Desert Forest--Still the Gold Standard for desert golf

[Adam Clayman]

DF has a charm that Outlaw only seems to have when inspecting the houses. The disconnection of holes at Desert Mtn, gives no feeling of a course. Just 18 separate exact shot testers with perfectly manicured visuals.
Gold standard for some, but not all. 

[John Foley]

[John Foley,  One reason it's great is because hitting the big drive is not the only option or the only reason the local competition gets waxed.
[/quote]

Adam & everyone else who has played DF,

Still no answer if the narrow nature of the FW's at DF results in the non scratch player having a less than fun time playing among the Saguaro's.

If not, how can DF be great architecture for a non scratch player??

[Mike Hendren]

While I disagree with the generalization that photographs aren't insightful, it is true with respect to Desert Forest.  The fairway contouring coupled with firm and fast conditioning makes driving a precise task - something very few courses can claim today.  Ditto on and around the greens.  This course put me on defense immediately and I never recovered, fearing that every shot, if not precisely played was going to wind up in trouble. 

This is definitely less-is-more / lay-of-the land architecture in the finest tradition of Donald J. Ross.  The fact that Lawrence pulled it off while pioneering in a relatively hostile environment is even more remarkable. 

This course is significant on its own merits, but moreso given its role in the evolution of golf course architecture.   

[Brad Klein]

You can debate the playability/variety of DFGC all you want, and there's no end to that. But as far as its place in the history of American course architecture and its pioneer role in Arizona golf, that's covered in great detail in the club history we did -- "Desert Forest: The First 40 Years." The book, with color photography by Tony Roberts and maps by Forrest Richardson, is available through the club pro shop directly.

[Adam Clayman]

John, As with almost every desert course, width can really only be achieved through angle. Water is the scarce commodity. The movement of the twist and turns at DF is certainly not ample for a guy who insists on mis-hitting driver when it only results in trouble. I had such a day there, so I went with lower clubs and still fully enjoyed the golf courses architecture. Recovery is possible from the Sonoran bunker.  

The Golf course is unique and should be appreciated for it's subtlety and challenges to playing well.

[Matt_Ward]

Adam:

Last I checked Outlaw didn't have the intrusive nature of houses on that particular layout and secondly your assertion that the holes there are "18 separate exact shot testers" is also in error. The routing by Jack and his team are very well done and provide for a nice intersection of both the aerial and ground games coupled with greens that require a deft touch through and through. The course is also quite walkable and the spacing between greens and tees is also done well to avoid the spacing situations that can often happen on desert area courses.

To each his own ...

 

[Andy Troeger]

How is that great architecture? It may be to the scratch range golfer, but the 10-20 HDCP golfer who would be playing amongst the Saguaro's all day - how enjoyable is this?

John,
I guess that's kind of my point, look at the picture Steve posted once you get closer to the green. That's not a bad depiction of some of the holes on the course. To each their own, but I wouldn't think this course is fun to the higher handicapper who doesn't hit a lot of fairways. If you like a balance of length, accuracy, and short game interest DF definitely has the last two down. It will test your game...I just don't think that's a great trait necessarily.

Jim S,
I played it in early 2007; they may have done some work with it since then. They may have even been working on it at the time. Allowing recovery options from the desert would likely significantly affect my view of the course. Black Mesa here in NM isn't much wider (if any) than DF, but it allows recovery sometimes when in the desert and that makes all the difference between a strategic and penal design in my book.

[David Stamm]

My only complaint from what I can tell is that it seems all the holes have a front left and front right bunker guarding every green. Am I wrong? It looks a little repeatitive in this regard.

[Adam Clayman]

David, There's no mistaking when this course was built. The height of penal design, and RTJ's influence. But even so, there is no feeling of repetition. (save for the exacting cut of the bunker edges)Notice how some of the greens in the pics above do have a varied scheme. #11 being the most significant, but there are others.

Matt, My post mentioned nothing about the housing being intrusive. I was struck by the designs and materials used in and on those house. That was my point. BTW, there's a hole at Outlaw where Jack had a perfect diagonal cross carry, only to have the hole go the other direction. Most egregious use of a natural feature I have ever seen.

