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DMoriarty

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Quote
If he was involved before 1911, then the rest of his 1916 essay makes no sense.

David, to what are you referring specifically?  The help from CBM, trip to NGLA etc?

-When describing their qualifications for the Committee, Wilson notes that they had golfed for a long time but that his committee as knowing nothing more than the average Club member when appointed.
-Wilson wrote that M&W gave them a good start in planning.
-Wilson wrote that they absorbed more ideas on golf course construction than in all the years they played
-Wilson wrote that ever good course he saw LATER overseas confirmed M&W's teachings
-Wilson offered a general history of both courses, from before the time the course was purchased but mentions nothing about being involved before 1911.

Taking the essay in its entirety, Wilson created the strong impression that he first became involved in 1911 when his committee was appointed, and when he became involved all of it was new to him.  He specifically referenced his trip as having occurred LATER after the NGLA trip.

So if he traveled earlier and studied golf courses (and I have no reason to believe he did) then it did not make much of an impression on him.
Golf history can be quite interesting if you just let your favorite legends go and allow the truth to take you where it will.
--Tom MacWood (1958-2012)

Mike_Cirba

Patrick

Why would Wilson need to be at macdonald's visit if griscom lloyd and lesley were there?

We know what was discussed and it was simple general suitability of the land and macdobald was noncommittal.

Mike_Cirba

And as usual, Peter Palotta is spot on.

We,re regurgitating here along with political posturing to no beneficial purpose.

Until someone comes with new evidence we are spinning.wheels and entrenching ourselves.

TEPaul

Mike:

We're working...we're working. You and everyone else should just take a nice rest for a few days. Or take a nap for about a week-------here, take this ((______)), it's a communal pillow. All of you just lie down, hold hands, and take a nice long rest and we'll wake you all up in a while when everyone's all refreshed! ;)

As for serious researcher and essayist, David Moriarty, he should lie down and take a rest too but before he does he should respond seriously and completely to the last sentence in capitals in post #163 in the "Importance of Understanding the Richard Francis land swap" thread.
« Last Edit: May 20, 2008, 02:30:32 PM by TEPaul »

DMoriarty

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David, in your case you seem to be arguing from absence in two different (and opposite) ways, i.e. when you can't find a record of Wilson travelling, it proves to you he didn't go; but when you can't find a record of M&W routing/designing the course, it proves to you that the record is wrong. How in goodness is anyone suppossed to work with that, or move towards greater clarity and understanding through that approach?

Peter, I wrote no such thing.  How could I say the new additions to the record proved or disproved anything before I have seen new source material?   It exists, but I am being curtained off from the source material.   Based on how it has been represented so far, I believe there is indication that Macdonald was involved in the planning in 1910, but I doubt that information will ever be released.

Also Peter, Sean asked me what I thought and I told him.  I also told him I was speculating.    You have some nerve to single me out for honestly and openly speculating with all the speculative garbage that has been thrown around on this thread as if it were fact.

As for Wilson traveling earlier.  The entire notion at this point is an absolute joke.   There is absolutely no reason to think that he might have taken two study trips and traveled before 1911.   And there are plenty of reasons to think that he didn't.  Yet I am not treating the historical record unfairly on this issue, too?   Hogwash.
« Last Edit: May 20, 2008, 03:07:06 PM by DMoriarty »
Golf history can be quite interesting if you just let your favorite legends go and allow the truth to take you where it will.
--Tom MacWood (1958-2012)

DMoriarty

  • Karma: +0/-0
Peter is right about one thing, this thread has run its course more than once.    I tried to honestly answer your questions where I could, but at this point I cannot even do that without having my words mischaracterized and my methods slammed.   

I have also tried to counter some of the tidal wave of misinformation that has been thrown out, but that is pointless as the waves of misinformation and unsupported conclusions never stop.

I apologize to everyone for my role in keeping this circus going.  It was not my intention.   While my paper still speaks for itself, I will soon update it to consider the little information released so far. 

If anyone has any legitimate questions, concerns, or suggestions about my work, please send me an IM and I will try and address them. 

Thanks.
« Last Edit: May 20, 2008, 03:07:44 PM by DMoriarty »
Golf history can be quite interesting if you just let your favorite legends go and allow the truth to take you where it will.
--Tom MacWood (1958-2012)

Peter Pallotta

David -

You're right - on your post to Sean that I read and that you reference you made it clear that you were speculating. I apologize for not making that clear in my own post. (My pen ran away with me; the main point of my post was something else entirely). If I singled you out it was because a couple of lines you wrote and that were freshest on mind seemed to encapsulate for me why the thread was so hard to follow. (And please understand - a big part of this whole thread for me and perhaps others is trying to figure out exactly WHAT is speculation and what isn't). The lines were: 

"My guess is that M&W gave them some idea of the holes and their placement in 1910, and I have seen nothing to indicate otherwise.." and "I have never read a historical account (other than Hugh Wilson's essay and Alan Wilson's incomplete mention) that accurately portrayed M&W's role at the NGLA meeting." 

