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Mike_Cirba

In a shameless act of promoting this effort, I thought starting a new thread might draw more a few more readers than adding to the larger, daunting one that was started six months back.

As the article mentions, please provide any feedback or ideas to friendsofcobbscreek@gmail.com

We'd love to hear from anyone interested.

Thanks!

http://www.philly.com/inquirer/sports/20080427_With_a_little_help_from_a_few_friends.html

TEPaul

Good article Joe L, and thanks for your interest and your help to date and certainly with your help introducing FOCC to Barry Bessler.

I guess this kind of thing happens when we have a "Philadelphia Syndrome" in this town always trying to promote and glorify our local architects from the past.    ::)

Boys, I think our next step should be to bring those two world class "expert researcher/writers"  ;)  from California and Ohio in on this to conclusively prove that Charlie Macdonald and his son-in-law sidekick, Hank Whigam or the 'second best architect in America', GCGC's professional H.H. Barker or even England's great Harry Colt may've stopped in at Cobbs in 1914 or so for more than about twelve and a half minutes and did the routing and design of this course for Crump and Wilson and Friends because they were such novices they didn't know how to do it themselves.

If we could get them to conclusively prove that maybe we could take the fundraising campaign of FOCC national or even world-wide.

Mike_Cirba

Tom,

You're incorrigible.   

Let's leave that speculation out of this encouraging bit of good news.   ;D

Joe Bausch

  • Karma: +0/-0
People are obviously reading the Logan article.  I've received two e-mails already on the FriendsofCobbsCreek email addy, one being from a former president of the PGA of America.
@jwbausch (for new photo albums)
The site for the Cobb's Creek project:  https://cobbscreek.org/
Nearly all Delaware Valley golf courses in photo albums: Bausch Collection

Kyle Harris

Good article Joe L, and thanks for your interest and your help to date and certainly with your help introducing FOCC to Barry Bessler.

I guess this kind of thing happens when we have a "Philadelphia Syndrome" in this town always trying to promote and glorify our local architects from the past.    ::)

Boys, I think our next step should be to bring those two world class "expert researcher/writers"  ;)  from California and Ohio in on this to conclusively prove that Charlie Macdonald and his son-in-law sidekick, Hank Whigam or the 'second best architect in America', GCGC's professional H.H. Barker or even England's great Harry Colt may've stopped in at Cobbs in 1914 or so for more than about twelve and a half minutes and did the routing and design of this course for Crump and Wilson and Friends because they were such novices they didn't know how to do it themselves.

If we could get them to conclusively prove that maybe we could take the fundraising campaign of FOCC national or even world-wide.

That was being done back in November...

Mark_Fine

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Tom Paul,
I'm not sure what postive purpose your sarcastic posts serve on this site  ??? 

As I said on the other thread on this topic about Cobbs Creek; there is a very good chance that this course will get the money it needs to preform some major restoration work.  There is a CA non-profit group that Forrest and I are working with that has this course on their radar.  One meeting has already taken place and more will follow.  I remain optimistic as should anyone else interested in this golf course.
Mark 

Mike_Cirba

As I said on the other thread on this topic about Cobbs Creek; there is a very good chance that this course will get the money it needs to preform some major restoration work.  There is a CA non-profit group that Forrest and I are working with that has this course on their radar.  One meeting has already taken place and more will follow.  I remain optimistic as should anyone else interested in this golf course.
Mark 

Mark,

I think it's very important to make this very clear to everyone concerned;

A contract has not yet been signed between Billy Casper Golf and Fairmount Park Commission.

NO ARCHITECT or architects have been selected by anyone, and all of the discussion to date is VERY preliminary.

Although BCG and FPC seem certainly open to any and all funding sources, they also have concerns about any funding sources that would tie their hands in any decision pre-or-post restoration that they feel is their perview and responsibility to make.


I don't think this public jockeying for position serves any purpose for the greater good of this effort, frankly, and am disappointed that this has come up in this context.

« Last Edit: April 27, 2008, 01:39:57 PM by MPC »

RJ_Daley

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Mike, as I mentioned in the recent IM just sent, please feel free to cut and paste the idea on any correspondence you may be having with the "powers that be" concerning future efforts.  Or, send me and us IM that indicates if and when you think letter writing or contact would be helpful. 
No actual golf rounds were ruined or delayed, nor golf rules broken, in the taking of any photographs that may be displayed by the above forum user.

Mike_Cirba

Mike, as I mentioned in the recent IM just sent, please feel free to cut and paste the idea on any correspondence you may be having with the "powers that be" concerning future efforts.  Or, send me and us IM that indicates if and when you think letter writing or contact would be helpful. 

RJ,

I certainly will and thank you very much for your ideas and support!

Melvyn Morrow

Mike

Well done to you and the Friends of Cobbs Creek. It may just be preliminary work at the moment but keep the pressure on.

