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Jeff_Brauer

  • Karma: +0/-0
JeffB:

I agree with a lot of your sentiments and intuitions in that post, except the part about Merion worrying about 'the all poweful railroads'.

I can absolutely guarantee you and prove it that the railroads, certainly including the great Pennslyvania railroad and the P&W next to Merion definitely DID NOT screw around with and try to hold up a guy like Horatio Gates Lloyd who was the managing partner of Drexel & Co, who was one of the biggest financiers of the American railroads unless the heads of those two railroads suddenly didn't give a damn where the money was coming from to run their railroads.

TePaul,

I have an interest in railroad history, I have worked with railroads in trying to get easements.  My comments come from knowing that railroad beauracricies (sp) move with all the speed of a glacier and generally say "no" to anything new or quick deals.

That said, my father worked for Campbell Soup and the Dorrance family that owned the company were also on the BOD of the Penna. I recall him saying that they routinely shipped from their Camden, NJ plant via the Pennsy for that reason, despite shorter routes and/or better rates on other roads because of that connection.  That is the kind of "insider" dealing that you are alluding to, and it did happen and could have happened at Merion.  While selling a little 3 acre tract would not normally attract attention of the highest execs in the rr, it could very well have, given where the request was coming from.

That said, it might have still been best for the rr, presumably a public company, to not have such things widely known, even if someone getting a hold of a private letter to a club in those days would have been highly unlikely.  
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

Mike_Cirba

Patrick,

I know Wayne will be busy for the next several days.   Based on our discussion yesterday after he found it, my understanding is that it's signed and original.

Shiv,

We still don't know for certain if Hugh Wilson went to Europe prior, but we now knew he did go in the spring of 1912.   We also now know that various members of the Committee went there repeatedly prior and we also know that Merion President Robert W. Lesley (who was also head of the Golf Association of Philadelphia) seemed to spend as much time in Europe as he did in the states.  

I agree that one of the benefits of David's findings is changing our whole understanding of when he may have gone overseas, for how long, and for what purpose.   I think we also now know that what Hugh WIlson wrote in 1916 about the Committee's needing M&W advice for Agronomic and Construction expertise he was being very specific and very accurate, as the letter from the Site Committee confirms exactly why and where M&W were bringing value to the table.  

Mike_Cirba

Pat, a conformed signature would certainly indicate postal telegraph delivery.

Conversely, if it was an actual letter, signed by him, it almost certainly was sent by the US Railway Mail System, which was running quite smoothly at the time.

There is no doubt at all that a letter got from NYC to Philadelphia in two days.  This is another of Mike's blue-sky non-refutal refutals...

Shivas,

Even if we accept the miracle that Macdonald typed and dated the letter, got it to the post office, where it was immediately picked up and sent to Philadelphia, where it was then routed out to the suburbs, where it was then delivered by a postman, where it was then immediately seized and opened by Lloyd, who just happened to be sitting on his porch with the rest of the Site COmmittee, who then all opened it, studied it, and then went inside to write a letter to the Membership in less than 48 hours...

Even if we suspend disbelief even further here, where we are already now into the land of Pinocchio and Jiminy Cricket and not enough abrupt mounds happening naturally on a tract of land for a suitable golf course...   :D

M&W didn't recommend that they buy the property.

In fact, their letter hedged their bets, big time, and said they should take some soil samples and send it out, and gee guys...we don't even know if you could get a 6000 yard course on that cramped piece of property intersected by a public road.    Ummm...maybe you should talk to Baltusrol about growing grass out there, as well..ummmm....but we sure did have a nice time in Philly!

Thanks a lot...see you in seven months when you come to visit me at NGLA in January in the dead of winter...have at it, chaps!  ;)

But, yet you're still trying to convince us that as a result of their letter the Merion Site Committee recommended to their membership to buy this new, unproven, untested property?

Horatio Gates Lloyd is the secret to this riddle, grasshopper.

Think!  ;D

« Last Edit: May 10, 2008, 11:31:32 AM by MichaelPaulCirba »

Patrick_Mucci

Mike,

It wasn't delivered to the suburbs.

Why do you continue to make up stories to conceal or misrepresent the facts ?

It was delivered to Lloyd's office in Philadelphia, where it was addressed, in the city in which most or all of these fellows worked.

Why do you assume that all the meetings took place in the clubhouse ?

On what date did the Merion clubhouse become functional ?


Mike_Cirba

Mike,

It wasn't delivered to the suburbs.

Why do you continue to make up stories to conceal or misrepresent the facts ?

It was delivered to Lloyd's office in Philadelphia, where it was addressed, in the city in which most or all of these fellows worked.

Why do you assume that all the meetings took place in the clubhouse ?

On what date did the Merion clubhouse become functional ?



You're right, Patrick.

That one is even better!   ;D

It arrives at his office where his trusty secretary, suddenly swooning from the aromatic, immediately recongizable scent of the Bents of Le Touquet that Charles brushed against all his letters, dives into the mailroom, snatches the letter, tears it open, and seeing it is from the great man himself, suddenly takes feint, but before hitting the floor, yells out,

"H.G. SIR...IT's heeerrreeeeeeee............" and lands with a thud.

