[Peter Pallotta]

I was driving through New Jersey the other day, south towards New York City. From what I could see, the whole state could've served as a home for Pine Valley. Maybe part of why Pine Valley is so highly regarded is that it fits in so very well. It fits in not only with its site and its surrounds, but with the entire state of New Jersey.

Peter

[JESII]

It certainly was built on great terrain...but a poor (or even average) course could well have been built there...

Like any "best in class", it is my opinion that there are dozens of factors that make it what it is...

[JESII]

I do think that what you noticed helps explain the incredibly high number of great golf courses in the Philadelphia to New York corridor...terrain...

[Peter Pallotta]

JES - yes on both your points. (I also cut through some of Pennsylvania and New York State - just lovely and good terrain).  But it reminded of something I tossed out a while back, i.e. that what the eye sees for miles and miles around before getting to the golf course might have an impact on how we judge or feel about the architecture and the course. Mr. Crump (or someone else) might not have done as good a job, but he had something very valueable in hand: he had the natural surrounds that 'surrounded' the course and the entire state...and then he had the desire to honour those sorrounds

Peter

[JESII]

...what the eye sees for miles and miles around before getting to the golf course might have an impact on how we judge or feel about the architecture and the course...
Peter

I'm struggling with this. Maybe you could expand a bit more on what the outside world does to influence our impressions of a golf course once we are on it.

My first instinct/disagreement is that the courses I really love seem set apart from the surrounding world. Not so much an isolation, but a world unto itself...even Merion which requires a few road crossings...

[Mike Sweeney]

The one thing that New Jersey is missing is a great ocean course. Brigantine and Spring Lake are both set back from the beach by a few blocks, Hollywood and Deal about a mile or so, and Atlantic City CC is way back on the bay. I am always surprised that none of the Philly crowd bought land on Long Beach Island or Avalon/Stone Harbor, which have some nice dunes, and built a Maidstone type of place before those areas got populated.

Sully is correct. You can build an average course on a great piece of land, see Hampton Hills in the Pine Barrens of Long Island.

[Peter Pallotta]

JES -

The idea comes from my fondness for courses that look and feel natural. Sometimes when I get to a golf course I haven't played before, I get a feeling that somehow it isn't quite right. The architect may have done a reasonable or even a good job of keeping things looking simple and natural, tying in his fairway shaping with the natural contours of the land/site for example, or using sand sparingly in a locale/site where sand isn't naturally occuring.  But if for miles around -- as I drive there -- I see or sense a certain kind of terrain and topography and 'feeling' of the land, I think the course better match that very closely; otherwise, I think much of the architect's hard and good work will be in vain (for my tastes that is).

For example, if I've driven past ten miles of fairly flat terrain, I don't think it matters how well an architect shapes the contours of his fairways and grens or how natural the undulations look -- my eye will still sense something amiss because it's not what the 'larger context' is about at all.  I just noticed the other day that this is definitely not an issue that Pine Valley has

Peter

[Adam Clayman]

Peter, The seamless fitting of a great course to it's surrounds turns out to be quite the luxury. What's odd is, So are those with a juxtaposition to it.
It's the courses that fail to utilize, and balance, either, or both of these, that helps create the divide between good and great. My guess is you will have zero problem in recognizing either.

[RJ_Daley]

But it reminded of something I tossed out a while back, i.e. that what the eye sees for miles and miles around before getting to the golf course might have an impact on how we judge or feel about the architecture and the course.

Peter, I truly hope you get the chance to make the drive from North Platte to Mullen sometime.... 

[Jim Nugent]

Peter, any examples of courses that do NOT fit their surrounds?  Any famous/highly praised ones? 

[RJ_Daley]

A couple that do not fit surrounds, off the top of my head... Shadow Creek, Whistling Straits&Irish Course.

[Jim Nugent]

RJ, maybe Bayonne, too.  Rawls? 

Do any desert courses really fit their environs?  Though that is a bit different from the question Peter is asking. 

[wsmorrison]

The idea comes from my fondness for courses that look and feel natural.

Peter,

You need to see and study more of Flynn's work.  I think I know exactly how you feel and that's why Flynn resonates so well with me.  Next time you are driving south, keep going until you get to Philadelphia.  Then you simply must call Tom Paul and I for the grand tour.