If you are able to restore Cobbs Creek, I presume to it originally 1915 Glory, then don’t forget that means no cart tracks. Original courses can be played with modern set of clubs & balls – as really no option, but you do have a choice with carts i.e. making it a walking course as it was originally. To contaminate the course with tracks after all the restoration work would in my humble opinion but a total travesty.   

Keep us all posted.


Jeff_Mingay

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Very interesting stuff.

Good luck to you guys. One day soon, I look forward to hearing that restoration of Cobb's Creek is complete!

Best,
jeffmingay.com

Peter Pallotta

Well done, and congratulations! You have a city official not saying "no", which seems to me a big, big victory and step.

Peter


Kyle Harris

Mike

Well done to you and the Friends of Cobbs Creek. It may just be preliminary work at the moment but keep the pressure on.

If you are able to restore Cobbs Creek, I presume to it originally 1915 Glory, then don’t forget that means no cart tracks. Original courses can be played with modern set of clubs & balls – as really no option, but you do have a choice with carts i.e. making it a walking course as it was originally. To contaminate the course with tracks after all the restoration work would in my humble opinion but a total travesty.   

Keep us all posted.



The 1915 course had paths all over the place. Many of which are still there.

Mark_Fine

  • Karma: +0/-0
MPC,
Maybe I misunderstood your post but there is no jockeying for position.  We are all trying to do something good for the game of golf.  Mike Cirba for example is well aware of what is happening (he introduced us) and is excited about it.  He and I have exchanged numerous emails and spoken on the phone. 

As an FYI - The group Forrest and I are working for is called Keep It Classic (just incorporated in the last six months or so).  Their mission is as follows:

"To restore and preserve classic municipal golf courses in the United States to their historical significnace in line with today's golf technology and to promote more traditional golf ethics to children."

This is a non-profit 501(c)(7) corporation that is purely philanthropic in their intentions.  Cobbs Creek happens to be one of many of our targeted courses.  If someone else or some other group comes in and raises (and gifts) $2MM or $3MM or what ever it takes to do the work, great!  Go for it!  We all win!  There are plenty of courses that will be lining up to take our money.  Again this is just getting going and you'll hear more very soon about some upcoming projects.

Mark
« Last Edit: April 27, 2008, 04:57:43 PM by Mark_Fine »

wsmorrison

MPC is Mike Cirba or should I say, Mike Cirba is MPC.  Either way, something does not jive.

Mark_Fine

  • Karma: +0/-0
Wayne,
I didn't know that nor did I understand what MPC (Mike was implying about jockeying for position).  Maybe he will elaborate but my post still stands about what our intentions are. 
Mark

Joe Hancock

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Mark,

I'm not sure if it should be in this thread or a new one, but can you tell us more about the organization? Who are the principals? Where it based?  Is there a website? Who can join?

Thanks,

Joe
" What the hell is the point of architecture and excellence in design if a "clever" set up trumps it all?" Peter Pallotta, June 21, 2016

"People aren't picking a side of the fairway off a tee because of a randomly internally contoured green ."  jeffwarne, February 24, 2017

PThomas

  • Karma: +0/-0
big kudos to all involved!

I played there once about 15 years ago and underneath the poor conditioning I could tell there was a pretty neat course waiting to be rediscovered

good luck!
199 played, only Augusta National left to play!

TEPaul

Deleted upon request.  :-\
« Last Edit: April 28, 2008, 06:03:51 AM by TEPaul »

Mark_Fine

  • Karma: +0/-0
Joe,
As I said it the other thread the concept is pretty simple and very exciting; Keep It Classic is a California Non-Profit Public Benefit Corporation that was formed to restore public access and municipal golf courses that have some historical significance, are in disrepair, would likely never get the money to make the capital improvements, and can impact lots of golfers/the game of golf in a positive manner.  As you can imagine there are dozens and dozens of courses like this around the country in need of help.  It is the vision of Dan Bergman, a very successful businessman based in LA.  He is networked with many well to do individuals and executives of corporations who also have a passion for the game of golf and are in a financial position to do something positive for it.  

Forrest and I bring both golf architecture expertise as well as extensive background in business management. We have also worked with non-profit organizations and are partners in the Keep It Classic corporation.   As such, we have been involved since near inception supporting the organization with the development of their corporate structure, marketing approach, corporate vision/mission statements, target properties, industry introductions, etc. etc.  In addition, Forrest and I will direct all the corporation's restoration and renovation efforts.

As I said in the other thread, let's take an example - a municipal course in Ohio completes a "request for funding" to Keep It Classic (in some ways it is like they are asking for a grant from the USGA).  We will review the request, make visits to evaluate the course/property and work with the course management to determine what level of funding is required to restore/renovate the golf course.  The request for funding along with our proposed plan/cost estimate will be presented to Keep It Classic's board.  If approved and we decide for example to provide $3MM to restore/renovate the golf course, it will be our job to oversee the spending of Keep It Classic's money.  We DO NOT provide the $3MM to the municipality.  We provide the improved golf course and gift all the work and capital improvements to them upon its completion.  On one of our projects, we will be partnering with Bill Kubly.  Bill is as you know, it CEO of Landscapes Unlimited.  We will commission his firm to handle the construction work of this particular project and we will provide all the direction/design work.  As I said, when the work is completed, the improvements will be gifted back to the municipality along with a proposed maintenance plan for its upkeep.  

