[David Ober]

The faster the greens, the more precise a touch is needed. I'm *sure* there's a mathematical way to prove it, but it's not necessary. Just putt for a few months on slowish (8 - 9 stimp greens) and record your average miss and then go putt on similar greens in the 11 to 12 stimp range. The standard deviation of your misses will increase significantly. I *absolutely* promise you.

(emphasis added)

David,

since you are *absolutely sure* about experimental statistics you haven't yet collected, please tell us what will happen when you turn it around-- putt for a few months on 11-12 greens and then measure the standard deviation of your misses on the 8-9 greens. 

I have collected the data -- if not in a completely scientific manner. The greens in Southern California are all over the map depending on where you play. I've putted 11+ greens for long stretches of time and then moved to slow greens. The initial transition is difficult, with lots of putts left short, but after two or three rounds, the lack of speed and roll out on down hill and sidehill putts means speed control becomes much easier and, as a result, three putts are minimized.

In fact, my home course is a perfect example of this. In the winter and early spring (when our greens are running 11ish), I average about 31 putts per round. In the summer when they slow down to 9ish, I average under 30 putts per round. And since I'm in SoCal, I play year round, so it's not a playing time issue.

How can you even debate this with me? Everything is magnified on extremely fast greens. Misreads (especially on downhill or sidehill putts) quickly become disasters on very fast greens. Not so with slow ones.

When was the last time you left yourself a 20 foot comebacker on slow greens? How about 15 feet? Those type of misreads just don't happen very often on greens that stimp 8 or 9.

[JC Jones]

Tom -

Im not so sure people dont actually analogize smooth with fast.  Most people would probably say a smooth 9 is as fast as an 11 because I dont think most amateurs can really tell the difference in 1 or 2 stimp.  So, I think people actually prefer smooth greens, which to them feel fast because most of us dont play the best of greens on a regular basis.

Off topic, where were the pins on 8 and 11 that you chipped up to?

[Eric_Terhorst]

How can you even debate this with me? Everything is magnified on extremely fast greens. Misreads (especially on downhill or sidehill putts) quickly become disasters on very fast greens. Not so with slow ones.

Not debating, you're right it's a waste of time with someone who is *absolutely sure*

I just think there is more complexity to the question.

I think--but I'm certainly not sure-- the data would show what Bob Crosby says is true.  In putting, isn't it the mental attitude, the stroke, the skill that comes from practice, not the speed of the green that  really matters?

Putting on fast greens isn't any harder for good players than putting on slow greens. They adjust to both.

[Jim_Coleman]

    I like putting on fast greens for two reasons.
    First, I putt better on fast greens.  The harder I have to hit a putt, the more likely that I will not hit it where I am aiming.  That's true whether I'm putting from 60 feet or 6 feet.  Second, I find fast greens to be more fun.  The penalty for hitting the ball to the wrong place on a green is far more severe on fast greens.  So good shots and good strategy are more rewarded on fast greens.

[Rich Goodale]

Tom

As Jim C says above (and others have too, I'm sure) the answer to your question is "Because they are fun!"

IMHO, being able to design greens (and their surrounds) which are both fascinating to look at and AND playable and multi-pinnable at high speeds (11+), is one of the supreme gifts which defines a great golf course designer.  A number of greens at Dornoch are my gold standard for this (e.g., 1, 3, 4, 5, 7, 10, 11, 14, 15, 17) and I remember a few at Pacific Dunes, too.

Rich

[jeffwarne]

Jim,
Of course you putt better on fast greens-they're easier for better players

Amazing to me how we constantly look for ways to "protect par" and the answer is right in front of us.
Slower, firmer, undulating greens that affect the first bounce depending on the angle played in from.
They're more difficult (the corrallary of a "I putt better on fast greens")
for good players (and arguably easier for better players) and are cheaper to maintain-and the larger undulations make approach angles more important.

