worn down in just one or two areas that can be used.

With the exception of greens that have pretty constant slope to them (flat to some higher angle), most greens have areas where you wouldn't want to put the hole.  Unfortunately there are greens where there are very few (if any) areas were you would want to put the hole.

Many people decry the pace of play today and I think a large part of the problem is green speeds and hole locations that make everyone take more time and more putts.

JES,
I agree that there is no problem with making it impossible to get the ball to stop around the hole from certain directions.  But, if you are putting from dead below the hole, the ball had better not roll back to you if you get it within 3 or 4 feet of the hole.

Tom,
From what I understand there is now a pretty good location at the top of the green.  I'll be investigating it further on the 9th when I go to do hole locations for the US Open qualifier.

[Tom Huckaby]

Tom,
From what I understand there is now a pretty good location at the top of the green.  I'll be investigating it further on the 9th when I go to do hole locations for the US Open qualifier.

YES YES YES!

There's a killer back right that must be utilized.... and one which never could have been at speeds over 7 as it was before.

TH
ps - also re  "I agree that there is no problem with making it impossible to get the ball to stop around the hole from certain directions.  But, if you are putting from dead below the hole, the ball had better not roll back to you if you get it within 3 or 4 feet of the hole."  Those are my sentiments exactly.  That's goofy-golf, absurd, and I can't see the worth of it. 

[Rich Goodale]

JES:  I would agree with you, and disagree with that premise as well.

Hey this is the Huck we know and love! 

[John Kavanaugh]

If Augusta National was a "public" course dependant on squirrelly sources of revenue would the 9th and 16th greens need to be "fixed" to allow for more pin positions?

[John Moore II]

Unpinable locations are fine, but the green in general should be fair. Putts that travel 18 inches past the hole should be able to stop where they are. Putts that barely move past the hole should not roll down a hill and off the green. But large slopes on large greens are prefectly acceptable as long as there is enough pinable space to keep wear down on the green.

-Kav--Yes, those greens would possibly need to be changed in order to keep the greens from being destroyed by the volume of play.

[Tom Huckaby]

JES:  I would agree with you, and disagree with that premise as well.

Hey this is the Huck we know and love! 

Rich - read it in context and it makes sense.  Take it out of such, and well... that's quite unfair.

JES stated that he disagreed with a certain premise.  I agree with him in his disagreement with that premise.  Is that better?


JK:  no.  From what I can see watching the Masters, each of 9 and 16 have several different possible positions.  I'd guess there are others used for regular play that we don't see.  This has nothing to do with public/private but everything to do with absurdity.  I don't see absurdity at Augusta.  I did at Pasatiempo.

TH

[JohnV]

John,

I think that the greens at Augusta have plenty of locations that can be used.  Just that many of them will not be used for the Masters as some wouldn't be challanging enough for those guys.

My personal opinion on doing hole locations is that I look for holes that require some thought in the shot into the green, but if is executed properly, the putt should be relatively easy.  That doesn't necessarily mean keeping the ball below the hole.  I'm starting to sense an article for my blog in this.

[John Kavanaugh]

John,

You also have a responsibility to ensure the completion of a round in a given amount of time for full field events.  I often see that as fun blocker.  I think there are plenty of great pin locations at ANGC where if you hit a putt 3 feet short the ball is coming back at you.  But then again I embrace absurdity.

[Tom Huckaby]

John,

 But then again I embrace absurdity.

If ever an out of context quote summed up a poster here, this simply MUST be it.

TH

[John Kavanaugh]

John,

 But then again I embrace absurdity.

If ever an out of context quote summed up a poster here, this simply MUST be it.

TH

Few things make me as happy as seeing a ball putted in a bunker unless it is Tiger himself putting the ball in a ditch.  It pisses me off that so many want to rob me and my friends of such fun.

[Tom Huckaby]

John,

 But then again I embrace absurdity.

If ever an out of context quote summed up a poster here, this simply MUST be it.

TH

Few things make me as happy as seeing a ball putted in a bunker unless it is Tiger himself putting the ball in a ditch.  It pisses me off that so many want to rob me and my friends of such fun.

I believe that, and understand it completely.

We all have our own takes on "fun" in this game.  I am all for whimsy and quirk and luck and all of that - in fact I embrace it also.  But when the only way to finish a hole in stroke play is to hole a 30 foot uphill putt, well... that to me is not fun.

And that is what I am talking about.  None of the things you just mentioned really bother me at all, and in fact I too find them fun in a sado-masochistic way.

TH

[John Moore II]

Kav--do you really think hole locations such at 18 (or was it 17?) on Friday at Olympic in '98 are fair? I must say I do not.

