Wind & Architecture

[Patrick_Mucci]

I get the feeling at NGLA*, Shinnecock*, Seminole, Bandon Dunes and Pacific Dunes, that the wind was a material factor in the design of the holes.

What other courses generate this feeling ?

*especially

[corey miller]

     PRAIRIE DUNES.

[bodgeblack]

Patrick,

Muirfield and Colts routing definately were influenced by the thought of wind posing a different threat on each and every hole.

It is harder to pick courses with out and back layouts.

I wonder if it was even considered in those old routings?

Jamie

[Patrick_Mucci]

Corey Miller,

How do you believe the wind factored into the design of the holes at Prairie Dunes ?

Is there a prevailing wind, or prevailing winds at Prairie Dunes ?

[larry_munger]

Mr Mucci, why do you think the wind was not a factor in the Maxwell's design of Prairie Dunes? I haven't been, but I have read the recent book on the club and Perry Maxwell. As I recall, the part of Kansas that PD is located is one of our countries windest spots. But then again, wasn't it Ben Crenshaw that said "there are 118 holes of golf here, all I have to do is find the best 18"

Tom Doak, do you think the archie's that did NGLA and Shinnecock though more about the wind than you at Pacific Dunes?

[Matthew Schulte]

But then again, wasn't it Ben Crenshaw that said "there are 118 holes of golf here, all I have to do is find the best 18"

Larry:  I believe that statement was made by Crenshaw regarding Sand Hills not Prairie Dunes.

[brad_miller]

Prevailing wind is SW, second most common is NE, have played both on the same day at 20MPH plus, different 18s.

MS, the origin of that now famous quote comes from 1937 and Perry Maxwell, although he never to my knowledge drew 118 holes on paper, unlike Bill and Ben with their wonderful map that is in the Sand Hills pro shop.

[Michael Dugger]

M Schulte

You are right, and you are wrong.  Ben did say it.  Perry did say it.  Ben about Sand Hills.  Perry about Prairie Dunes.  

You must not remember (or know about) what Larry Munger is referring to.

Great wit Larry!!!  I like it!!

M Schulte

Go read the Cigar thread to find out about what I'm talking about.  (Better plan on being there a while)

[corey miller]

Last time in Kansas saw an article hanging in clubhouse from the Hutchinson paper circa 1937 explaining the process Perry went through in the design of PD.  Studied wind for weeks on site so I doubt he choose not to incorporate his findings into his design.

The statement that has been referenced about eliminating the holes was there also.  With Crenshaw's reverance and knowledge of golf history I am sure he was fully aware that the statement has been made by Perry previously.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Larry Munger,

Mr Mucci, why do you think the wind was not a factor in the Maxwell's design of Prairie Dunes?

Where did I say that I didn't think that the wind WASN'T a factor at Prairie Dunes ?

If the wind comes from 360 degrees directionally, no matter how hard it blows, how do you factor it in to your design, unless there are prevailing winds ?

[corey miller]

Sand Hills has no course rating and I was told part of the reason for this was since there is no prevailing wind it can't be rated.  Surely, C&C took wind into account somehow?

Wouldn't adding width in the design be considered a change based on wind without regard to direction?

[larry_munger]

mdugger, you and me baby!

[Barry_Kruger]

Larry

Why are you encouraging mdugger?  He is a simple minded psycho who never made an architectural contribution to this board.  His single/simple minded goal is to dual with Mucci. He is not up to the task.

[Michael Dugger]

Mr. Mucci,

In order to fully explore the depths of the topic you have raised, I ask you to please define "prevailing".

Does this constitute the wind coming from the same direction 50% of the time, 75% of the time, 85%?

Does a deviation in direction between SSE and SE, for example, make a difference in what is considered "prevailing"?

Does the wind have to reach a certain MPH in order to be considered significant?  

Thanks in advance for the timely reply

  

[Michael Dugger]

Mr. Kruger,

Nice to see you have made it back to GCA.com, again.

I want to thank you for the very special private message you sent me last weekend.  I'd like everyone to get a sample of your mastery of the English language.

Larry Munger wrote:

mdugger

You are a snotty little idiot without a single original thought in your pathetic excuse for a brain. In searching the archives for your words of wisdom I do not see a single contribution to golf course architecture. Where do you ever find any self-esteem?

