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paul cowley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: John LaFoy
« Reply #25 on: April 27, 2008, 08:52:14 PM »
Although I have seen little of John Lafoys work, I have had the pleasure  of meeting and interacting with him through our association in the ASGCA.

A fine gentleman, and a superb blue grass instrumentalist...combined with  a great wife and son, Matt.

He also kicked my butt about a month ago while playing Muirfield in 30+ winds and rain.

If the ASGCA does little else but provide a forum where one can meet and interact with ones peers on occasion...then that alone makes it worth being a member.

I look forward to spending more time with John.

[hey...has anyone here had the chance to work with Phillip or Lanny Robinson out of Mars Hill?]
« Last Edit: April 27, 2008, 08:54:01 PM by paul cowley »
paul cowley...golf course architect/asgca

Michael Whitaker

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: John LaFoy
« Reply #26 on: April 27, 2008, 08:56:40 PM »
Tim - I know that The Walker Course got off to a bad start. If I remember correctly, the weather was totally wrong and everytime grass was planted it just kept getting washed away. For several years the course was pretty rough from a conditioning standpoint and got a not-so-good reputation in the upstate.

Today the total course is in excellent condition... not quite private club level, but almost. Don Garrett, the superintendent since '99, is indeed a Clemson grad and does an outstanding job. As you know, the course has bent greens, which is a challenge in this climate without a big budget and staff... usually only private clubs have bent greens around here. Don does a fine job keeping them in excellent condition.
"Solving the paradox of proportionality is the heart of golf architecture."  - Tom Doak (11/20/05)

A.G._Crockett

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: John LaFoy
« Reply #27 on: April 28, 2008, 08:02:20 AM »


Tim,
I've already indicated that I like John LaFoy's work, but that is a pretty tough comment in your opening sentence.  I've played the Walker Course, along with several others done by that same GCA, and wonder what your objection is?  I thoroughly enjoyed the Walker Course; what did I miss?

My point is simply that a Clemson graduate will most likely always be a golf course superintendent there and it is a shame that LaFoy was not considered to design it.  The construction was handled by a development firm out of Columbia and the "architect" for Walker was picked for reasons other than ability....if you want to know more I will have to refer you to my signature.

Tim,
I'm still not sure what you mean, especially in the last line about your signature, but in any case I have no doubt that John Lafoy would have done a great job at Clemson.  I've got to say, though, that I would rate the work of Lafoy and DeVictor as reasonably comparable; certainly DeVictor doesn't suffer in the comparison too badly, and he did a nice job at Clemson by any reasonable standard, didn't he?

You may very well have knowledge that I don't about how D.J. DeVictor got the job at the Walker Course, since I have no idea whatsoever what went into that.  But I think you do DeVictor a great disservice here by implying  that he lacks credentials or ability as an architect; he lacks neither.  You even wrote the word architect in quotation marks when you described DeVictor, as if that is not his profession, which it has been for many years now with some success.  I don't know if you've played any of his other courses, either new designs or redesigns, but he has done quality work a number of places.  Don't know where you are located, but I'll be happy to send you some recommendations.  In the meantime, taking cheap shots is a bit unfair.


Fine...we will agree to disagree.

Just discussing and letting my thoughts be known.

My point was...and remains to be....a Clemson graduate is the Superintendent there and will always be.....as it should be.

A golf course is/was built on Clemson land and a Clemson graduate that is an architect....and a dang fine one is not hired.  It is a disservice.  That was my original statement.......and I stand by that.

There are reasons for everything....and this has a reason also.

Tim,
I completely understand your feelings that a Clemson grad should be given consideration for a golf course on university land; I'd feel the same way about my school.  As to why John Lafoy didn't get the job, I have no idea, and since you seem to, I'll defer completely.

That said, you've shown the worst of the Internet here, taking hit-and-run potshots at D.J. Devictor, who IMO deserves better.  My wish would be that you either make your criticisms of his work clear, including how the process of changes to his original drawings was different at Clemson than at any other new course, or stick to being an advocate of John Lafoy.  Advocacy of Mr. Lafoy, justifiable as it may be, isn't really enhanced by drive-by shootings of another professional.  Devictor's work at Clemson is really a separate issue from Lafoy NOT getting the job.

If you swing down to the Atlanta area this summer, maybe we can hook up and play Devictor's renovation of Royal Lakes, or Callahan Golf Links, a brand new construction of his.  I think you would find both to be interesting and well-done, especially if you had seen Royal Lakes before he reworked the drainage, bunkering, tee boxes, etc.  He isn't widely known, like a lot of good GCA's, but he does solid, professional work, and gives the clients what they want for a final product.  You are his biggest critic, to my knowledge.

