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Jay Flemma

What does everyone know about Hale Irwin's designs?
« on: April 29, 2008, 08:49:21 PM »
Has anyone played one?  What are his design theories?

John Moore II

Re: What does everyone know about Hale Irwin's designs?
« Reply #1 on: April 29, 2008, 08:56:32 PM »
I have seen the TPC course at Wakefield, where the Nationwide Rex Open is played in Raleigh where Hale was a consultant. Everything seems to be right in front of you. Much like most other TPC courses and other manufactured designs. But other than that, I can not comment.

Dan Chapman

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Re: What does everyone know about Hale Irwin's designs?
« Reply #2 on: April 29, 2008, 08:59:38 PM »
I've only played his Meadowlands course in North Carolina and found it to be your standard "nice" golf course in a housing community.

Steve_ Shaffer

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Re: What does everyone know about Hale Irwin's designs?
« Reply #3 on: April 29, 2008, 09:02:03 PM »
From www.haleirwin.com:

"Hale and his son Steve are actively involved in the golf course design business. Hale founded Hale Irwin Golf Design in 1986 and has numerous award winning designs to his credit; services include design, consulting, redesign and renovation.

His favorite golf courses in the United States are Cypress Point and Winged Foot, and while overseas, he gives the nod to Royal Melbourne in Australia. These influences are clearly visible in his design preferences as Hale’s courses are classic in nature, maximizing the terrain to influence strategy."

During my recent visit to AZ, I visited but did not play Prescott Lakes. The terrain was very hilly and it is a housing development course.  There were some good scenic views notwithstanding the power lines that bisected the course.

"Some of us worship in churches, some in synagogues, some on golf courses ... "  Adlai Stevenson
Hyman Roth to Michael Corleone: "We're bigger than US Steel."
Ben Hogan “The most important shot in golf is the next one”

Andy Troeger

Re: What does everyone know about Hale Irwin's designs?
« Reply #4 on: April 29, 2008, 09:34:56 PM »
I've only played one of his courses as well, Coyote Crossing in West Lafayette, Indiana. Its a nice course although I don't really think its a standout. It uses a creek frequently (and sometimes well) through the middle of the course and overall is a fun and very reasonably priced course to play. I prefer it to the Kampen Course at Purdue if one only has a round to play in the immediate area (haven't seen Harrison Hills which isn't that far away).

Brock Peyer

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Re: What does everyone know about Hale Irwin's designs?
« Reply #5 on: April 29, 2008, 09:37:55 PM »
Was Hale Irwin involved in Tidewater in MB?  For some reason, that comes to mind.

cary lichtenstein

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Re: What does everyone know about Hale Irwin's designs?
« Reply #6 on: April 29, 2008, 09:39:39 PM »
I'm pretty sure that Hale Irwin did the Mountain Course at Cordillera. I have played it half dozen times, it is ok, routing is difficult, not the best, most don't like it and/or can't play it.
Live Jupiter, Fl, was  4 handicap, played top 100 US, top 75 World. Great memories, no longer play, 4 back surgeries. I don't miss a lot of things about golf, life is simpler with out it. I miss my 60 degree wedge shots, don't miss nasty weather, icing, back spasms. Last course I played was Augusta

Jim Sweeney

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Re: What does everyone know about Hale Irwin's designs?
« Reply #7 on: April 29, 2008, 10:09:37 PM »
Ther is an HI course in New Mexico near Black Mesa. No one talks about it. That may be because it opened in the same time period as Black Mesa, Paako , and Twin Warriors. When I went to Balck Mesa I asked about it and my friend said to not bother.
"Hope and fear, hope and Fear, that's what people see when they play golf. Not me. I only see happiness."

" Two things I beleive in: good shoes and a good car. Alligator shoes and a Cadillac."