Maybe Forrest will chime in but a website is under development (the corporation was only recently formed and there have been other priorities).  As you might imagine, this is not the kind of thing we are going to have to promote so we can give away our money  ;D   It will be more of a matter of prioritizing the target courses where we think we can have the most impact and provide the most good to the game of golf.  We have been working hard on two projects that are pushing dead lines (can't comment on them yet but you will know when they are announced).  

It is quite exciting.

Mark  
  
 

Mark_Fine

  • Karma: +0/-0
Tom Paul,
Nice post  ;) 

Joe,
I hope that answers your question.  As I said, maybe Forrest will chime in.  I need to get back to proving myself because I entered the business the unconventional way  ;)  Maybe I'll write another book  ;D
Mark

TEPaul

Mark Fine:

Thank you, I try to make informative posts!

Mark_Fine

  • Karma: +0/-0
Tom Paul,
If it is a crime for people to pursue a second career that they believe they are capable of doing and are passionate about, then I am guilty.  Gil Hanse was one of the guys who I met with early on.  He was very supportive and told me many people will tell me I can't do this, but he believed I had a great chance for success.  I'm had guys like Forrest Richardson and Scott Witter and many others step up and provide me much needed eduation and support as well.  This is a team business and if you build a strong team, you can accomplish anything.  Maybe I came in late and if that bothers some so be it.  If you don't pursue your dreams, what is there to strive for.  Many people talk about things they want to do or try to accomplish, but never pursue them (usually because there are naysayers who point out all the reasons why they won't be successful). 

I suggest we not derail this thread and get back to the topic at hand.  Hopefully someone will come in and do the right thing for Cobbs Creek.  That is the real issue here.  Anyone who wants to be involved and thinks they can help in some positive manner would be welcome as far as Forrest and I and Keep It Classic are concerned. 
Mark
« Last Edit: April 28, 2008, 07:42:19 AM by Mark_Fine »

Mike_Young

  • Karma: +0/-0
Mark,
I also got in this business the unconventional way by not working for another archie ....BUT I worked in the business for 10 years learning it before getting a project.......I am all for someone pursuing their dream in this business.....what I am not for is all the bullshit that sometimes takes place on this site where one makes it look like one has all of this expertise and experience when it is not there.....I see that alot on here....or they create a website that doesnt hold water....I dont know you so I can't say if that is you or not ....   it is so easy to do when one can use a digital camera and can opine over the ODG courses and what they meant to do.....personally I don't consider one in this business until they have a few courses on the ground and can actually profit from such work.....the talk part of this website is cheap.....I continue to see different guys in all regions retire from one job and print a business card stating   golf architect, golf sales rep, golf pro etc all to be in the "business".....BUT if you do have a passion and can do this stuff then it will prevail.....I WILL also say that this "charitable save the municipal golf course" route has been used before.....it is a great marketing/sales tool that guys have tried to use to acquire projects.....a couple of more are in the works as we speak.....THATS ALL IT IS....A SALES TOOL... but it might work....
BUT my biggest question about many of your post is .....
What do you bring to the table for FR?  I have read all of these post but never could understand the reasoning....
Best of luck with your pursuit.....

"just standing on a corner in Winslow Arizona"

Mark_Fine

  • Karma: +0/-0
Mike,
Thanks for your post.  Time will tell about Keep It Classic.  Please understand that it was not my idea or Forrest's.  It was Dan Bergman's.  HE SOUGHT US OUT for some reason, not otherwise.   In fact he interviewed many architects before asking us to oversee this portion of his organization.  Maybe Forrest and I are just good salesman or maybe he believed we could deliever what we said and what he and his board were looking for? Time will tell.  Also, be aware that this doesn't mean we couldn't do a project with another architect/firm.  We could do one with you if you think you have something exciting that needs money!  How much Forrest and I get involved will depend project by project.

As far as some of your other points/questions, I'm not sure how long it should take to get a project or write a book or do anything for that matter.  It all depends on the person.  Most people for example said I'd never get a golf architecture book published and should not even try.  I never wrote a book before, how could I do that?  Could I have done it on my own, of course not.  I couldn't do any of this on my own but I knew that which is why I didn't or don't work on my own.  Maybe you should ask Forrest Richardson or Scott Witter or Robert McNeil or some of the other people I have partnered with "what I bring to the table".  They could probably answer better than I although I know someone like Forrest probaby won't say anything nice  ;)  At the end of the day, I do my best and the clients will be the judge of what I have done and what I am doing.  You know how the business works.  Our book came out fine and many of our clients on the golf design side seem pretty happy. 

Thanks for the wish of luck.  The same goes to you.
Mark
« Last Edit: April 28, 2008, 07:43:04 AM by Mark_Fine »