Lloyd, recognizing his moment of destiny, quickly reads its contents and feeling a bit light-headed himself, sends everyone home so he can have some privacty to think and quickly determines what he needed to do.

Being a man of action, he quickly called a cab, and en route, picked up his cell phone and called all the other members of the committee to leave their day jobs scattered throughout the city and suburbs, and take their helicopters out to meet him at the club, where they would go through the near biblical words pronounced by Macdonald, and decide whether or not they should invest fortunes into this new property.

Working together on a single draft in Microsoft Word, they quickly formulate their recommendations, and then send a mass email out to the membership, who just happen to all be sitting around watching a debate on the origins of Merion on their home computers, when the great word is suddenly delivered from the mountaintop to their respective home machines, arriving just in the nick of time.




Patrick_Mucci

Mike,

Why is it that when a post directly addresses and answers a question you have, that you attempt to deflect the credibility of the response through absurdity ?

You posed a question regarding how the letter got from NY to Philly in short time.

I answered it.

With regard to your absurd response to the receipt of the letter, I think these wise business men didn't do things sequentially as you and others suggest, but, rather they did things simultaneously.  It's far more efficient.

As an example.

I have a client that's effectively splitting off a division.
This transaction requires court approval.
We've moved to have everything in place such that when the judge executes the order, we'll trigger our previously marshalled efforts and have everything done by day's end.

Why wouldn't Merion embark upon the same methodology ?

Jeff_Brauer

  • Karma: +0/-0
I really don't care, but there is a small chance that CBM dated the letter not when he sent it or wrote it, but to coincide with the meeting he knew was taking place.  When I send letters or proposals to committees, I often do the same.
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

TEPaul

JeffB:

Regarding your post #618, I know what you're saying about the railroads and an interconnection with powerful people and such and how that would almost definitely play out with that small rr land next to Merion G.C.

I hate to and hestitate to mention it on here because I generally just end up getting criticized for it by people like Moriarty or MacWood or whatever but you're talking to me about those people and the railroads I do know what I'm talking about with a lot of this "financing" and railroad history stuff.

My great, great grandfather was A.J. Drexel, the man who created Drexel & Co around the middle of the 19th century and turned it into one of the biggest and most powerful financing companies in the world (he's the same man in the book entitled "A.J.Drexel, The Man Who Made Wall St"). A.J. Drexel was also the man who "made" J.P. Morgan, considered to be the biggest financier in American history. As long as Drexel lived there was only one man in the world Morgan answered to and that was A.J. Drexel.

Around this era (1910) Drexel & Co was every bit as powerful as it had been (these types of finance companies essentially took the place of a US central bank because there was none in America from around 1827 to 1913 (the exact years of J.P. Morgan's life).

Companies like Drexel and then Drexel-Morgan in New York and then later J.P. Morgan & Co. were some of the most powerful underwriters of the entire American railroad system and just about everything else (A.J. Drexel even "made" Jay Cooke who created the underwriting of Government Bonds). The RRs depended on them to raise their money to construct and operate.

My great grandfather, James W. Paul, may've been the last member of the Drexel family to run Drexel & Co. He died in 1909 or something and Horatio Gates Lloyd apparently took his place as that kind of partner of Drexel & Co. The men who ran those RRs did not say no to anything from a man like Lloyd.

Just to show you how interconnected things were or are or can be around here, I see you mentioned Campbell Soup Co and the Dorrance family. Well, James W. Paul built this enormous place for himself maybe in the late 1890s or 1900. It's about five miles from Merion G.C. It was called Woodcrest or Woodmont or something (It's now Cabrini College). When he died around 1909 one of his daughters who was married to a guy called Charles Munn (Mr Palm Beach) moved into it and lived in it until 1925 when they sold it (Frances Munn divorced Munn and married a French WW1 aviator hero and moved to Paris and became a famous spy for the French underground in WW2) to the Dorrances and then became known as the magnificent Dorrance family estate. Before that some of it was sold to make what is now St. Davids G.C.

Jack Dorrance, who ran Campbell Soup for decades, was a friend of mine. He belonged to GMGC.

But the point of telling you all this background history since you mentioned this RR history is to explain that when the railroad owned a small piece of land around the Merion G.C. clubhouse there was no way in hell they would ever dream of holding up Merion and a guy like Horatio Gates Lloyd over it. The fact that the club never even bought that land until a number of years later is just indicative of all that. It was probably just the guy who ran that railroad doing Lloyd and Merion G.C. a favor because people like Lloyd and Drexel & Co were the people they got their money from.

Just watch how Moriarty treats this post. There's no question in my mind he absolutely hates to hear me explain this kind of history that had a direct influence on the history of Merion G.C. He'll probably accuse me of being and elitist next. ;)

henrye

I am thrilled that Merion Cricket Club allowed me access to their files.  It was a very unusual opportunity that will not be made available to others.  There is a close relationship between the Golf and Cricket Clubs and that's how I got access.  Merion Golf is helping Merion Cricket with the development of their archives.  I hope that there isn't a rush for researchers to try and gain access to these private records of private clubs.  It is of course a very sensitive matter to make such club documents available to the public and we should not expect that these materials are disseminated.  The members of this site should respect the private nature of club documents and not expect to have access to them. 

