Is Sand Hills the greatest course in the US?

[RJ_Daley]

Josh's statement I am sure is generally true about guys mot wanting to play golf Oct-April in the Sand Hills.  Yet, I stand by my statement on the other thread comparing Wild Horse with Rustic Canyon, I feel that 2001 first week in October was the peak I have seen it.  I really think it was a magical time to play there.  The weather was just perfect, and Josh had the conditons at super maximum.  He should get some kind of turf award for how the course was conditioned.  

I am like Sweeney, I keep North Platte weather and local newspaper linked on my home page.  I guess my take is that there seem to be several days in March and November that would qualify for very acceptable golf weather by our Green Bay "frozen tundra" standards.  However, with Josh's small staff I could imagine he would be anxious to put the course to bed for the winter    Oddly enough, one of the coldest days I have played Wild Horse was with Proctor and O'neil a couple years ago 3rd week of August.  It just shows to go ya, weather is variable.

But, back to the question of SH being the greatest course in the US, I think one could never say on any given day if it is best.  Perhaps if you "had" to play SH a couple of times a week all summer, and that is the only course you saw for months, and you didn't get to avail yourself of the enchanting Dismal River facilities of dining and lodge, you might readily jump at the notion that PV or Cypress or Shinny or NGLA or any of the other usual suspects is "the" greatest.  Familiarity breeds contempt.   I looked around the table there the other night and tried to imagine what the Sand Hills meant to each of the guests as they relished the experience and talked glowingly about every morsel of the day, and thought of where they came from.  For the most part, their days are filled with urban jungle traffic and endless metro city scapes.  Just to drive up into endless vistas of sand hill country and look out onto long views of grassy prairie is a lifeline of refreshing recalibration of the old CPU between the ears.  To hear and see folks singing the praises of the experience to "sit out on Ben's porch" sipping and listening to coyotes is experiential and I think weighs heavy in the notion of how great the course is.  I don't think you can separate that experiential allure from the actual hard on the ground strictly golf design.  To have both a course of great design merit and enchanting locale is, I am sure, why the guys love it sooo much.  Would you start finding any faults if you played it 50 times from June to August, lived in Mullen and cooked your own meals?  

[THuckaby2]

Dick Daley, did I tell you how much I admire and respect you, love spending time with you, and learn from you when I saw ya?

If not, my fault, I surely should have.

You just summed up in one sentence my whole "take" in now ten years of battling over "golf course architecture":

"I don't think you can separate that experiential allure from the actual hard on the ground strictly golf design."

Damn right, brother.

And your post above sums up perfectly why to me Sand Hills is #1.  It's the whole "package" most definitely.  Anyone who claims to be immune to this, well... I'm gonna be nice and just say they are different from me.

And well said up above re the firmest and fastest course I've played in the US.  Bandon Dunes comes close, as does Pacific Dunes, but the screamingest, roaringest, putt-from-100 yards innest course in this country lies just outside Gothenburg, NE.  WELL DONE, JOSH!

TH

[Mike_Cirba]

RJ/Tom;

I wouldn't dispute that the amazing departure from civilization that is Sand Hills isn't part of the allure.  However, aren't most of the other greatest courses somewhat of their own little world's as well?

For instance, once one crosses the railroad tracks into Pine Valley, is there even a hint of anything of the crush of "civilization" beyond those gates?  When one turns up the roadway along the Peconic Bay at NGLA, watching the gulls flutter in the breeze, is there a more dreamy, detached spot on the east coast?  For those who have played Cypress and Pebble, do you feel impinged by the rush and bustle of everyday life?...well..perhaps Pebble, but most of the great courses are little oasises in the midst of the brutality of life, and refuges from the stress of living.

Sand Hills takes all of that, including most everything else, and blows it up to the grandest scale I've ever seen.  In fact, this discussion leads me to add two questions to my beginning thread;

How many courses are presented on such a vast, bold, grand, and overwhelming scale that not only fits the natural palette, but somehow manages to both appeal to and literally stagger the senses simultaneously?

How many courses have an "entrance drive" an hour long?

[THuckaby2]

Oh heck yeah, well said, Mike.  Just about all the truly "great" courses have this "allure" and "oasis" feature about them - besides the ones you mentioned (which are spot on) there are MANY in the UK and Ireland that are like this.  Dornoch comes the closest to Sand Hills for me in the "hour long entrance drive" category... it also is nearly there in the "grandness of scale"... Royal County Down feels this way also... But nothing matches Sand Hills for this... that's what I've been trying to explain to my buddies here for over a week now... kinda impossible to describe, isn't it?