The "I've seen nothing to indicate otherwise" and "I have never read" is what I was referring to when I mentioned the argument from absence.

If I'm being unfair to you I apologize -- but the implication in those sentences that the "facts" are out there but simply not being made available just struck me as not very helpful at all.

Peter
« Last Edit: May 23, 2008, 09:08:52 AM by Peter Pallotta »

TEPaul

"If anyone has any legitimate questions, concerns, or suggestions about my work, please send me an IM and I will try and address them.


David:

Yes, I have a very legitimate question and concern about your work. I expressed it in post #802 in this thread which references post #163 in the thread "The Importance of Understanding the Francis land swap story" thread. It would be great if you could deal with that concern of mine with your work most seriously and intelligently. Not only is it a concern of mine but I'm quite certain it may be a concern of many people who've read your essay.

It's probably most appropriate if I mention it to you on the discussion group here because you've already asked me to never try to get in touch with you in any other way including the IM of this website. ;) I was pretty good at Indian smoke signals when I was a kid but I'm afraid I've forgotten that now and it probably wouldn't work that well between Philadelphia and California anyway, particularly if it's windy between the East and West coasts. 

However, I guess I've noticed you have avoided dealing with it thus far but maybe you just missed it again because you've been deluged with so many questions and concerns of people, so I'm reminding you about it. But perhaps you may not want to attempt to answer that concern about your work and if you don't believe me, I'm sure most anyone can understand why!

Thanks, much appreciated

PS:
I also have a question for you about your feelings about access to any club's material but maybe that's something you'd rather not have discussed on here.

« Last Edit: May 20, 2008, 08:23:52 PM by TEPaul »

Mike_Cirba

Quote
Why put Wilson on the committee at all, much less at its head if he knew so little. Particularly with Fred Pickering onsite...a man who had built quite a few highly regarded courses at the time.?
Mike, OK, I know I am getting a little jab here.  But I have known you (virtually) long enough to know that you must wonder the same thing. And other than your best guesses last week (which were reasonably possible), there really has been no comment or documentation on why it was Wilson. If it has been Travis or Pickering or Colt, we would not really need to wonder, but Wilson?

Andy,

No, actually, that wasn't a jab at all.   It was/is a very serious question that I think bears some serious scrutiny and I believe your questions have been very good, as well.

The Macdonaldistas would have us believe that the world of golf course building in 1909/1910 when Merion was wrestling with these issues was not so very much different than today, and that there were already numerous established, renowned, successful architects, and chief among them in renown was one Charles B. Macdonald.   All a club had to do was hire the right guy, and presto, poof...instant fame and golfing glory! 

This viewpoint is indicative of a sort of intellectual laziness, and really symptomatic of perhaps missing the forest by looking at every cell of bark of a tree and still not understanding what it's made of.

If pressed, Shivas will tell you flat out that he doesn't know much about early architectural history, Patrick admits he doesn't have time for it, and David has been so focused (in my opinion) in trying to come up with something revolutionary elevating M&W's role that I'm betting his research has lots of singular depth, but little breadth or historical perspective.

In any case, none of that really matters.   Some oodles of posts ago, I asked David to name all of the great courses and architects who existed in America at the time Merion was faced with this decision.

I asked how many great courses any of the architects had built...Travis...Tillinghast...Macdonald...Emmett...Ross...by 1909/1910.

I asked how all of those men were viewed by their contemporaries at the time...as architects or as fellow competitors and amateur sportsmen.

David completely ignored those questions, citing something about unfounded speculation, but I'm also certain it's because he couldn't answer in a way that would support his essay.

At this time, Walter Travis was not a practicing architect, despite some work on Ekwanok in 1899 with John Duncan Dunn.   

Tillinghast was just finishing his first course, Shawnee.

Dev Emmett did Island Golf Links in the late 1890s, later named Garden City, but had since taken up with Macdonald in developing NGLA.

Ross...had done some minor work in Massachusetts and was starting to develop his own private Idaho called Pinehurst.

The most prominent architects were the professional ones...Bendelow...Dunn, Findlay, Mungo Park, but their work was marked by quantity and hardly quality.