[JESII]

Peter,

I don't think anyone on planet earth would think Pine Valley "fits in with the larger context of its surrounding terrain". That is a relatively flat part of the state, and the visuals you get on #2 tee, #4 tee and approach, #5 tee, #6 tee, #13 tee, #14 tee, #15 tee and #18 tee. these holes seem to fit the terrain of North Jersey pretty well, but do have the soil of South Jersey...

Shinnecock has much of the same dynamic.

Huntingdon Valley certainly feels isolated from the world, but the terrain isn't really any different.

 

[Peter Pallotta]

Wayne - thank you. Believe me, I was wishing on the whole drive down that I could've taken the opportunity to meet you and Tom.

JES - thanks. I'll take you at your word. I only know PV from pictures and reading, and from that it 'feels' a lot like what I felt on the drive through New Jersey.

Maybe as Adam says, it's more rare than I think (re: RJ's reference to Sand Hills) I know on the courses I play when they don't 'get it right', but I have experienced the difference when -- to my eye at least -- they do.

Peter   

[JESII]

Peter,

I think the Pine Valley you see on the ground would fit in with the terrain of North Jersey...but it's a couple of hours away...I think that helps explain why it would have jumped out at someone on a passing train.

Hidden Creek matches the surounding terrain really well and is a really good course.

[Adam Clayman]

Sully, I'm not sure the entire regional surrounds need to be incorporated into a great design. In cases like the Rawls course, Tom was thinking about the cap rock country when he built features there. In the case of Ballyneal, the "pocket" of chop dunes is just that, a small 20 square mile section of terrain that does not resemble the majority of the surrounding region.  I don't meant to pick on Tom only, but his are the easiest to pick out, since few, save for some ODG's, even attempt to incorporate or "fit" their features into the site specific character of the land. I know that's an unfair blanket generalization, but I have no other way to get under the skin of some site specific posters.

One visualization that I read into Peter's initial post was sand. I only mention it because no one else has (unless I missed it?)

[JESII]

Adam,

Note my initial reaction best explained in my third post. I think I disagree with the overall premise of great courses blending in with the macro-surrounds...

Is there much sand in North Jersey?

[Joel_Stewart]

south towards New York City.

South towards NYC?   I'm not clear on where you are talking about?   Pine Valley is about 1 1/2 hours from there and the landscape and vegatation are very different than Northern Jersey.

[Peter Pallotta]

Joel -

I crossed into New Jersey at Stroudsburg, Pennsylvania and drove down until I got to the foot of the George Washington Bridge. 

Peter

[Mike Sweeney]

Joel -

I crossed into New Jersey at Stroudsburg, Pennsylvania and drove down until I got to the foot of the George Washington Bridge. 

Peter

Peter,

I actually was thinking your saw the Pine Barrens, and Pine Valley is on the edge of that. From the Poconos to GWB is actually pretty ordinary terrain around here, IMO.

[Peter Pallotta]

Mike - I'd been to New York a dozen times, but never drove that route before. Maybe it was looking a everything from the highway at 70 mphs, but the whole stretch 'felt' to me like the pictures of PV. But like I said to JES - I'll take your word for it.

Peter

[Steve Lapper]

Peter:

If you drove (NE) on US 80 from Stroudsberg to the GWB, you traveled through rolling hills, mostly amid and at the foot of the low-level sub-Poconos better known as the New Jersey Highlands. There is lots of old igneous rock and pitted lakes dotting that terrain and it is night and day different from that micro-area (at least for elevation differential) of the lower scrub Pinelands that is the home of Pine Valley. Two totally different terrains, with vastly different terrains, soils and flora & fauna. The Highlands provides most of the fresh water for the state and the Pinelands are shallow scrub lands that while generally flat, have undeniably great sandy loams that yield us a Pine Valley.

Sweens:

      Tsk.tsk..you should know better, Pine Barrens isn't anywhere near the Highlands or 80!!

[Mike Sweeney]

Sweens:

      Tsk.tsk..you should know better, Pine Barrens isn't anywhere near the Highlands or 80!!

Like many things on Gca, we are saying the same thing, just differently.

[Peter Pallotta]

Steve, all the time I thought I was driving south I was actually driving north east?
Wow
Too tired, too many cigarettes, not enough coffee I guess...

Peter

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