[Matt_Ward]

Adam:

Let me point out you mentioned a "disconnection" of holes at Desert Mtn. I don't agree with that statement -- especially as it applies to holes at the Outlaw layout.

You also stated, "DF has a charm that Outlaw only seems to have when inspecting the houses."

Don't know what you mean by that statement -- my only comment was that no houses are on Outlaw at all from the last time I played the course. The ownership made it a point to provide a unique and very rewarding connection to the native elements when playing there. That's a big time plus in my book -- you may see it differently.

You also stated about "the designs and materials used in and on those house(sic)." Again, what houses front Outlaw? There was none there when I played it and the ownership expressed a vision that would keep such elements from being anywhere near the finished product.

On your last point -- you vaguely mention about a diagonal cross carry and the hole going in another direction. What specific hole are you talking about? Then you go off and make a whopper of a statement that it's the "(M)ost egregious use of a natural feature I have ever seen." Really? Well, when you can let me know the exact hole you are speaking about I'd be more than happy to discuss it.

Outlaw is a clear and distinct design apart from what you see with the other DM layouts. Jack and his team did a superb job in providing a course that is close to its roots with the desert, with no housing intruding into the mix and with a walkable feature that has greens and tees so near to one another. The course doesn't add lengthy carries or extreme narrowness into the picture. In sum, Outlaw is a layout that carries forward a playable and fun dimension that goes far beyond the penal elements that so many other desert layouts embody and have been criticized for by so many who see desert golf as rather limited. Outlaw, as its name suggest, proves otherwise. Likely, you must be confusing the other DM layouts with what Outlaw clearly provides. I hope my further explanation has cleared up your own misunderstanding.

[Adam Clayman]

Sorry Matt my recollection of the course was mistaken. I meant the Renegade course and The hole in question was late in the round, a Par four that goes left and drops significantly from the mesa like LZ, that has the diagonal cross carry going the wrong way. On the line towards the hole there's a hillside of vegetation diagonally bisecting from short left to long right. The safe LZ is above that hillside to the right. Big hitters can carry this diagonal to a blind LZ, left.

I went to their website and curiously enough there's no information to access on any of the individual holes. I did read some of their text and was humored by their comparison to a scottish links course(Outlaw). Recommending you bring you ground game, is that really the case?

[Matt_Ward]

Adam:

FYI -- I don't shill for any course, architect or anything else for that matter. My statement of a ground game option at Outlaw was quite legitimate when I played the course a few years back. I'm not suggesting balls will run out as if you're playing across the pond on the bonafide links layouts but it did happen when I was there.

Frankly, I really loved it because the Nicklaus Team made a concerted effort to differentiate Outlaw from the other layouts at DM -- a few of which are striking in their appearance but can be brutally unforgiving for the player not on his / her game.

Outlaw is free from any housing clutter -- it features a walkable routing which is encouraged and the space between tees and greens is also very well done.

Nicklaus provided sufficient width -- you don't find the bowling alley fairways you see at DF -- and the greens at Outlaw are well positioned to repel any halfass approach shot. In a number of cases if you go too wide or too long the recovery play is far from automatic. Case in point being the 1st hole which appears so benign -- until -- you hit too aggressive an approach and encounter one tough hombre of a hole from that point.

The only real weakness of Outlaw was the par-4 10th. A short  par-4 that featured a very demanding angled green that was too narrow. I understand a correction has since happened and I'd be interested in anyone who may know more about it.

My original reason for mentioning Outlaw was this silly idea that DF is somehow the only legitimate grand desert experience in the Valley of the Sun. That's not the case -- other layouts have emerged and to their considerable credit have taken the many unique design aspects Red Lawrence created there and have gone a few steps beyond.

I've always been surprised Outlaw has not fared well in any AZ state ratings. Pure difficulty is not the mantra there and as I said previously, Team Nicklaus made it a point to provide a design that has a superb array of holes and a fascinating elasticity to keep the interest of a great range of different playing levels.

p.s. For what it's worth -- I still rate Chirichua and Geronimo above Renegade. As a further FYI -- the original Geronimo was one of my personal favorite courses but when they changed the uphill par-4 13th and the dynamic short par-4 14th they lost me. Still has plenty of ummmph though !
Hope the info I provided helps.

