Part of Pine Valley's architectural genius ?

[Patrick_Mucci]

Are wide fairways and extra large greens part of Pine Valley's architectural genius ?

Do they accomodate the lesser golfer while testing the accomplished golfer ?

Do the extra large greens accomodate the necessary margins of error for the lesser golfer, while the specific hole location tests the accomplished golfer ?

Do the wide fairways provide the same scenario ?

[JESII]

Pat,

I caddied about 500 rounds there in the mid-late 90's and did not leave thinking the course accomodates lesser players very well. Plenty play, and thoroughly enjoy themselves, and the course, but rarely would a 15 or higher legitimately beat their handicap...several pars on the #1 course in the world would typically be a nice goal and result...just don't worry about counting them all up on the bad holes...

[John Moore II]

While I have never played Pine Valley or seen the course, I will yield to Pat's statement that the course has wide fairways and large greens. If that is the case, then it certainly increases the playability of the course. It will allow the high handicap to hit the ball off line a bit, but challenge the better player to find the best side of the fairway, and I would assume the side with the best angle is also the side with the most trouble off the tee. 
-Yes wide fairways provide a great challenge to the better golfer by making him think about position.
-I would say these things enhance the greatness of Pine Valley, and possibly other great courses.

[Peter Pallotta]

Pat -

Once again I'm gonna take JES' word on something, in this case because it also jibes very well with what I saw in the Nelson-Littler match.

Yes, the fairways are wide and the greens big, but those two great old champs needed (and used) every inch of both - and still got hammered.

Which is to say, Pine Valley must be one of a kind, i.e. the wide fairways and large greens help good players stand a chance, and help the average player stay barely alive

Peter

[Phil McDade]

I've always had the impression that PV's carries -- from tee to fairway, as well as from fairway to green -- are what make the course so penal for the mid-to-high handicapper. I was struck watching the Littler-Nelson match how wide the fairways were, as well as the large greens. But those carries are what looked intimidating.

[Tommy Williamsen]

Pat, I think what does in the higher handicap player is intimidation and fear of what happens if you miss the fairway or green.  There are double bodies all over the place for the single digit player.  Just think what can happen on a little hole like 8.  I played with a buddy hit missed the right green on the right and made a nice 7.  10 is just a short iron but hang on and you in deep sh--.
Then come to 13 and are 15 handicapper could make any number. 
I took my son there when he was 16 and through five was one over.  He foolishly tried to cut the corner on 6 and left the green four over. 

[Mike Bowline]

I also have not been fortunate yet to play PV (maybe Kings Putter VIII?)

However, large greens lend to putts of extremely long length for a missed approach that are difficult to 2-putt. If the same shot into the green was to a smaller green, typical rough and mounds around the green keep the ball from finishing so far away from the hole. A 40-foot chip is easier than a 100-foot putt, IMO.

[SPDB]

I think Tommy's analysis is spot on. I would be curious how many rounds a year at PV are played by the first timer. I believe intimidation, fear and mystique are often the greatest obstacles to a good round.

The course is exacting but forgiving if you play smartly. There are so many holes where proper club selection and strategy are absolutely critical and where the margin between bringing severe error in to play and reasonable likelihood of success is razor thin.  There are numerous examples like the one Tommy gave - 6 is a perfect example. There is absolutely no need to cut the corner there, when a 3 wood to over or slightly left of the little pine tree on the corner will leave you a comfortable approach, but it is so tempting to try and make a go. 

I've often felt that the course thrives at the margins, i.e. the instances where you are required to hit a long iron/fairway wood or a delicate wedge in to greens are where the course really bares its teeth, which is a rare combination - the wedge into 8 is equally as anxiety provoking as the long iron into 13. 

[Steve Kline]

While I have never played Pine Valley or seen the course, I will yield to Pat's statement that the course has wide fairways and large greens. If that is the case, then it certainly increases the playability of the course. It will allow the high handicap to hit the ball off line a bit, but challenge the better player to find the best side of the fairway, and I would assume the side with the best angle is also the side with the most trouble off the tee. 
-Yes wide fairways provide a great challenge to the better golfer by making him think about position.
-I would say these things enhance the greatness of Pine Valley, and possibly other great courses.