Best regards,
A.G. Crockett
"Golf...is usually played with the outward appearance of great dignity.  It is, nevertheless, a game of considerable passion, either of the explosive type, or that which burns inwardly and sears the soul."      Bobby Jones

Zack Kelly

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: John LaFoy
« Reply #28 on: April 29, 2008, 07:39:15 AM »
Correct me if I'm wrong but isn't LaFoy known more for his redesigns than his own complete projects?  Living in NC I've played quite a few Lafoy redesigns but not very many, if any original Lafoy's. 

Saying that I find that he does pretty good work, green complexes are ok, usually pretty interesting.  His bunkers I'd have to say I'm not a fan of they seem to be very cookie cutter, and not very easily maintained, at least that's what I hear from sup.s at his courses.  I also feel that his redesigns are done better as with most architets when he's are not given complete control of a redesign.

A few of  his past restoration projects in NC include Wilson CC, Greenville CC (NC), Cape Fear CC (which we all know has more recently been renovated my Spence), and Walnut Creek.

Anyway just my opinion.
Fairways & Greens
Zack Quinn Kelly

A.G._Crockett

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: John LaFoy
« Reply #29 on: April 29, 2008, 12:20:27 PM »
Correct me if I'm wrong but isn't LaFoy known more for his redesigns than his own complete projects?  Living in NC I've played quite a few Lafoy redesigns but not very many, if any original Lafoy's. 

Saying that I find that he does pretty good work, green complexes are ok, usually pretty interesting.  His bunkers I'd have to say I'm not a fan of they seem to be very cookie cutter, and not very easily maintained, at least that's what I hear from sup.s at his courses.  I also feel that his redesigns are done better as with most architets when he's are not given complete control of a redesign.

A few of  his past restoration projects in NC include Wilson CC, Greenville CC (NC), Cape Fear CC (which we all know has more recently been renovated my Spence), and Walnut Creek.

Anyway just my opinion.

Zack,
Are you sure that Lafoy worked at Cape Fear CC?  I've never heard this before; I think Willard Byrd did some work there way back when that changed the course somewhat from the original Ross design/routing.  If Lafoy did work there, do you know anything about the dates and what he did?
Thanks in advance.
"Golf...is usually played with the outward appearance of great dignity.  It is, nevertheless, a game of considerable passion, either of the explosive type, or that which burns inwardly and sears the soul."      Bobby Jones

Zack Kelly

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: John LaFoy
« Reply #30 on: April 29, 2008, 02:52:52 PM »
AG,
I believe that LaFoy worked at Cape Fear around 1993 when they added a larger parking lot and tennis and pool facility. He added 2 holes 14 a par 4 and 15 a par 3 and also built the new range. The 2 holes that were lost was old #10 which was a great par 3, the green still remains as a practice chipping green, and original 18 was also lost, but then brought back by Spence in the redesign a couple years ago.
Fairways & Greens
Zack Quinn Kelly

A.G._Crockett

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: John LaFoy
« Reply #31 on: April 29, 2008, 03:50:47 PM »
AG,
I believe that LaFoy worked at Cape Fear around 1993 when they added a larger parking lot and tennis and pool facility. He added 2 holes 14 a par 4 and 15 a par 3 and also built the new range. The 2 holes that were lost was old #10 which was a great par 3, the green still remains as a practice chipping green, and original 18 was also lost, but then brought back by Spence in the redesign a couple years ago.

I didn't know that LaFoy did that work, and also didn't realize it was that recently.  I'll check around and see if I can find out an exact date on that.

As to the current 18th hole, I'm almost certain that what Kris Spence built was NOT a rebuild of the original; I don't think that was possible because of the size and location of the current clubhouse.  What he built was the best "replica" of a Ross hole that he could, given some pretty tight constraints on space, and it is an excellent short par 4 at that.  I played at CFCC last July for the first time since Spence did his work, and the 18th wrecked a good round because I fell for it and got greedy off the tee.
"Golf...is usually played with the outward appearance of great dignity.  It is, nevertheless, a game of considerable passion, either of the explosive type, or that which burns inwardly and sears the soul."      Bobby Jones

Zack Kelly

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: John LaFoy
« Reply #32 on: April 29, 2008, 05:41:23 PM »
I totally agree that the 18th isn't the same I'm playing there this weekend and am looking forqward to it.
Fairways & Greens
Zack Quinn Kelly

A.G._Crockett

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: John LaFoy
« Reply #33 on: April 30, 2008, 08:31:09 AM »
I totally agree that the 18th isn't the same I'm playing there this weekend and am looking forqward to it.

If you run into a guy named Don Cooke, tell him I said hello, and I'll see him in July.  I'm pretty sure he'll be around...
"Golf...is usually played with the outward appearance of great dignity.  It is, nevertheless, a game of considerable passion, either of the explosive type, or that which burns inwardly and sears the soul."      Bobby Jones

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