Is Sand Hills the greatest course in the US?

[Just Wondering]

I didn't mean to infer that nothing there was man made, it's obvious that you must move some dirt to build the coure.

The two tier second was fine w/ me, especially hot it fit's into that notch it lie in. I did find the ridge in the 5th green to be out of charchter w/ the course. Yes it was a neat design feature. It gives that relatively flat green some subtle movement which it benefits from. However, it just didn't fit. Why not make the hole flat, or given it's site, widden it to the left and give it a little right to left flow.

Not that I should be suggesting changes to C&C, not by a long shot. Just a little nuance w/ the course that i was wondering others found.

[Mike_Cirba]

See folks!  We're talking architecture here!  

I would agree with you that the 5th green does seem a little too "pat" with that ridge, although I really like it's location between the dunes.  I almost wonder if that narrow ridge isn't a natural feature, simply because it would seem that if you were inclined to move dirt there, something on a grander scale could have been done.  Are you suggesting that the green might be moved back and to the left a bit, perhaps more like 15?  That might work to maximize the preferred right hand side of the fairway.  

[Just Wondering]

Exactly Mike. I'm not sure a grander scale green would have worked better at all. The subtleness of the green site from the tee adds to the hole, just don't like the ridge.

As for extending the green site, you'd run the risk of interfering w/ the sixth tee if you go very far, as I recal it was very close already.

[THuckaby2]

Re #5, without the ridge the green would be VERY basic and flat, wouldn't you say?  

What makes that green site anyway is the incredible pit to the right.  Talk about another one you don't want to get into... dune to the left is very cool also.

And yes, 5 green is pretty darn close to 6 tee as it is.

TH

[Mike_Cirba]

Just Wondering,

I hear what you're saying, but wonder myself if that wouldn't make the hole almost too demanding from the back tee (the one where you drive OVER the 4th green).  From that angle, one already has to take a very dangerous line to keep the ball on the right side of the fairway, and if you don't drive it past the center fairway bunker, the approach is already blind with the current green location (trust me, I know!   ).  Into a headwind or right to left-crosswind, playability might start to suffer.  Anything further back and left would be almost "blind on blind" so to speak.  

I wonder if anyone "in the know" could explain the genesis of that current ridge in the green, though.    

[Just Wondering]

A green site pushed further back would be extremely difficult into any head or cross wind which i beleieve is prevailing on that hole.  

Tom, I concur that these gargantuan pits are to be avoided at all costs. One of my partners ended up in the dunker on the right hand side of #14 and I thought we may nevr find him again.

Far left hand side of the fairway to the green over the dune, between the leftside blowout is a tough tough shot!

After kicking it around, the hole seems to work pretty darn well!!

[SouthFla]

Hello all...

My name is John Andersen, and as a hobby I design golf courses for a computer golfing series called "Microsoft Links."  These courses are distributed via the internet for free, and allow people all over the world to download and play courses they normally wouldn't be able to.  

I am currently beta-testing Microsoft's new course designer to be released this fall, and am desperately seeking information about "Sand Hills" so I can design it for Links.  The Microsoft designer allows for unprecidented levels of realism, and as such in order to do a course properly I need to collect as much information as possible.

Generally, I used topographical data, overhead aerials, photographs, scorecards, and yardage/caddie books in order to accomplish my designs.  I also travel to the courses, and get the course owners to support my work by allowing me to tour and photograph the course.  However, because Sand Hills is so private, this is not a reality.

So would any of you happen to have graphical information about Sand Hills which you'd be willing to share?  I'm particularly interested in photographs, scorecard and yardage books.  I'd be more than happy to pay for any copies and shipping of said items, unless they could be scanned and emailed.

These Links courses are downloaded by thousands of people across the planet, and played on many "virtual tours" over the internet.  All contributions would certainly be acknowledged in the final release.

Thanks for letting me post here, and if anyone has anything that may help me, please let me know at "south_fl@mail.cofs.com" or "jdandersen@mdpd.com"

Thanks again,

john

[TEPaul]

You might try to contact Dan King, although I haven't seen him on here for a while. Dan appears so distressed with the PGA Tour and the tour players he believes they should be turned into "virtual reality". Is there any chance you could do that? If so, I'm sure Dan would help--he's good with computers and programs--that's for sure.

And as for you guys who are wondering what's natural and what isn't at Sand Hills--almost every single thing is natural!

I know that for a fact because Bill Coore told me personally that they only moved between 2-5 tablespoons of earth out there and then he pulled the tablespoon out of his pocket and showed it to me!!

[RJ_Daley]

Dear Mr. Anderson,

I envy your talent to work those computer design game programs and to realistically present the look of the courses.  However, I can tell you one thing and will be so bold as to speak for the individual who developed Sand Hills.  He was kind enough to let me roam the property taking as many pictures as I liked, but asked me to promise not to use them for any commercial purposes or reproduction for design means.  I indeed have many 100s of pics of SH but intend to honor his request not to use them for said purposes other than enjoyment between friends as a rememberance of visiting there.  So, I would say the bottom line is that they would not support the notion of a Sand Hills golf computer game, as thrilling as that might be...