TH

[Mike_Cirba]

Oh, and RJ;

I would concede that Sand Hills is not without flaws, or things that might be improved.  It is just probably the least-flawed course on the best property ever chosen for golf.

[THuckaby2]

Oh, and RJ;

I would concede that Sand Hills is not without flaws, or things that might be improved.  It is just probably the least-flawed course on the best property ever chosen for golf.

By a very strick, literal, Dan Kelly-esque definition, obviously there is no such thing as perfection - it simply cannot exist on this earth outside the theological.  So well said above, Mike.  Of course I'll still keep calling it perfection, because your words above are the definition of this term for me, as such applies to golf courses... and theology was a part of the Sand Hills experience for me also...

TH

[RJ_Daley]

Perhaps one of the greatest attributes of a sojuourn to the Sand Hills GC is the phenomenon of how much greater the experience is in the afterglow.  It seems one almost NEEDS time to reflect on the various aspects of the golf rounds there and the evenings of conversation and dining.  It is like letting a great photo develope in the solutions...  

But, I am going to have to either start drinking early in the day, or get out of this thread least I start a crying jag and blubbering how 'I love you guys, man...'  

[THuckaby2]

You beat me to that, Dick.

I am a sentimental sort and well... Sand Hills does bring that out and well... ok, I guess I oughtta stop also!

My quote at the bottom is gonna stay for awhile though.

TH

[John Foley]

If you think about hitting a golf ball around 18 holes, depending upon your likes, abilities & demeanur, many course could fit, for you "The Greatest Course...". For some it may be brutality of PV, the crashing surf & startegy of Pebble or Cypress or it may be the immaculate conditions behind the gates on Washington Rd in Augusta, GA. It is all about what is your perception of that certain place and the feelings it stirs within you.

For me (and it now appears many others) it is, and will always be Sand Hills. Two years ago when I went, my expectations we're high and experience is almost  

The vastness of scale, the vista's, the absolute stark beuaty of the surrounding hillsides. Looking around those thousands of acres and seeing nothing but the natural layout, feeling the sun & the wind and hearing the cattle & coyote's is amazing. How many other places on earth can you be that remote from all things commercial (cell phones, McDonalds, email..), yet be in the middle of a golf course and be enjoying that setting. Mike's comment about many of the great courses offering refuge from the stresses to life is true, but something about being THAT remote from civilization add's tremndously to the feeling.

For me, I truly beleive that no other golfing experience will ever match Sand Hills.

Mike C- I tried to come up w/ another comment on your list but anything I would add would fall short. Fantastic words.

Mike Sweeney - I love the "church" comment. Sitting on Ben's porch and reflecting over that view is moving experience.

The worst feeling I ever had concerning golf was seeing the entrance road in the rear view mirror and not knowing when I'd return.

I find myself often daydreaming of that little cabin in Mullen, NE and wonder when..

[THuckaby2]

I hate saying this, I know how trite - and damn elitist - it sounds - but it really seems to me that Sand Hills is one of those few places that can only be understood by actually experiencing it.  The many wonderful words in this thread give a good sense... no pictures ever give it justice... but still, it really does have to be seen to be believed.  Even then, I'd have to guess it never stops "revealing" itself, as our host Gene commented...

So right on JF.  Understood and completely agreed upon here.  Driving out I damn near turned around twice just to sit there for a little while more...

Speaking of "church" though, unfortunately the closest we got to doing that was a 19th hole playoff of a match between Brad Miller and me... we had great intentions of doing a late nine both days there, but somehow the camraderie, good beer, good cigars (for those who had them), wonderful view, complete serenity and comfort just kept us on the Porch.  

Some day... maybe... hopefully...

TH

[Dan Kelly]

Tom IV --

You write: "By a very strick, literal, Dan Kelly-esque definition, obviously there is no such thing as perfection - it simply cannot exist on this earth outside the theological."

To which I say: Now wait just a durned minute there, Mr. Huckster, sir! You completely misunderstand! I've never said anything remotely like that -- not in this thread, not in any thread, not ever, not anywhere, not in any forum, not at any time! I move that your remarks be stricten from the record!

Your statement of my views is not only off-course; it, is in fact, diammetrically opposed to my actual views, which are (limiting my comments to golf courses, though they are, in fact, extendable to human endeavors of many sorts):

I have said (years ago), and will say again (for as long as I live), that Sand Hills is perfect. So is The Old Course. So is North Berwick. So is Lahinch. So, I'm guessing, are quite a number of other courses I haven't had the privilege to play.

Which is not to say that any of them (like a perfect song, or a perfect sentence, or a perfect strawberry, or a perfect movie) could not conceivably be improved -- only that each of them is perfect.