After spending the first 20 years of American golf beholden to the idea that one needed a Scottish or British professional at the club who would magically have some inherent idea of how to build a great course had proved less than ideal, and the advent of the new Haskell ball had clubs scrambling to capitalize on the increasing popularity of the game, and thus elevate it's playing fields into something respectable and worthy.

So, men like Macdonald, and Fownes, and Crump, and Leeds, and yes...Wilson, became the driving forces for their clubs and threw themselves into the game and its study as no one had ever done prior, and possibly since.

Lots of people knew Macdonald was working on building his "Ideal golf links", as he was a very prominent, very vocal guy who was ubiquitous in tournament golf and rules committees, etc. at the time, and who even his friends admitted was a cantankerous blowhard at times.   He had a spark of genius and stubborn fortitude that allowed him to survive several agronomic failures...much like Crump later, he started building in 1907, and despite constant onsite help from Emmett and Raynor, the course didn't really come to fruition until much later, even though many agreed that his concept of building a template course of great holes was a brilliant idea.

From George Bahto's "The Evangelist of Golf";

"Fully 10 years after the idea of an ideal links first came to its designer and four years after initial construction began, the National Golf Links of America finally opened to membership play in 1910.   There were still adjustments and refinements to come, but those would never cease until Macdonald's death."

"The formal opening of the course was officially celebrated in 1911 with the Macdonald Invitational tournament, one of many played at the National."


So, although the members of Merion were well aware of Charley's work, and his study, and probably his failures, as well, they did not know him as some great golf course architect in 1909/1910.   They knew him as an amateur sportsman who was trying to build his course, much like Crump, and Fownes, and Leeds, and others would do.

Many, many courses looked internally to their top "expert" golfers to help in this regard, or to design outright.    During the research we did on Cobb's Creek, it was an amazing thing to see, but between the years of 1910-1915, a Philadelphia club was seemingly much more likely to look internally for talent than go out and hire an outside (unproven) golf architect.   

For example, a club like Huntingdon Valley, which was known as the most competitive golf club in the region, had Ab Smith, a member who had won the first Philly Amateur in 1897, and then again in 1911, as their archtitect.   North Hills had a fellow by the name of J. Franklin Meehan, who also designed the first nine holes at Lulu.   Aroninimink had a member by the name of AW Tillinghast build their new course, but also in conjunction with fellow members George Klauder and Cecil Calvert.   Whitemarsh Valley had a young fellow with an affinity for roses named George Thomas.   Most of the work to the original Philly Cricket Club which hosted two US Opens was done by member Samuel Heebner.   

A good example of this type of thing was found in a 1911 article in American Golfer by "Hazard" (aka TIllinghast), writing about a new course opening at Moorestown, NJ designed by the members of the Ozone Club, who were prominent Quakers in love with golf who later went on to build Pocono Manor and Buck Hill Falls.   Writing about the new course, Tilly wrote;

"Mr. Samuel L. Allen who has really been at the head of the work on the new course at Moorestown, has long been a very close student of the many courses which are famous both in America and abroad.   He has introduced many pleasing features in the arrangement of the nine holes."

The article produced earlier also shows that the whole idea of going overseas to study golf courses had become a trendy thing to do between 1906 to 1910.   Wilson wasn't alone in that regard, by any stretch, and it was indeed based on Macdonald's example.

However, to stretch the point to say that Macdonald somehow designed Merion, or to suggest that he was viewed as a golf course architect available for hire in 1910 just isn't a historically accurate reflection of the times.

Which comes around to my point.   Fred Pickering had "built" quite a number of courses prior, some like "Woodlands" quite well-regarded, for architects like Findlay.   He was a guy who knew his grasses and earthmoving.

If Merion had only wanted to find someone to build Macdonald's hypothetical design...

it would have been absolutely ludicrous for them to appoint a committee at all, given Pickering's vast experience. 

Willie_Dow

  • Karma: +0/-0
Finally - it's coming to an ending !
« Last Edit: May 21, 2008, 05:34:31 AM by Willie_Dow »

Mike_Cirba

Similarly, the whole idea that the Merion course that opened in 1912 was perfectly great out of the box is similarly inaccurate.

By 1924, almost half of the course...7 holes...had been wholly or partially rerouted and many other holes were completely revised in terms of bunkering configurations.

As Tillinghast mentioned...when it opened in the fall of 1912 it was still very much a work in progress, with many of the holes "being but rough drafts of the problems conceived by Hugh Wilson and committee".  

David's essay begins with various quotes praising the routing of the Merion we know today to suggest that such a routing could not have been created by amateurs like Wilson.   However, on a property that was a medium length par four wide at it's widest point, there was truly not much in the way of choices in terms of the general orientation of the holes.   This would have been obvious to the most inexperienced of neophytes, but even then there were enough flaws (three holes in a row crossing a public road) that it was significantly changed during Wilson's lifetime, with much assistance from William Flynn and Joe Valentine.

