[Jeff_Brauer]

Jim,

Then maybe thats penal architecture and not strategic?

[Sean_A]

Jim,

Then maybe thats penal architecture and not strategic?

Jeff

You are right, it is a penal hole with the minor aspect of strategy to get the ball close to the left rough for the best angle which also means a tree further up on the right doesn't have to be dealt with. 

It would be interesting to see the hole with a widened fairway to the right and the first two bunker gone.  If a player bailed right he still has to go over a tree and/or bunker protecting the rights side.  The green is also not all that receptive from this angle either.

Ciao

Ciao 

[Jim_Coleman]

   Is "penal" just another word for "difficult," and "strategic" just another word for "forgiving?"

[Jeff_Brauer]

Jim,

I don't think so.  I didn't know how the trees further up came into play. I think Sean and I, using hockey terms, would call that a "delayed penalty" but its not so forgiving.

I still recall the article by Wind where he said purists believed that one green side hazard is all thats really needed to set up strategy.  With a tree somewhat blocking the green, you can play safe to the right on the tee shot, but then must aim at OB and cut around it on the second. 

You pay me now or you pay me later. Its just that the second payment doesn't have to come from a bunker in strategic design.

[Doug Wright]

As John Sheehan mentioned in his post above, I think bunkers on the outside of a dogleg can be very strategic when the green is angled properly so that you have to challenge the bunkers to have the easier aproach to the green.  The short par 4 15th at my home course works this way. The dogleg is L-R with the bunkers on the left (outside of the dogleg).  The very small green is angled like this with bunkers on both sides: o/o  so one needs  to challenge the outside bunkers on the left side of the fairway to have a clear angle to the opening in the green. It works very well. 

[Sean_A]

Jim,

I don't think so.  I didn't know how the trees further up came into play. I think Sean and I, using hockey terms, would call that a "delayed penalty" but its not so forgiving.

I still recall the article by Wind where he said purists believed that one green side hazard is all thats really needed to set up strategy.  With a tree somewhat blocking the green, you can play safe to the right on the tee shot, but then must aim at OB and cut around it on the second. 

You pay me now or you pay me later. Its just that the second payment doesn't have to come from a bunker in strategic design.

Here are the trees in question.  From where I was just outside the second right bunker the trees were definitely blocking my ideal line/ball flight.


Here is the bunker guarding the right corner of the green.  The high spot left of the green used to be a bunker. 


I think there is a decent amount of space to play the hole as is, but it could be opened up a bit to allow a bit more space off the tee with the delayed penalty in mind.

Ciao

Ciao

[Kalen Braley]

As John Sheehan mentioned in his post above, I think bunkers on the outside of a dogleg can be very strategic when the green is angled properly so that you have to challenge the bunkers to have the easier aproach to the green.  The short par 4 15th at my home course works this way. The dogleg is L-R with the bunkers on the left (outside of the dogleg).  The very small green is angled like this with bunkers on both sides: o/o  so one needs  to challenge the outside bunkers on the left side of the fairway to have a clear angle to the opening in the green. It works very well. 

Doug hit the nail on the head with this one.

A dogleg hole with this type of situated and sloped green would be the perfect reason to have a bunker on the outside corner.

I can also think of how this scenario could make a hole play easier, and that is if there is OB just beyond the corner.  The bunker would catch and save many shots that would be OB otherwise.

[Carl Rogers]

The 5th hole at Riverfront has a bunker at the outside of a dogleg left.  The hole is a shortish par 4 and the bunker guards the only area of fairway with an open shot at the green regardless of pin position.  It is an aiming point from the white tees, but not the blue tess which are situated on a different angle that makes the hole almost straight away.

[Forrest Richardson]

Bunkers should, ideally, be wherever they tempt — especially the better, more skilled player. Regardless of the inside or outside, the more seasoned player will be thinking ahead. A bunker on the outside would ideally lure a player close to it to gain an advantage on the next shot.

[Matt MacIver]

Our first hole is a 360 yard par 4 with a 90-degree left dogleg.  The perfect drive lands on the 100 yd plate in the middle of the fairway.  The inside of the dogleg is guarded with rough, woods and a bad angle.  The outside is guarded by one bunker, streching from 120-150 yards from the green, with minimal front lip. 

It's essentially a saving bunker, as OB is another 20 yards past and balls would roll-out there unless the rough were pretty heavy.  If you're in the bunder it's "only" a 150 yard max shot to the center of the green, not even a 1/2 shot penalty. 

Given this is the first hole of the course (and our #18 handicap) I don't mind the bunker, nothing wrong with a gentle start.  But if this hole was later in the round I wouldn't be as forgiving. 

[John Sheehan]

Our first hole is a 360 yard par 4 with a 90-degree left dogleg.  The perfect drive lands on the 100 yd plate in the middle of the fairway.  The inside of the dogleg is guarded with rough, woods and a bad angle.  The outside is guarded by one bunker, streching from 120-150 yards from the green, with minimal front lip. 

It's essentially a saving bunker, as OB is another 20 yards past and balls would roll-out there unless the rough were pretty heavy.  If you're in the bunder it's "only" a 150 yard max shot to the center of the green, not even a 1/2 shot penalty. 

Given this is the first hole of the course (and our #18 handicap) I don't mind the bunker, nothing wrong with a gentle start.  But if this hole was later in the round I wouldn't be as forgiving. 

Matt,
Is there any advantage at all to being on a line directly between that bunker and the hole?  Does the green open up on the right side? When you say that you, "wouldn't be as forgiving" if the hole came later in the sequence do you mean that you don't mind that the bunker is of little strategic importance, or that it is so forgiving itself?

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