If you see a contradiction there, you don't understand my theology!

[THuckaby2]

DK - I meant that simply as a compliment to your editorial skills.  By the strict non-theological definition of "perfect", no golf course can be.

I fully understand what you say above re Sand Hills, N. Berwick, TOC, etc.  - my apologies!

TH

[GeoffreyC]

Huckster-

I don't think its elitist at all to say that Sand Hills is one of those few places that can only be understood by actually experiencing it.

In fact, I think its a very common event to have to experience something first hand to really understand it.  Can you understand the experience of wanting to camp out to get tee times to play Bethpage Black with the masses and experiencing 6 hour rounds?  Is that elitist   . Nothing beats first hand experience when that is possible.

[THuckaby2]

Very well said and damn good example, Geoffrey.  The learning continues...

Here's a question:  even with all the incredible exposure, wouldn't Augusta fall in this category?  Pine Valley (with much much much less exposure, obviously)?  There are many others I'm sure but those two really leap to mind as being on a par with Sand Hills in this "must be seen to be understood" thought.

TH

[John Foley]

The interesting thing is if you explain Sand Hills to people who are not golfers, they think your crazy.

If you explain Sand Hills to golfers, who do not know of the place, you get much the same reply (your going to the midlle of nowhere Nebraska? Just to play golf?)

But look at the gleam in the eye of someone whose been there.  It like they know a secret, someone showed them the end of a great book, the piece of the puzzle that they couldn't get to fit.

And no, as Dick wrote, you can not "separate that experiential allure from the actual hard on the ground strictly golf design".  The place is so much more than that!

And yes, it's one of those very few, precious things in life really have to experience to understand.

[Dan Kelly]

Theology (cont.): I think there are MANY very precious things on Earth that one must experience to understand.

I'll go further: One must experience EVERY very precious thing on Earth in order to understand it.

Sand Hills is one of them. But it's not in any way unique in that regard, for my money.

[THuckaby2]

Right on, John F.  All of it.

For us provincial left coasters, the "you went to Nebraska to play golf??" incredulity is a given.  What has amazed me is actually how many reputable GOLFERS are unaware of Sand Hills... I played in a charity tournament the other day and the sister of a friend of mine was there - she's a former LPGA touring pro, played college golf at Tulsa - as in OKLAHOMA... and she had never heard of Sand Hills.

Amazing.

TH

[THuckaby2]

Theology (cont.): I think there are MANY very precious things on Earth that one must experience to understand.

I'll go further: One must experience EVERY very precious thing on Earth in order to understand it.

Sand Hills is one of them. But it's not in any way unique in that regard, for my money.

Hmmmm... I can understand this.  However, where Sand Hills is unique among golf courses anyway is how MISUNDERSTOOD it is by those who haven't seen it.  By that I mean, I can "understand" Augusta to some extent just from what I've seen on TV.  Obviously the elevation change and "feel" of the place would blow me away, and make me fully understand it in person, hopefully anyway.  But I don't think I have any blatant misconceptions of the place, and there is SO much data to add to this without actually being there...

People hear very few descriptions of Sand Hills, see very few pictures, that's it.  Its uniqueness has to be in how completely different it is in person, how much MORE it is, how absolutely unique and strange it is that "sand hills" topography exists out there nowhere near an ocean ... Ad this is all magnified given the difficulty to explain it, the very narrow focus of pictures, the lack of TV exposure, etc.

Oh, I'm sure there are other places that are like this also.  Dornoch comes to mind.  And in terms of life experiences, oh man let's not even go down that road.  Can any of us males truly understand giving birth, even if we see it, which most of us dads have?  

Sticking to golf courses, Sand Hills seems to me to be quite unique in this respect.

TH

[Brian Phillips]

I played the following courses within 6 days of each other a couple of weeks ago:

Sand Hills : 72 holes between Friday and Monday morning.
Pine Valley: 18 holes and stayed overnight
Merion East: 18 holes
Aronimink: 18 holes
Gulph Mills: sat in buggy and took pictures
Hidden Creek: Sat in buggy and took pictures

Obviously I enjoyed Sand Hills and Pine Valley the most.  My travels to Sand Hills started in Norway and took 52 hours.  My architect colleagues that I convinced to go with me said it had better be good...

We were not dissappointed!!  The place is a wonder of the world!!  Not just the course but everyone who works there is a credit to the whole set up.

I myself fell more in love with PV.  I don't know why.  I just loved the atmosphere of the place.  One of my colleagues preferred Sand Hills...

We were asked by a pro on our travels if we could rank the courses and one of my colleagues replied:
'We are architects and should not rank courses as it is subjective and how can you compare the courses?'