Joe Bausch

  • Karma: +0/-0
Mike !  Please write a book !  It might come out before Paul & Morrison.

I've been following these threads for months and this response might be the one to bring the biggest smile to my face.  Well done Bill!  :)
@jwbausch (for new photo albums)
The site for the Cobb's Creek project:  https://cobbscreek.org/
Nearly all Delaware Valley golf courses in photo albums: Bausch Collection

Patrick_Mucci


Why would Wilson need to be at macdonald's visit if griscom lloyd and lesley were there?

Because they weren't "laying out" or building the golf course.

If Wilson was the critical linch pin as you insist, he would have had to have been there.
[/color]

We know what was discussed and it was simple general suitability of the land and macdobald was noncommittal.

You DON'T know what was discussed.

You only know of the contents of an abbreviated letter subsequent to the meeting
[/color]


Mike_Cirba

Patrick,

NO ONE was laying out the course in June 1910 when Macdonald visited.

NO ONE had routed or planned or designed a course at that time, sans the aborted Barker routing.

They were trying to determine whether the land was suitable for golf, and Macdonald definitely held his opinions close to the vest, and a more guarded assessment I've never seen.   It fell far short of what any prudent man would call an endorsement.

There is no reason at all for Hugh Wilson to have been there for that purpose.   They already had quite an experienced committee charged with finding a site.

Patrick_Mucci

Patrick,

NO ONE was laying out the course in June 1910 when Macdonald visited.

NO ONE had routed or planned or designed a course at that time, sans the aborted Barker routing.

They were trying to determine whether the land was suitable for golf, and Macdonald definitely held his opinions close to the vest, and a more guarded assessment I've never seen.   It fell far short of what any prudent man would call an endorsement.

There is no reason at all for Hugh Wilson to have been there for that purpose.   They already had quite an experienced committee charged with finding a site.

Mike,

I believe that you will come to learn that your conclusions, in all four paragraphs above, are incorrect.

Mike_Cirba

Patrick,

Bring it on.   If there's more evidence out there to prove the case for a greater involvement of M&W in the original Merion course, then let's see it.   

On the other hand, I'm willing to be you a left-handed 60-degree sand wedge that you'll be recanting that statement.   
;D

Patrick_Mucci

Mike,

I think you'll come to find that my statement is accurate.

You'll just have to wait for the revelations to be presented, which won't be from me.

Mike_Cirba

Mike,

I think you'll come to find that my statement is accurate.

You'll just have to wait for the revelations to be presented, which won't be from me.

Patrick,

Revelations??

I thought everything was on the table??   We were assured time and again that everything had been presented here upfront in a fair and full presentation of FACTS and that any claim of evidence witholding for less than noble purposes should be utterly cryit down as being nothing but unfair, unfounded personal attacks??   Oh...how those utterly naive and sincere innocents have been so horribly, horribly wronged!   My Lord...the HUMANITY!!!  :o ::) ;D

Oh well...it's not like my fundamental belief in the goodness of human nature hasn't been shaken before!  

;)

These guys just have to stop cleaning their attics at 2:00am and finding these revelations!   Next they'll be coming across the Raynor routing of Cypress Point, and Macdonald's routing of Pinehurst (as told through Travis)!   I'm also thinking that it was Charles Banks who whispered the magic word in Joe Burbeck's ear, "Bethpage".   

The search for the TRUTH truly knows no bounds.   

« Last Edit: May 22, 2008, 10:41:48 AM by MikeCirba »

Patrick_Mucci

Mike,

Neither DM or TM are involved.

Let's leave it at that.


Mike_Cirba

Patrick,

This is shameful and I'm pretty disgusted and ashamed to find myself involved in this nonsense at any level.

The sad part is that the vengeful purveyors of this shit are going to get exactly what they wanted from the start...the demise of this website as anything but a joke to the rest of the golf world.

And you know exactly what I mean by that.




TEPaul

"Tom, why do you believe that with so many wealthy, high-powered members desiring a top golf course they went with someone who by his own admission didn't know much about the task? It seems such an oddity to me.   ;D"


Andy:

Like Miike Cirba said, this is not a dumb question at all on your part.

Actually, if we all could some day get past all this "noise" and contentiousness and accusations and personalizing that always seems to surround these Merion/Macdonald threads when David Moriarty is part of the discussion, that question of yours, at the end of the day, just might be the ultimate question of all!