Moe Norman

Tommy Williamsen

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Re: What does everyone know about Hale Irwin's designs?
« Reply #8 on: April 29, 2008, 11:07:55 PM »
I played Wakefield and Cordillera.  He puts a premium on driving it straight but I found the greens a bit boring.  If I recall correctly he likes to go up and down hills rather than traversing them.  It has been a number of years since I played them.
Where there is no love, put love; there you will find love.
St. John of the Cross

"Deep within your soul-space is a magnificent cathedral where you are sweet beyond telling." Rumi

Andy Troeger

Re: What does everyone know about Hale Irwin's designs?
« Reply #9 on: April 29, 2008, 11:12:20 PM »
Ther is an HI course in New Mexico near Black Mesa. No one talks about it. That may be because it opened in the same time period as Black Mesa, Paako , and Twin Warriors. When I went to Balck Mesa I asked about it and my friend said to not bother.

That is true...its called Towa, although Irwin I think only designed part of it (they have 27 holes). I haven't seen it...if I drive up there I have a hard time not driving straight to BM.

Kirk Gill

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Re: What does everyone know about Hale Irwin's designs?
« Reply #10 on: April 30, 2008, 12:26:34 AM »
I've played a couple of Irwin's designs near Denver. Indian Peaks up in Lafayette, and Highlands Ranch Golf Club down in, well, Highlands Ranch.

My friends in Boulder play Indian Peaks a lot - it's a public course, not too expensive (I think it was around $40 last time I was there), bunkers of the amoeba school, always pinching around the landing area. Not my favorite course, but it has really nice mountain views, and is well-maintained for the price.

Highlands Ranch has a different feel, different bunkering style (rounder, if that makes any sense) a few really straight-ahead holes, has a fairly open feel for a course surrounded by  housing. Nicely rolling terrain, for the most part. I like Highlands Ranch better than IP, but it's more expensive.

The courses, to my eye, are just not that similar. Does anyone know what design associates Hale used on his courses? Is he a big on-site guy?
"After all, we're not communists."
                             -Don Barzini

Wayne_Freedman

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Re: What does everyone know about Hale Irwin's designs?
« Reply #11 on: April 30, 2008, 12:40:39 AM »
Is  that the same Hale Irwin who does not like The Old Course?


Bill Shamleffer

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Re: What does everyone know about Hale Irwin's designs?
« Reply #12 on: April 30, 2008, 09:19:47 AM »
Is  that the same Hale Irwin who does not like The Old Course?



I have never heard that Hale Irwin does not like The Old Course.  Are you thinking of Scott Hoch?

I have played Irwin's Quail Creek, a muni in St. Louis and one of his early designs.  There is nothing flashy about this course, but it is an above average muni.  It is the right design for the intended use (low cost to construct and maintain, but still quality layout, challenging to all levels but not overly difficult so that pace of play will be good, able to with stand a lot of play, and able to tolerate the high variance of weather encountered in the Mid-West).

I know his company was involved in the restoration of Forest Park golf course in the city of St. Louis.  I do not know the extent of Hale Irwin's involvement in the restoration, but the course is very much improved.  The old layout had some character and some quirks, but also had quite a bit of flaws and needed a complete overhaul.  The restoration was constrained due to other uses desired for some parts of the old course (the course is inside a city park with ponds, streams, woods, ballfields, tennis courts, museums, a zoo, ice rink, outdoor theater, walking/running/bike paths, and public roads).  Yet the restoration resulted in a better course and layout, while preserving some of the best holes form the old course (in my opinion).

Boone Valley outside of St. Louis used to host a Senior Tour tournament, that was even adapted as a match play event for a couple of years.  It also hosted last year's USGA Junior Championship.  But I have never seen much of this course in person to be able to discuss its merits.

Per his web site his company was also involved in some restoration work at Old Warson C.C. (where he is a member and has been from most of his time in St. Louis) and at Norwood Hills C.C.  I am not sure what this entailed.
« Last Edit: April 30, 2008, 09:23:44 AM by Bill Shamleffer »
“The race is not always to the swift, nor the battle to the strong, but that's the way to bet.”  Damon Runyon

Jay Flemma

Re: What does everyone know about Hale Irwin's designs?
« Reply #13 on: April 30, 2008, 09:31:41 AM »
what do people think about that course with the reversible routing?