[John Kavanaugh]

Kav--do you really think hole locations such at 18 (or was it 17?) on Friday at Olympic in '98 are fair? I must say I do not.

Not at all unfair and I believe even the members of Olympic now agree the fix is worse.  I agree that once in a million or so rounds a combination of events lead to an unfair hole position.  When that is the case you simply hit a moving ball, take your two strokes and move on.

[JohnV]

Once a year, Hannastown had "tough day".  On days like that sinking a 20 foot putt might be the only way to complete the hole.  It was fun once a year, but I'd hate to do it every day.

As you said John, I have to get players around the golf course.  I also would have to deal with their wrath if I setup a hole location like that.

Ken,  Was it fair?  Well, everyone had to putt to the same hole so I guess I could say it was fair.  Was it good?  No.

One of the stranger ones I saw was a time that the hole cutter at a qualifier decided he knew a better hole location that the person who had set the hole and moved it about 5 feet.  For the first 5 groups, the hole was fine as there was dew on the green.  For the remaining 15 groups it was a nightmare.  Later that day when we got back out there for a playoff, the grass had grown enough that it wasn't a problem again.  That might be one of the few times I'd call a hole location unfair.  I was just glad I wasn't the one who set the hole or the one who was responsible for making sure it got cut in the correct place.

[Tom Huckaby]

But JK, you still have to hole out.  Your "take the penalty and move on" approach at Pasa 11 how it got at times would lead to some interesting hockey/ping pong, and multiple two stroke penalties.  If you find that to be golf and/or embace the absurdity of that, then so be it.  Not many would share your position - a comfortable place for you, for sure - but the result was indeed that all one ever saw was the boring pin position at which you made your wonderful birdie.

Wouldn't you have liked to play to a back pin?

It's not whiners like me who took that chance away from you... it's those who decided to speed that green up so much more than Mackenzie ever intended.

TH

[John Kavanaugh]

Huck,

When it comes to green contours and speed, which is the bigger problem.  Too much speed for the contour or too many players without the talent to hit the shot?  I use ANGC as proof that almost any contour and speed combination is acceptable with enough talent at your disposal.

[JESII]

Huck,

When it comes to green contours and speed, which is the bigger problem.  Too much speed for the contour or too many players without the talent to hit the shot?  I use ANGC as proof that almost any contour and speed combination is acceptable with enough talent at your disposal.

JK,

Would you agree that every road has a reasonable speed limit, and also the speed professional racers could go?

[Tom Huckaby]

Huck,

When it comes to green contours and speed, which is the bigger problem.  Too much speed for the contour or too many players without the talent to hit the shot?  I use ANGC as proof that almost any contour and speed combination is acceptable with enough talent at your disposal.

You miss the point, again.

Have you ever seen an uphill putt at Augusta roll back to the player's feet simply due to gravity?  I haven't.  And it's not their skill - which is obviously superior - it's that there just obviously isn't as much grade as existed at the old #11 at Pasatiempo.  

When greens get such that an uphill putt won't stay within 3 or 4 feet but rather rolls back to one's feet when missed, that to me shows little reward for skill, and is not what golf ought to be.

TH

[John Moore II]

When greens get such that an uphill putt won't stay within 3 or 4 feet but rather rolls back to one's feet when missed, that to me shows little reward for skill, and is not what golf ought to be.

TH

Tom--I agree with that statement, locations like that show nothing about a persons skill. Same with locations like I mentioned at Olympic. Barely missed putts should not be able to roll some 40 feet away from the hole down hill. Now very badly missed putts, thats a different arguement. But I think that from anywhere around a hole, be it an uphill or downhill putt, a perfectly struck putt should be able to stay within 3 feet of the hole (assuming you're not on a wrong tier that is 3 or 4 feet higher than where the pin is or something odd like that)

[Tom Huckaby]

JKM:  to make a horrible pun, when talking about a downhill putt, it's a slippery slope.

 

By this I mean, I have little problem with what occurred at Olympic Club on that fateful Payne Stewart putt, and while I haven't seen the re-done green, from what I hear I wouldn't call it an improvement.  I played the old green as it was and you just knew you couldn't get above the hole, or Payne's fate would be yours.  Thus you stayed below the hole if you could... uphill putts that missed would stay there and be tapped in.  That to me is skill.

Of course too much of this - and an over-reaction causing unused pin positions - is also a bad thing to me.

But a downhill putt that goes and goes and goes off the front of a green, well... I have nothing much against that in principle.  It's one's own fault for getting there in the first place.  Several of us had this occur at Pajaro Valley last Friday - yours truly included - and while my score and ego suffered for it, I still loved each green on which it occurred - because on each, the uphill putts caused no such absurdity.

TH