I totally agree.  Two of the greatest courses in the world but you just cannot compare them.

Brian

[RJ_Daley]

With that kind of determination, tenacious pursuit of learning/ understanding GCA, intrepid spirit to go where the design is, and capacity to take in that much in such a short amount of time... I have got to see a future Brian Phillips design!

[THuckaby2]

Brian:  can I be you?

That's one hell of an itin and I concur with Dick - can't wait to see a B.Phillips design!

There were PV members there at SH with us, and I'd imagine they prefer PV also.  And you're right, comparisons between the two are very tough, and you have definite political reasons NOT to comment.

But hey, I'm a joe schmoe with no connections to any part of this business, so I find it fun to compare.

I've not seen Pine Valley in person.  But I'd really venture to say it's the only course on the planet that might crack my personal top 3, which are all very close, but are now:

Sand Hills
Cypress
NGLA

TH

[Matt_Ward]

GeoffreyC said it best in explaining the only full way to appreciate Sand Hills is to actually play be there and feel the midwest wind as it flows through the property. Indeed -- a very surreal experience!

Sand Hills is more than just the isolation -- it possesses a solid mixture of holes and I guess it fits the bill for all types of people who do post on GCA from those who prefer elements of quirk and those who want real down-to-earth challenge that's ripe with so many unique options when playing. When I was at Sand Hills standing on the 18th tee at the tips with the wind blowing in and knowing full well the huge fairway bunker that protects the left side was waiting for me to decide my line of attack is something I'll never forget. Wow!

If I had to choose one course that I would vote as the greatest course in the USA and would what to play on a continual basis I'd certainly opt for the initials of SH but would choose the Long Island version which will once host our national championship again in '04. That's no disrespect to Sand Hills because it's a course / sensation one must experience directly -- no words or pictures can do adequate justice to the feeling you get when personally there. In my mind among the 25 best in the USA for sure.

Why Shinnecock? Tom Doak said it best in Confidential Guide which I paraphrase -- SH has been tested at the highest level of competition and can still speak to the average player. Few other courses can say both.

[David Kelly]

Tom H,
I played with a Sand Hills member last summer and he told me that once while in Palm Springs someone recomended that he play at a certain club.  It was one of those clubs with a name like "The _______".  

Anyway he approached the club, apologized for the short notice and talked to the Asst. Pro about playing.  He showed his Sand Hills card and offered to host a reciprocal.  He told me the Asst. Pro's exact words were, "I don't think so. I have never heard of Sand Hills."

[Mike_Cirba]

I hope this doesn't come off as half-baked, but I have to disagree to some extent that one needs to "be there" to have any understanding or accurate conception of Sand Hills.

What is perhaps impossible to accurately describe or assess from conversation or photographs is simply the scale of the place, as well as the "movement" of the terrain.  

However, I continue to believe that we run the risk of being very exclusionary and stifling here if we take the approach of saying that no one should feel free to provide commentary unless they've actually played a course in question.  

For those of you who've played Sand Hills, take a look at the couple of photos provided on this site and tell me what is somehow deceptive or contrary to your experience.  Yes, photos tend to flatten things a bit, but do those pictures give you any sense of the place at all??  A pretty accurate sense, perhaps??  Did seeing pictures like this on here and in magazines whet your appetite to head to the middle of nowhere in Nebraska to play Sand Hills in the first place??

http://www.golfclubatlas.com/sandhills1.html

Earlier in this thread, someone who came on as "guest" asked me some questions about whether I was just perhaps overly enthusiastic in some orgiastic afterglow of my recent trip to Sand Hills.  Now, I don't know whether "guest" has ever played there or not, but I think we should be welcoming that kind of challenging discussion here...not seeking to somehow elevate ourselves as beyond reproach because we've had the good fortune to have "been there".  

 

[Gib_Papazian]

Huckster,

Okay, with all this lyrical prose pouring out of everyone's keyboards, I still have not read an  explanation to my satisfaction as to why Sand Hills is "better" than:

Pac Dunes.

NGLA.

Pine Valley.

If isolation is the key, I have never felt so isolated in my life as I did at Pac Dunes.

Magical place? Try a cocktail in hand in the library at NGLA. Sit down on the couch in front of the fireplace beneath paintings of Macdonald, Whigham and the Judge.

Look to the left - because you are seated facing the 18th - and there is a statue of the father of American golf staring your down.

I have no doubt that Sand Hills is an incredible place - and I trust the Huckster's judgement - but it has not been open long enough to accumulate ghosts.

We shall see as I am going to schedule a trip.