Ego and the "mine's bigger" factor is the main deterrant

Richard,
Do you think Dornoch's greens were designed to be played at 11+?
that would be a really farsighted architect. (and the greens must've seemed really boring all those years they ran at 5-7 in the first 3/4 of this century)
and do they ever run at 11+?

Does Pacific Dunes run 11+ever?

both have wonderful sets of greens ,but I can't imagine they were designed to run at those speeds (given when Dornoch was designed and the windy locales of both courses)

[Adrian_Stiff]

I think that many people dont realise just how fast an 11 stimp is. 9 is pretty quick. I am not sure greens cant consistently be kept running at 11, this cant be great for turf. It could not be done in the UK that's for sure. Are you guys sure you are definitely putting on 11+ greens?
Are there not some significant difficulties in maintaining turf to always run at 11?

[Sean_A]

I think that many people dont realise just how fast an 11 stimp is. 9 is pretty quick. I am not sure greens cant consistently be kept running at 11, this cant be great for turf. It could not be done in the UK that's for sure. Are you guys sure you are definitely putting on 11+ greens?
Are there not some significant difficulties in maintaining turf to always run at 11?

Adrian, like wind, I too wonder if folks don't exaggerate green speeds.  I may be wrong, but it seems to me that green speeds are slowing down in the UK - most are too slow if you ask me.  Generally speaking, 9 is quite quick here and so far as I am concerned that is a good compromise between cost and fun, but I think 7ish is more common.  When the greens firm up in the summer I spose 7ish is fine, but still not ideal.  I don't often play in the high season in the States anymore, but I haven't seen any quick greens there for many years.  In fact, I haven't seen too many greens that I would say were in good nick regardless of speed.  Perhaps my reputation as a rubbish putter precedes me!

Ciao 

[Rich Goodale]

Jeff

Dornoch greens rarely run at 11+, but when they do (for a week or two every 2-4 years) hold onto your horses!  The last time this happened was in August 2004 during the Carnegie Shield, and it was the most fun I have ever had playing golf (possibly because I qualified...).  A week or so later, they held an elite ((+1 and better to enter) amateur tournament, and only one player broke 300 over 4 rounds.  It was said that the greens reached 14 at times over those 3 days.  Now that might be stretching it....

And, no, the greens were never designed for any sort of speed.  In fact, they were really not "designed"t found, cut, weeded, sanded, cut, weeded, etc. for decades.  I doubt if the multitude of designers of the course could have contemplated how the greens would play with today's agronomy and speeds.  However, whether it be foresight or just serendipity, all those great greens can easily play at 11+ without it getting goofy.  I've been there, then.

I'm just assuming that some of the best of the Pacific Dunes greens 4, 7, 8? etc.) could be just as robust, but as the only 4 roiunds I've played there were in November shortly after it opened, I'll probably never know....

Rich

[Rich Goodale]

I think that many people dont realise just how fast an 11 stimp is. 9 is pretty quick. I am not sure greens cant consistently be kept running at 11, this cant be great for turf. It could not be done in the UK that's for sure. Are you guys sure you are definitely putting on 11+ greens?
Are there not some significant difficulties in maintaining turf to always run at 11?

Sean (and Adrian)

I never quote green speeds unless somebody authoritative has told me it is so.  I do know enough about relative speeds from my days playing in California to know what 11+ feels like, and trust me, you can get 11+ speeds on UK greens--but it takes a lot of effort on the part of the greens staff to make it so.  Very few clubs here have the desire or money or member patience to make it happen.

Rich

Adrian, like wind, I too wonder if folks don't exaggerate green speeds.  I may be wrong, but it seems to me that green speeds are slowing down in the UK - most are too slow if you ask me.  Generally speaking, 9 is quite quick here and so far as I am concerned that is a good compromise between cost and fun, but I think 7ish is more common.  When the greens firm up in the summer I spose 7ish is fine, but still not ideal.  I don't often play in the high season in the States anymore, but I haven't seen any quick greens there for many years.  In fact, I haven't seen too many greens that I would say were in good nick regardless of speed.  Perhaps my reputation as a rubbish putter precedes me!