Considering this is now your third post, Mr. Kruger, it is quite obvious what lofty goals you have set for yourself when it comes to contirbuting to golf course architecture here at GCA.com.  

Should you find it the case that you need to have Mr. Mucci's back, let me kindly introduce you to Mr. Munger, he has taken over security for mdugger Enterprises.  

 I appreciate the private message, I really do

[Barry_Kruger]

mdugger

I don't come here to contribute.  I come here to learn!  I learn nothing from you. I believe I wrote the truth in my message to you. Bye now.

[larry_munger]

mdugger, I think it was that Barry character that wrote ..... that you reference in your last post.

[HamiltonBHearst]

Larry- it looks like mdugger is trying to decieve again.  like the misinformation he posted with the sandpines photo telling us it was the same land.

[Michael Dugger]

Dude, I never said it was the same land.

I said it was an example of the land to be found in every direction SURROUNDING Sand Pines.

[HamiltonBHearst]

you tried to deceive and Mr. mucci caught you.  Perhaps now that Mr. mucci has seen the surrounding land you guys can have a conversation.  You were bagged and then you got ugly and accused him of kicking his ball in the most despicable post i have ever seen.

[Michael Dugger]

This is getting silly.

I'm reminded of the great story Dr. Mackenzie told in Spirit of St. Andrew's.  Maybe Kruger can consider it a "contribution" to GCA.  

There's a doctor who moved to a small town to open up his practice.  After renting an office and hanging a sign out front not a person comes to see him.  

Soon, the doctor decides to head down to the local pub to have himself a drink.  (I know, I know, my version is not nearly as good as Dr. Mac's)  Each week the doctor heads down to the pub and has himself a tankard of beer.

Eventually, one of the locals comes up to the doctor and asks him what he's doing.  The local says that the townspeople have been talking about him and that the doctor's not going to like what the townspeople have been sayin'.

The doctor says that it matters not what they be a sayin', but that they be a talkin' 'bout 'em.

If you newbies have come for enlightenment, I suggest you pay heed to the notion put down by one jakab.  

be original
be yourself

Be a leader, not a follower


        

[Michael Dugger]

HamiltonBHearst

I did not try to deceive.  

I tried to use examples of the land surrounding Sandpines to give the forum a flavour of that area of the Oregon coast.  Many people understood.  Some did not.  

NEVER did I say that it was of the ACTUAL property.

In retrospect, I wish that I had been MORE explicit.

All I intended to show was that there was a great golf course waiting to be discovered in any and all directions around Sand Pines.  



  

[Patrick_Mucci]

MDugger,

If there was great land around Sandpines, why didn't the developers buy it ?

The immediate land to the east and south is occupied by commercial and residential areas, as is some of the land to the west, leaving only the land to the north, which we don't know if it was desireable or available.

We were talking about the land that Sandpines is sited on.  And, the land surrounding Sandpines looks nothing like your photos, unless you consider dense pine forests and scrub vegetation dunes.

If you'll look at the aerial, east, west, north and south, you will not find any land that looks anything like the coastal dunes located on the ocean, that you posted as representing the land immediately adjacent to Sandpines.

I took some photos of some of the holes, which I will have posted once they're developed.  The viewers can then decide which is the more accurate depiction.

If you want to discuss our opinions on the merits or demerits of the golf course I'd be happy to do so, but please don't pretend that the photos you posted weren't a perversion of the truth.

[David_Elvins]

THis is fricking ridiculous.  We do not nead to hear anymore about SANDPINES.   Please let this thread revert back to talking about wind and architecture.

 I think the real question, is not "which courses have allowances for the wind in their design?", but "which courses don't?" Whether you are talking about Britain or America (or most other countries,) the courses built in windy locations came first, and then the inland courses without much wind came second.  With the absence of wind architects were able to build more one-dimensional holes where the same dominant strategic choices were available every time the hole is played.  Fairways were able to be narrowed and forced carries were designed without bailout areas.  

Historically, architects modified their design principles to suit still conditions, not the other way around.

[Mike_Cirba]

David;

Nice, objective, succinct, accurate assessment.