[Tony Petersen]

Matt, My post mentioned nothing about the housing being intrusive. I was struck by the designs and materials used in and on those house. That was my point. BTW, there's a hole at Outlaw where Jack had a perfect diagonal cross carry, only to have the hole go the other direction. Most egregious use of a natural feature I have ever seen.

Just to clarify, Outlaw has NO houses on the entire property, other than the clubhouse. The course itself has NO disconnection as the land is only 140 acres and bordered on the W. by Cave Creek Rd. All other sides are surrounded by Tonto National Forest (Desert Mountain actually did a land swap with the BLM to get the land). Holes run parallel, with a grand slope from West to East on the entire property. Everythings breaks from Apache Peak to the E. Valley, and you have to keep that in mind the entire round... Somewhat akin to Hiwan Golf Club in Evergreen, for instance

Beyond that, Outlaw is a brilliant design with fantastic greens and a great walk as well. They don't overseed in the winter, and the fairways tend to run in the 8-9 stimp range, while the greens tend to run right around 10.  So, you really do need to bring both you imagination & your ground game. Summers, Outlaw has the best turf in the Valley, and the course plays 2-3 strokes easier. The bunkering can be somewhat severe (especially in some of the fairway "pot" bunkers) & there are a couple of holes that you either love or hate (#2, #10, #13, #14). I just happen to love all of them

I agree that desert golf is contrived and manufactured for the most part, but I also agree with Ward in his analysis of Outlaw, Vista Verde, WR Old, etc. Desert Forest is a great course & a brilliant routing, but there are worthy competitors less than 5 miles to the East, 5 miles to the South & 10 miles to the S. East

Adam, give me a shout next time you get to AZ. I would love to host you for a game at Outlaw. My treat

[Robert Mercer Deruntz]

There are quite a few wonderful desert courses.  However, this is where this style, that others have used, originated.  And as far as the fairways are concerned, this is ground zero in the age of massive earth moving for minimalism.  The bunker styling may seem generic, but mostly because that is a style very widely used after the course was built.  And it also serves as a target defining hazard amongst not much other visual definition.  The simplicity of the bunkers works very well on this great layout.  As for the too penal tag; one of my friends who is in the picture is a higher handicap among many who treasure their experiences on the course.  The golfers who appear in the pictures represent a wonderful cross-section of players--a soon to be very, very good lady amateur, a current PGA tour member, and a fairly high handicapper, and myself all having a great time on this treasure.

[Tony Petersen]

The only real weakness of Outlaw was the par-4 10th. A short  par-4 that featured a very demanding angled green that was too narrow. I understand a correction has since happened and I'd be interested in anyone who may know more about it.

Matt, all they did was make the deep left green-side bunker somewhat shallower (word?). Now, you only have to hit an incredible bunker shot over a 8 foot face, rather the 10 before. It's still a hard hole, but the best play is a hybrid, then a bump-&-run to the front right of the green. You get the slope that carries you back to the left and the ball runs out to the center of the green. Or, bomb driver down the right side of the hazard and hope that the kick to the left brings your ball to the green, and not the front left-side bunker, or the smattering of bunkering short right. Or long... 

[Jesse Jones]

Tony P.
Last time we played Outlaw you drove the 10th green..
I know you love the 10th.. O.K!!!

As for Desert Forest.
One;  DF is a unique club in the Valley. It's low key and not pretentious. Two; From what I understand, it's reasonable to join.
Three; It has a great set of members. They are a little up there in age, but their enthusiasm for the game and love of the course is special.

Staying on that subject, you can feel the sense of pride members have for DF. It's a sensation you will not feel at many of the other top clubs in the valley. That, in my opinion, makes the whole DF experience unique.

[Matt_Ward]

Tony P:

Do the members embrace Outlaw or is truly the "outlaw" of golf options when held against the other courses at DM?

I really like what Lyle Anderson did with the property and as I said previously I salute Team Nicklaus in providing for a design that is completely different than the others at DM.

Thanks for the info on the 10th -- the frontal bunker was really not the main complaint issue -- it was really the shallow and hard nature of the green itself. I just felt the hole is a bit contrived when I see other golfers routinely flying tee balls to the adjacent 11th fairway and playing approaches from that angle.

All in all, Outlaw is great fun to play and for all the purists on this site it's one course that many should seek out when in town.