Ciao 

[Adrian_Stiff]

Richard- You can get UK greens up to 11 but not for long, that was more the point I was making, I think a 9 stimp in the UK is much more the normal good fast putting norm and the benchmark figure UK people think off as FAST. Surely with seasons in the US there must be slow times too.

[David Ober]

How can you even debate this with me? Everything is magnified on extremely fast greens. Misreads (especially on downhill or sidehill putts) quickly become disasters on very fast greens. Not so with slow ones.

Not debating, you're right it's a waste of time with someone who is *absolutely sure*

I just think there is more complexity to the question.

I think--but I'm certainly not sure-- the data would show what Bob Crosby says is true.  In putting, isn't it the mental attitude, the stroke, the skill that comes from practice, not the speed of the green that  really matters?

Putting on fast greens isn't any harder for good players than putting on slow greens. They adjust to both.

They do adjust to both. It's just harder to adjust to -- and you will have lots more long comebackers on -- very fast greens versus slowish ones. If nothing else, think about how many times you have played very fast greens and been left with a putt over a slope or ridge that you literally cannot stop the ball anywhere near the hole. This happens regularly on fast greens and very rarely, if ever, on slow greens.

On my course alone there are several holes where, if you are on the wrong side of the pin and the greens are at 11+, you are lucky to stop the ball within six to twelve feet even if you hit a perfect putt. Again, in the summer with the greens at 9, this is not much of a problem. A well struck putt with just the right speed can still be made to stop at the hole or maybe just past.

Now understand I'm not talking about greens that are just "fast" as many people would consider them. Most people can adjust to greens running at 10 or even 11. It's when they starting getting up there past 11 that it becomes really difficult to get the speed right and roll out on downhill and sidehill ticklers starts to become a major issue.

But sounds like I won't sway you on this, and I know for sure you won't sway me. I've had far too much personal experience with both slow and ridiculously fast greens in both casual and tournament play. I'm sure you have plenty of experience, too, and evidently it tells you something different than mine does.

I will say this in closing: There is certainly a range in which there is little difference in ones ability to make putts (assuming sufficient time to become acclimated to the speed). In my experience, that speed range is probably somewhere between 8 and 11 on the stimp. Once greens start getting up into the 11.5 to 12.5+ range, though, you start seeing fewer and fewer golfers able to roll the ball with the speed control necessary to putt well.

[Rich Goodale]

Agreed, Adrian.  Thanks.

[David Ober]

Richard- You can get UK greens up to 11 but not for long, that was more the point I was making, I think a 9 stimp in the UK is much more the normal good fast putting norm and the benchmark figure UK people think off as FAST. Surely with seasons in the US there must be slow times too.

Depends where you are in the country and, especially, what kind of grass your greens are made of. Getting Bermuda greens up past 10 is very difficult. In fact, I don't know that I've ever putted Bermuda greens that were over 10. Bent and poa are a completely different story. In the winter in SoCal, it's easy to get poa to 11 or even higher.

[John_McMillan]

I think it's an ego-driven demand, but also something which feeds the egos of the better player versus the handicap player.  As "handicap player" putts off the front of the green, "scratch player" feels rewarded for the hours of practice which allow him to 2-putt.  His "insight" into the game also allows him increased prominence at club meetings where green speeds are discussed, and anyone who has not handled the faster green speeds must cower before the better player's command of all things related to golf.

[John Kavanaugh]

Are private jets ego driven or just better?

[Kalen Braley]

I've always felt greens running at 9-10 on the stimp are fast.....at least to me they are.  Perhaps I've played one too many muni at 7ish conditions.  If the greens are rolling true, not sure why one would need or want them any slower than that.

By all means, give the greens more undulation, slow em down a bit and have some fun with those putts.  If memory serves me right, last time at Pacific the greens were running in the 9-10 range and very pure and they were perfectly fine.