I think the problem for the higher handicapper is that if they miss the fairway they are screwed - usually pitching out. While the fairways are wide (I've only played a couple of rounds their but I'm guessing 50-60 yards) there is pretty much nothing after the fairways. Most 15 handicappers I've seen have a wide shot dispersion than that.  So, at PV they still run into holes where they make big, big numbers. Now, if you added the typical 10-15 yards of rough on either side of the fairway that most courses have at PV then it gets easier for the higher handicapper.

[Rich Goodale]

Steve

What's wrong with a high handicapper having to "pitch out" from a bad shot?  So, they lose a stroke--big deal!--they are expected to lose at least a stroke a hole, particularly at a place like Pine Valley, and they'll get a par or two or three just by the law of averages.  I see no reason why a wayward player could not break 90 at PV, or Pebble Beach, or Merion, or Dornoch, if they kept their wits about them.  Of course, maybe that's the problem, not the design (viz. Hamlet's speech to Horatio).....

Rich

[Mark_Fine]

I used to tell people that if our golf league played at Pine Valley every week, they would never finish their rounds.  It would be really cool for a while but it would drive most of them to give up the game (at least the golf league).  As much as I love the golf course, it is way too tough for the average golfer.  

[Rich Goodale]

Mark

You have probably played too much in America and not enough competitively in GBI, where all levels of players regularly complete their rounds, even on courses as hard as Pine Valley, and even if it means a single-figure player posting a score in triple figures.

Rich

[Dan Herrmann]

I've always had the impression that PV's carries -- from tee to fairway, as well as from fairway to green -- are what make the course so penal for the mid-to-high handicapper. I was struck watching the Littler-Nelson match how wide the fairways were, as well as the large greens. But those carries are what looked intimidating.

Phil,
Don't discount the green complexes.  To me, they're the genius of the course.

[BCrosby]

The buried lede in the discussion above is "rough." 

PV doesn't have very much. You tend to be either in the fw or in the trees (or worse).

Would PV be a better course if the existing tree line was cut back and replaced with more rough?  Or would even wider fw's be better?

Bob

[JESII]

Bob,

What borders most of the fairways, even under the trees, are bunkers and waste area type unkempt sand. there are a few places where this is not the case...to the right of #7 fairway for one...but in general, missing these fairways will be death, trees or no trees.

There seems to be some tree clearing going on, and if it went to the outer extent of the fairway bunkers it would have a tremendous effect on the visuals out there, but not much on the strategic merits of each hole.

[Mark_Fine]

Rich,
Depends on what you mean by "competitively".  Does a pound nassau count   I've lost count but I've played lots of golf in GBI, literally hundreds and hundreds of rounds.  The difference is that over there you can generally finish all the holes no matter what your handicap, and do so in a little over three hours as a fourball.  At Pine Valley, a foursome of high handicappers might take six and there would be a lot of XX's on the scorecards not to mention dozens of lost golf balls 

[JESII]

Mark,

Other than the couple of water hazards, not too many balls are lost there...people frequently wish they had lost the ball, but only in hindsight...

[Jim Nugent]

I used to tell people that if our golf league played at Pine Valley every week, they would never finish their rounds.  It would be really cool for a while but it would drive most of them to give up the game (at least the golf league).  As much as I love the golf course, it is way too tough for the average golfer.  

Whoever gave the slope ratings (the USGA?) agrees with your last sentence there.  PV's slope is 153 from the regular tees, and 155 from the tips.  With course ratings of 72.7 (regular) and 75.2 (championship) the raters say this course is a bear for average players.  

If the raters are right, PV is about as hard for average golfers as Oakmont is.  From the tips, bogey golfer shoots around 104 at PV, and 105 at Oakmont.  