[Dan Kelly]

Dick Daley --

You wrote that Mr. Youngscap asked you "to promise not to use them for any commercial purposes or reproduction for design means.  I indeed have many 100s of pics of SH but intend to honor his request not to use them for said purposes other than enjoyment between friends as a rememberance of visiting there.  So, I would say the bottom line is that they would not support the notion of a Sand Hills golf computer game, as thrilling as that might be..."

I think there's a second way to read that request -- and that's as follows: "If anyone's going to make a computer game of Sand Hills, I'm the one who's going to do it."

I mean no disrespect to Mr. Youngscap. I very much hope he DOES see to the creation of a Sand Hills computer game -- and profits handsomely from it. It'll be a damned shame if he doesn't, because most of the world's golfers will never get the chance to experience the place, even virtually. And they should.

[Mike_Cirba]

Questions of permissions, royalties, etc., aside, I think the biggest problem with Mr. Anderson's request is simply..

How do you capture ALL OF THAT in a computer game and do it any justice whatsoever??  

I have pictures too, but do any of them begin to capture the grand scale and essence of the place?  Do they accurately capture the topographic nuances and elevation changes?  

Sand Hills can be photographed, modeled, described, and analyzed all with the best of intentions, but there is truly no reasonable substitute for playing it.    

[Dan Kelly]

Mike --

True enough ... but!

"Playing it" electronically is the closest most people will ever be able to get to playing it.

It's no better a substitute than any computer golf game is.

But would it be better than nothing? Yes, I say.

[Joel_Stewart]

I played Sand Hills on Sunday and Monday.  The 5th green didn't bother me as much as the elephant buried on the middle left side of the par 3 6th.  

Lastly, even though they don't have handicap holes or rate them for difficulty I thought the 15th was the toughest hole on the course?

[GeoffreyC]

Joel - the beauty of Sand Hills is that it is many different golf courses depending on the weather/wind and even the tee box chosen.

#15 is a great hole with a particularly good green setting behing that dune on the left but try playing #2 from the back tee into the wind and then try to find the proper spot on that green to get a reasonable putt. That's difficult!  How about #18.  After choosing a line off the tee that depends on the wind you could wind up with a very long approach from a downhill lie to a severely uphill green.  

There are no handicap holes or course rating for a good reason.  There are about 100 different golf courses out there within those same 18 holes.

[Mike_Cirba]

Thought I'd bring this one back up for a friend who spent a lot of time looking for it.  

[Alex_Wyatt]

As I sit here looking at my Sand Hills photos and Sand Hills playing cards, I have a question: Can it be the best course if the greensites are repetitive? Aren't there too many skyline greens at SH for a true links?

[THuckaby2]

Alex:

You found the greensites repetitive because there were too many skyline greens?  OK, if that's the case, then yes for you it fails the "greatest" test.

I didn't find that to be the case at all...

But to each his own.

TH

[Alex_Wyatt]

Wouldn't one of your criteria for greatness be that a course offer choices rather than dictate shot selection? Elevated greens tend to do that. Don't get me wrong. I LOVE the course, but GREATEST? no way.

[Mike_Cirba]

Alex,

Which greens would you qualify as skyline greens dictating aerial approaches?

[THuckaby2]

Alex:

You find no choices at Sand Hills?  I find them all over the place.  And even on the skyline greens, one can run the ball up.  

No hassles - I do understand that people see this differently.  Obviously you and I do.  

To me it does remain the greatest course on the planet.  But as I say, to each his own.

TH

[tlavin]

This is a quintessentially subjective post, but a fun one nonetheless.  I played Sand Hills last summer and I loved the entire experience.  Driving from the airport in North Platte through the rolling sand hills and seeing would-be, could-be golf courses on both sides of the road for as far as the eye can see was remarkable in and of itself.  But the golf course itself was just unique and special.  Every hole is completely natural, beautiful and challenging.  But is it the best course in the country?  Not to me, but it's pretty darned close.

[THuckaby2]

Terry - close is good enough for me.  I fully understand the incredibly strong statement "best on the planet" is, and I absolutely don't expect many to agree.

It does work for me.  But I value a lot of things others might not.

TH

[Gene Greco]

"Wouldn't one of your criteria for greatness be a course that offers choices rather than dictate shot selection?" - Alex Wyatt

The answer is YES. There is no other course which offers more options for play from tee to green and then again on the green. Not even the Old Course.

Alex, did you really play the course?

If so, what were you thinking about when you were there?

You can run the ball up on every hole IF YOU CHOOSE TO with the exception of 17.

Every hole is designed to receive a bump and run type shot because if you're downwind you have no other choice.  

Even your putter needs to be used at times for an approach!

[Brad Swanson]

Gene,
   I'd be curious as to the number of "putts" Neil had during his tours of Sand Hills .

Cheers,
Brad

[Scott_Burroughs]

"You can run the ball up on every hole IF YOU CHOOSE TO with the exception of 17.

Whaddya mean?  There's about 5-7 steps of fairway to run
one on here...with a big draw....



Oh, and I think Neil's ultimate course needs only 3 clubs,
Driver, putter, and sand wedge (for wayward putts).