Kalen

[Dean Stokes]

I don't know why people need fast greens although it seems to be a necessary evil if you are to have a top ranked course. There seems to be some correlation  between good courses and how fast the damn greens are.
The problem I've found with this is that half of the greens on these fine courses were not designed to run at 11/12/13+.
When there is no physical way you can get a 15 foot putt inside of 10 feet no matter which way you go -  that would seem to be a problem both with course set up and/or design?
I have both worked/ played at several clubs where the greens run consistently 10+ yet the courses would play better if they were -10. I know the members I play and watch would have more fun!!

[tlavin]

Fast greens, like fast cars, fast women and brown liquor, are an acquired taste.  Most good players I know like fast greens, but when I say fast, I mean 10-ish on the Stimpmeter.  There's not much reason for us common slugs to put greens any faster than that, but once you're used to it, putting on slow greens is quite frustrating.  The problem with fast greens relates principally to unrealistic expectations on the course superintendent.  My experience has been that private club members can be educated on green speeds as they relate to the health of the turf grass, but it is a battle.

And yes, it's probably ego as well.

[JR Potts]

I've written this before but I like fast greens for one main reason: I'm a way better tapper than hitter.

[Tommy Williamsen]

Anything can be ego driven.  That's not the point.  The greens at my club generally run around ten in peak season.  I like fast greens.  To putt them does require better touch.  I remember seeing Dave Pelz do an experiment with fast greens v slow greens.  He used some king of device whereby you could program the velocity of the putter head against the ball.  I don't remember the exact variation but on a 20 foot putt just 5% more velocity produced a much longer putt than on slow greens.  You can get away with more on slower greens. 

Last summer I played Aronimink.  They have some of the best shaped greens I have played.  Some of the slope was a bit much for the speed of the greens.  This was especially true of the first hole.  Would I have like them slower?  Probably in a tournament but for every day play they were grand fun.

[Tom_Doak]

Tommy:

That last bit I really didn't understand.  Did you mean that the fast greens would have been "unfair" for a tournament, but that you liked them that fast for everyday play?  So the day-to-day greens should be even faster than what tournament players can cope with??

[Richard Choi]

I don't necessarily want fast greens, but I want smooth greens.

I have hard enough time trying to read the green and hit the putt that I want. I don't want to add another huge variable on top of that by playing on bumpy greens where balls can roll off-line.

Since faster greens tend to be smoother, I prefer faster greens.

[jeffwarne]

This seems to be evolving into an arguement over whether a given green should be fast or slow.
Most better players like fast greens-I get that.
Certainly on most modern greens or greens without substantial pitch, faster is going to be more fun. Such greens have been designed to run at higher speeds and that's OK. Where I really go crazy is when great greens have the slopes reduced to accomodate more speed.
That's just silly/stupid (and ego driven) to me.

The reason I'd like to see a return to slower greens on newer and redesigned courses(say 6-9) as opposed to (9-12)is the return to undulation as well as the much lower costs and risks of maintenance.

The best and most interesting greens I play in my area are at a public course running at 6-7.
It takes great skill and precision to figure out where to land the ball when approaching them (and angles do matter more when approaching from the wrong side on a 5 degree slope than a 2 degree slope) and some of the putts have to be hit at right angles the slopes are so pronounced.
Downhillers are lightning, yet it takes incredible skill to get the distance right going uphill.

Such greens can be "tweaked " a bit for a big event as opposed to the difficulty of doing that when presenting greens daily at speeds closer to their agronomic edge.

[John_McMillan]

Since faster greens tend to be smoother, I prefer faster greens.

I wonder if there's any truth to the formula faster = smoother.
There's probably some correlation, since courses with larger maintenance budgets generally tend to make their greens faster, and faster might correlate with more maintenance and attention. 

However, holding other factors constant, faster also means:
  more water / softer (since grass is being forced to live a more stressed existence)
  more spike and ball marks (softer surfaces, less grass to resist)
  potentially more poa (more water keeps the poa alive).

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