From PV's regular tees, the raters say bogey still shoots over 101.  Just three strokes less than from the tips.  From Oakmont's regular (blue) tees, bogey shoots around 99.  Around six strokes less than from the tips.  Yet the tips are over 800 yards longer.  

Would think the tips are a lot harder than that.  Makes me wonder how accurate the slope and course ratings are.  

Pat has said he thinks PV's slope is higher than it should be.  

  

[JESII]

Pat has also said he plays down there with guys as old as him (ie: dirt) that hit the ball 300 yards and beat there 18 handicap with regularity...

I understand his overall point about the size of the playing areas, but the greens are so severe that actually having a 20 footer that is an easy two putt is an accomplishment...to any hole location on the second green, I would bet that less than 5% of the total greenspace represents an easily manageable two putt...

Although, as Tom Huckaby will argue...this might play into the lesser players hands, right Huck?

[Dan Boerger]

JES -- I've been fortunate to play PV a number of times. I've observed (in fact have done so myself!) that too many people try to punch out from trouble (and then stay in trouble) rather than declare their ball unplayable. Your insights appreciated!

[Tom Huckaby]

Pat has also said he plays down there with guys as old as him (ie: dirt) that hit the ball 300 yards and beat there 18 handicap with regularity...

I understand his overall point about the size of the playing areas, but the greens are so severe that actually having a 20 footer that is an easy two putt is an accomplishment...to any hole location on the second green, I would bet that less than 5% of the total greenspace represents an easily manageable two putt...

Although, as Tom Huckaby will argue...this might play into the lesser players hands, right Huck?

Yes, yes it would.   But we need not get into THAT argument again lest George Pazin and others burst a blood vessel.  

[JESII]

JES -- I've been fortunate to play PV a number of times. I've observed (in fact have done so myself!) that too many people try to punch out from trouble (and then stay in trouble) rather than declare their ball unplayable. Your insights appreciated!

Agreed...but with most of the trouble being along the sides of the holes, and so few opportunities to use the drop option of going straight away from the hole (deeper into the woods usually) I don't think there are many other choices...back to the tee is no fun in a casual round...I think the best remedy for the vast majority of players down there is to not worry about finishing out each hole if you get into any trouble...

[Steve Kline]

Steve

What's wrong with a high handicapper having to "pitch out" from a bad shot?  So, they lose a stroke--big deal!--they are expected to lose at least a stroke a hole, particularly at a place like Pine Valley, and they'll get a par or two or three just by the law of averages.  I see no reason why a wayward player could not break 90 at PV, or Pebble Beach, or Merion, or Dornoch, if they kept their wits about them.  Of course, maybe that's the problem, not the design (viz. Hamlet's speech to Horatio).....

Rich

There's nothing wrong with it in my book. I'm just saying that on other courses that have fairways that wide a missed fairway reults in the average being able to advance the ball farther. At PV they may not even advance it.

[Dan Boerger]

JES -- Thanks for your response. And that's a very good way to approach a round at PV.

Steve -- Pitching back into play is not easy at PV.

[Mark_Fine]

JES,
Your last point summarizes the problem at Pine Valley.  It is often best to not worry about finishing the hole when you get in trouble (most would not know where to properly play from anyway) but VERY FEW golfers ever do that (espeically guys playing in a stroke play golf league that require them to post a score on each hole).  

You are right about lost balls (only because all play is with caddies).  Imagine how many lost balls there would be without caddies    Think of the course from a public golfers perspective.

Note:  Pat is playing with guys who say they are 18 handicappers but really are not (or else their home course is Oakmont).  I would take all bets that if I took a legitimate 18 handicapper to Pine Valley he would not even get close to shooting his handicap and likely have at least two XX's on his card if playing by the rules of golf.

I was just thinking, I should take Forrest down there to play and see what he shoots.  He says he is a 14 or something like that (he is more like an 18 or 20  ) and I'll bet him dinner (and any bottle of wine he wants from their wine cellar (one of the best you will ever find) that he won't break 100 

Mark