I'm trying to find the link to the website, but having a fit finding it today...it had a routinhg totally reversible...something I thought at least interesting and cerebral...

Hiya Shaffer!  How's Philly?

Jay Flemma

Re: What does everyone know about Hale Irwin's designs?
« Reply #14 on: April 30, 2008, 09:36:02 AM »
Found it!  This one:

http://www.tetonreserve.com/golfcourse.html  Reversible.

Dark Helmet (Rick moranis):  It's reversible!

Mel Brooks:  Like my rain coat!

That's a Spaceballs reference for those of you scoring at home.

Scott_Burroughs

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Re: What does everyone know about Hale Irwin's designs?
« Reply #15 on: April 30, 2008, 10:36:23 AM »
I've played TPC@Wakefield Plantation (7 minutes from my house - drive by it all the time) and Meadowlands in NC.  Both are decent, but not great.

The TPC course actually has 2 holes w/centerline bunkers (that actually affect decision-making), but the rest of the course is so-so.

http://www.tpcatwakefieldplantation.com/

http://www.meadowlandsgolfclub.com/

A few years back, there was supposed to be another golf project (though w/real estate, IIRC)
called Prairie Sands in the Sandhills of Nebraska, with a course designed by Hale Irwin, but it fell through somehow.



For Jay:  "I bet she gives good helmet."

A.G._Crockett

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Re: What does everyone know about Hale Irwin's designs?
« Reply #16 on: April 30, 2008, 10:42:04 AM »
Was Hale Irwin involved in Tidewater in MB?  For some reason, that comes to mind.

Brock,
I don't think so.  Rees Jones supposedly did the routing, but ended up out of the project, which was finished by Ken Tomlinson, who is credited with the greens and bunkering.  Tomlinson's name is on the course, Jones' is not.
"Golf...is usually played with the outward appearance of great dignity.  It is, nevertheless, a game of considerable passion, either of the explosive type, or that which burns inwardly and sears the soul."      Bobby Jones

A.G._Crockett

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Re: What does everyone know about Hale Irwin's designs?
« Reply #17 on: April 30, 2008, 10:45:31 AM »
I've only played his Meadowlands course in North Carolina and found it to be your standard "nice" golf course in a housing community.

This is the Meadowlands course in Winston-Salem, not to be confused with the Willard Byrd course by the same name in Calabash, north of Myrtle Beach.
"Golf...is usually played with the outward appearance of great dignity.  It is, nevertheless, a game of considerable passion, either of the explosive type, or that which burns inwardly and sears the soul."      Bobby Jones

Wayne_Freedman

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Re: What does everyone know about Hale Irwin's designs?
« Reply #18 on: April 30, 2008, 11:24:08 AM »
You are absolutely correct.
How could anyone confuse one wirh the other?



Is  that the same Hale Irwin who does not like The Old Course?



I have never heard that Hale Irwin does not like The Old Course.  Are you thinking of Scott Hoch?

I have played Irwin's Quail Creek, a muni in St. Louis and one of his early designs.  There is nothing flashy about this course, but it is an above average muni.  It is the right design for the intended use (low cost to construct and maintain, but still quality layout, challenging to all levels but not overly difficult so that pace of play will be good, able to with stand a lot of play, and able to tolerate the high variance of weather encountered in the Mid-West).

I know his company was involved in the restoration of Forest Park golf course in the city of St. Louis.  I do not know the extent of Hale Irwin's involvement in the restoration, but the course is very much improved.  The old layout had some character and some quirks, but also had quite a bit of flaws and needed a complete overhaul.  The restoration was constrained due to other uses desired for some parts of the old course (the course is inside a city park with ponds, streams, woods, ballfields, tennis courts, museums, a zoo, ice rink, outdoor theater, walking/running/bike paths, and public roads).  Yet the restoration resulted in a better course and layout, while preserving some of the best holes form the old course (in my opinion).

Boone Valley outside of St. Louis used to host a Senior Tour tournament, that was even adapted as a match play event for a couple of years.  It also hosted last year's USGA Junior Championship.  But I have never seen much of this course in person to be able to discuss its merits.