Why did they pick Hugh I. Wilson indeed and who really was he and what was he capable of?

I can tell you one thing that's pretty certain, Andy, and that is men of the types of those ones who really were rich and powerful and highly effective people in all kinds of ways, just did not and do not pick somebody to do something like that for them who THEY CONSIDER to be some nobody, some novice who might struggle for some years on a learning curve to even figure out the principles and ramifications of what they asked him to do. Wilson's own record on all that he accomplished in the next fourteen years of his "short road" life from the beginning of Merion East to his early demise at 45 is a testimonial to that in spades!

And I'll tell you another thing, I doubt anyone alive today understands what Hugh Wilson was like, and what kind of man he really was like Wayne Morrison and I. That can happen when you take the time to read and to really consider about 1,000 letters from a man like that and about 150 from a man like his older brother, Alan. After all that, to both of us, we feel in some real way we came to know him and certainly what he was like and capable of. Obviously, for us, that really did transpose into understanding why MCC chose him and not someone else, and also why, what we all know ended up happening with him in what eventually became the great Merion East---and American golf agronomy and his substantial part in that!

« Last Edit: May 22, 2008, 07:03:09 AM by TEPaul »

TEPaul

David Moriarty:

What is that quote you have on the bottom of your posts recently? Is that some sort of "Theory of Contrary Opinion" type of California attempt to make friends and influence people in Philadelphia and at Merion G.C? ;)

Andy Hughes

  • Karma: +0/-0
Mike, thanks for your reply. You alluded to something very similar earlier, and I wasn't sure it fully worked for me. I had it in my head that there were people who were considered 'good' at it if not 'expert'.  I frankly do not know that era well enough to argue--had Travis not redone GCGC already at this point after Ekwanok? Not that it matters much, your list of Philly courses who had done much the same thing is compelling to me. It does appear to have been common and accepted practice at the time. I appreciate you taking the time to explain that in depth. Very interesting.


Quote
...who were prominent Quakers in love with golf who later went on to build Pocono Manor and Buck Hill Falls.
Did you throw that in just to give me a touch of nostalgia?   ;)

Quote
Tillinghast was just finishing his first course, Shawnee.
More nostalgia--did I ever tell you I won leagues there many moons ago, in the snow?  ;D (ok, bragging officially over now)
"Perhaps I'm incorrect..."--P. Mucci 6/7/2007

TEPaul

Andy:

I'm not sure what you are driving at but it seems to me when some of the men from MCC went to Macdonald in 1910 to help with at Ardmore they were probably the first ones who ever approached Macdonald to do anything for them after NGLA, and if you think about it that really would have some pretty interesting significance. At least I'm not aware of any other group that approached him after NGLA earlier than that!

Andy Hughes

  • Karma: +0/-0
Quote
men of the types of those ones who really were rich and powerful and highly effective people in all kinds of ways, just did not and do not pick somebody to do something like that for them who THEY CONSIDER to be some nobody, some novice who might struggle for some years on a learning curve to even figure out the principles and ramifications of what they asked him to do.

Tom, isn't it fair to say, though, that at the start he was a bit of a novice, and that he did indeed have a steep learning curve through the years? (note--I am not using novice as an insult)


Quote
Obviously, for us, that really did transpose into understanding why MCC chose him and not someone else, and also why, what we all know ended up happening with him in what eventually became the great Merion East---and American golf agronomy and his substantial part in that!

And you believe they chose him because they saw talent and ability in him, or because they believed he was not a novice and actually knew what he was doing, or both, or neither?

Quote
That someone like this David Moriarty could actually take the words of Hugh Wilson when he said if he understood how little he knew when he got into it....., and use that as some point and premise to call him and label him such a novice as to infer that Wilson was incapable of doing what we now know he did do without relying more on a Macdonald

Tom, I sometimes think that unfortunately you and David talk around each other rather than to each other.  I think David would agree that Wilson ended up being capable of creating a quality course, just as you do.   I suspect he would also say (and I suspect you might agree?) that the initial iteration of Merion was not a masterpeice and does not suggest that at that moment Wilson should be considered an outstanding gca. Or perhaps you don't agree.

Quote
But my point is, and the reason I think your question is a good one is because it just proves most of us just don't understand who he really was and most of all seemingly have no feel at all for who he was and what he was capable of and why these men of MCC chose him to do what they asked him to take on.

Well, I think that is certainly true Tom.  I have not jumped into the deep end with you and Wayne and David and Mike, but I have no good sense of who Wilson was nor what he was capable of.  I do believe Mike explained well earlier today why Merion might have chosen Wilson though.
"Perhaps I'm incorrect..."--P. Mucci 6/7/2007