[Dave Givnish]

John

I'm a member, so I may a bit of a bias.  Our average men's handicap is about 10-12.  We have a number of members who are 20+.  Believe me, I've played against most of them in our BB events. 

I guess that I don't have Andy's problem with the width of the fairways.  They are not wide, but you don't have to be spot-on straight to hit them.  A nice soft fade works well for most holes.  We've got tees rated for men from 5400 to about 7050.  I don't hit driver on a number of holes.  Strategy is still part of the game, isn't it? 

Our older players simply move up a tee.  They love the course, and we have several who play regularly into their mid- and late 80's.  Lawrence didn't put too many forced carries into the equation, unlike you'd see at some other desert courses.  Everything you have to deal with is in front of you -- you just have to execute.

The course sets up better, I think, for match play than for medal.  The cut for match play in the Womens Mid Am last year was 20-over because everyone played defensively.  There were plenty of birdies in match play.

Dave

[Matt_Ward]

I just have to wonder if too many people -- especially on this site -- see desert golf as a limiting golf experience. I think there are now enough quality examples for those who really want to expand their base of knowledge but I have this feeling that many people still apply a life long tag to the golf one finds in the region.

[Michael Wharton-Palmer]

I had the pleasure of playing at Desert Forset last month.
It was tremendous and the sanswer to the question that is this thread....a huge YES....
Every hole shows distinct character, the green complexes are superb, the cousre layout very wlakable and the routing simple but brilliant.
A stern test for all levels of play, great sight lines off the tee boxes, with a couple of excellent risk rewrad dog legs.
The design is really very very good.
The original greens are still in use and are beautiful to putt on.
After playing several of the good resort courses it was nice to play a golf course that was designed as a challenge rather than a visual overload.

Brad's book is equally as good, great historical perspective of the area as well as the golf course.
A true delight to have played there...highly recommend a visit

[Jason Topp]

I just have to wonder if too many people -- especially on this site -- see desert golf as a limiting golf experience. I think there are now enough quality examples for those who really want to expand their base of knowledge but I have this feeling that many people still apply a life long tag to the golf one finds in the region.

You could be right Matt.  Incidentally, Vista Verde was terrific.

[tlavin]

I just have to wonder if too many people -- especially on this site -- see desert golf as a limiting golf experience. I think there are now enough quality examples for those who really want to expand their base of knowledge but I have this feeling that many people still apply a life long tag to the golf one finds in the region.

I believe that it's a matter of desert golf being an acquired taste for many of us who don't have that much experience playing in the Southwest.  I've only played a handful of courses in Arizona and I must say that I have enjoyed the weather and the scenery more than the golfing experience.  Having said that, there are a number of desert courses that seem very appealing to my eye, and Desert Forest is chief among them.  I like the simplicity and the apparent subtlety that I see (from reading the book and looking at this and other threads).  I am also very fond of the fact that there are precious few structures that one sees on the periphery of the golf course.  It looks like a treat to me.

[Matt_Ward]

Jaon:

Glad to hear things went well with your visit at Vista Verde.

Be very much interested in knowing more about the exact specifics of your round there.

Candidly, I see Vista Verde as a solid case study that demonstrates what I said previously that places like Desert Forest are not the only solitary examples of superior course architecture which is situated in the desert environment.

[Jerry Kluger]

Desert golf is fun but it does have its drawbacks.  I have played quite a bit in the Scottsdale area and I look forward to going back, but the desert is still a heck of a hazard.  When the wind is blowing, or you are not driving the ball well, the penalty for misfiring is severe.  Snakes and other critters as well as cactus can deter you for searching for your ball, and if you do find it, it is often unplayable.  Taking a penalty for an unplayable lie may still not offer much in the way of recovery.  We saw some situations at the match play championship that would have led to some really big numbers if it was a stroke play event. I don't know the answer other than really wide fairways, are there any other solutions other than hitting a whole bunch of provisionals, although they can only be used if the ball is lost.   

[John Foley]

Dave - thanks for the details - gives me a good perspective.

I'll agree w/ Jerry - I played WekoPa Saguaro last year and the fairways we're very wide. However not wide enough for a sprayer like me to not spend some time looking amongst the Saguaro's for the ball.