Per his web site his company was also involved in some restoration work at Old Warson C.C. (where he is a member and has been from most of his time in St. Louis) and at Norwood Hills C.C.  I am not sure what this entailed.

Chris_Clouser

Re: What does everyone know about Hale Irwin's designs?
« Reply #19 on: April 30, 2008, 01:25:13 PM »
I'll echo Andy's comments on Coyote Crossing.  I think much more of it than he does.  It is a pretty good course, possibly top 10 public in the state of Indiana in my mind.  Andy has it a little lower.  It rewards shot making and has some interesting green complexes.  There is some similarities with three of the par threes, but other than that the terrain was used well to provide a variety of holes. 

Here is the link to the thread I started last year on the course.

http://golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,30844.0.html

Jay Flemma

Re: What does everyone know about Hale Irwin's designs?
« Reply #20 on: April 30, 2008, 06:31:56 PM »
Hi Chris!  Nice to see you swinging on my vine.  Thanks for the tip on the Indiana one.  If you wanna catch up, shoot me a call or hit me with your number again and I'll jingle you.

For Scott:

Dark Helmet:  Are we stopped?

Trooper:  We're stopped.  What shall we do now?

DH:  Well why don't we take a five minute break.  Smoke 'em if you got 'em!

Tim Pitner

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Re: What does everyone know about Hale Irwin's designs?
« Reply #21 on: April 30, 2008, 06:49:27 PM »
I've played a couple of Irwin's designs near Denver. Indian Peaks up in Lafayette, and Highlands Ranch Golf Club down in, well, Highlands Ranch.

My friends in Boulder play Indian Peaks a lot - it's a public course, not too expensive (I think it was around $40 last time I was there), bunkers of the amoeba school, always pinching around the landing area. Not my favorite course, but it has really nice mountain views, and is well-maintained for the price.

Highlands Ranch has a different feel, different bunkering style (rounder, if that makes any sense) a few really straight-ahead holes, has a fairly open feel for a course surrounded by  housing. Nicely rolling terrain, for the most part. I like Highlands Ranch better than IP, but it's more expensive.

The courses, to my eye, are just not that similar.

I've played these courses as well and, from them, I can't discern what Hale Irwin's "design theories" are (in answer to Jay's question).  Neither course is very impressive.

Indian Peaks is just sort of there--not very descriptive, I know, but it didn't make much of an impression on me.  Highlands Ranch tries to be more upscale and feels more "designed," but the routing through the homes is a turn-off and, for what's there, the price tag ($75+) is out of step with the Denver-area market.  Kirk, I'm not sure I don't prefer IP by a slim margin. 


Jay Flemma

Re: What does everyone know about Hale Irwin's designs?
« Reply #22 on: April 30, 2008, 06:58:15 PM »
Hi Kirk, Hi Tim:

Well I guess I got excited when I saw a reversible routing and thoughtn that the cerebral Irwin was actually going to be the second coming of Crenshaw.

Oh well...hope shattered?

Peter Zarlengo

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Re: What does everyone know about Hale Irwin's designs?
« Reply #23 on: April 30, 2008, 07:17:36 PM »
I played his Cordillera Course (a few days after the Kobe Bryant fiasco there ::) ) and would echo Tommy's statement about driving it straight.  It seemed like a real tight course for the resort clientele.  Also the greens played lightning fast.

I do know that both Hale and Steve are involved in a course in Maryland, currently under construction.  I saw some photos and there appears to be some large fairways with some great undulation in them.  Also, some really cool holes featuring some rock outcroppings made for neat shots.  I was told that they are getting more involved in the design process, especially Steve.

Tim Pitner

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Re: What does everyone know about Hale Irwin's designs?
« Reply #24 on: April 30, 2008, 07:21:57 PM »
Jay,

I wasn't aware that Irwin had done much nationally.  I assumed he was drawing on his CU background to build some courses locally here in Colorado.  From what Peter says, perhaps his ambitions are expanding. 

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