I don't have permission to post anything that I discovered today and I wouldn't want to publish detailed club minutes on this site as it would simply not be appropriate to air additional private club documents here.  I'm not a member (the Cricket and Golf clubs split more than 60 years ago) and I respect their privacy.  Forgive me if the only thing I post is the transcript I made of the Macdonald letter.  I hope the contents of the letter puts to rest most of the issues.  I believe it does.
 

David's research and essay was very interesting and so is this MacDonald letter as it would appear to indicate that there were some flaws in his conclusions/theories.  It strikes me, however, that there is still a substantial amount of uncertainty about early Merion.

Wayne, I don't know you and have no axe to grind in this equation, but why take the position that no one should seek access to Merion's files in an attempt to better understand these uncertainties.  Not sure why they would be so against an interested researcher viewing their documents?

TEPaul

Come on henrye, do you really need to ask a question like that? How dense can people be really? These clubs read these threads too, don't you realize that and people from these clubs discuss them sometimes mostly with bemusement. These clubs know who people like Moriarty and MacWood are on this website. Do you really think these clubs feel like letting people like that into their archives when these people have essentially been criticizing and insulting us and our intentions and by extension a club like Merion around here for about five years? We are the ones they know, we are the ones who've done a lot of their historical research for them, not Moriarty and MacWood and we are the ones they're watching being criticized and insulted with crap like this "Philadelpia Syndrome" bullshit of MacWood's. MacWood started the first thread about this Merion and Macdonald stuff and Moriarty just picked up on it and took it to a new level of speculation. One of MacWood's threads on Merion was created to challenge "legends" and the "status quo". If you think some of these clubs enjoy some of this blatant revisionism, then you don't understand human nature very well. One of Moriarty's friends on here about six years ago decided to call Merion's Buddy Marucci 'the Devil Incarnate' on here. What did he think that was going to do--get Merion to ask for his opinion of their bunker project?

Some of the people on here and their attitude that some of these clubs ought to do anything they want for them is completely nonsensical!

If anyone wants to get someone's attention to give them or help them with something then the very first thing they need to do is learn how to be polite about it and not so arrogant as to virtually demand it as their good right simply because they're interested in golf course architecture.
« Last Edit: May 10, 2008, 01:45:08 PM by TEPaul »

Lou_Duran

  • Karma: +0/-0
"The great irony here is that you were in the exact same position when the ship manifests showed up and DaveM proved the hoax of the 7 month trip prior to designing Merion, ..."

Shivas,

How again did DaveM "prove" the "hoax"?  Because he wrote that he did not find Hugh Wilson's name in those manifests he could locate of some ships which sailed from an European destination to the U.S.?  Okay.  Maybe your standard of proof is a bit relaxed, except that you go on to say:

"Mike, let me be perfectly clear about how I look at things.  I do not consider what somebody writes as factual, other than the fact that they wrote it. 

"When someone writes something, and it's supported by other evidence, then it looks awefully good as being factual.  When that person is credible, that adds to it.  When other credible people say the same thing, that adds to it.  When it all adds up and makes sense, that adds to it.  Pretty soon you have a fact.  And even that fact can be disproven if new evidence comes to light and makes it through the same gauntlet."

This all leaves me scratching my head- I thought that a fact is truth, objective, absolute.  Sounds to me that you are confusing fact with theory, but perhaps well-trained, intellingent lawyers have their own peculiar thought process and set or rules which are well beyond us ordinary lay folks to understand.

By the way, how is Tillie writing that he saw the Merion plans "hearsay" in the legal context? 
     

Mike_Cirba



Allgates


Is that a golf course in the background?

Mike_Cirba

Mike, what's this.  I have to run to dance recital #2 in a bit, but I'm curious as hell.

David,

This is Allgates...HG Lloyd's 76 acre estate built right in the middle of the HDC property, that was originally about 300 acres, 120 of which went for golf, and the remainder for estate homes along Golf House Roard, Ardmore Ave., and most of the internals of the property were Lloyd's estate..

Remember, he served on Wilson's Committee and Lesley's Site Committee.

Who is Mac's letter addressed to?

Horatio Gates Lloyd and his wife, Mary Helen Wingate Lloyd, called their Haverford, Pennsylvania, estate Allgates. Lloyd (1867–1937) held two law degrees from the University of Pennsylvania and worked for the Philadelphia Trust Co., Philadelphia Electric Co., and Bell Telephone. He was also a partner at J. P. Morgan Associates.

I believe the property may have since been subdivided, but someone out there should be able to point it out to us on the aerial.   

I also have a 1924 aerial that's pretty good as far as illustrating where it was, but it's not something online.

http://www.mapquest.com/maps/Ardmore+PA/#a/maps/l:::Ardmore:PA::US:40.006699:-75.285797:city:Montgomery+County/m:hyb:12:39.998541:-75.316498:0::/io:0:::::f:EN:M:/e


Gotta run as well...Cobb's Creek meeting tonight!
« Last Edit: May 10, 2008, 04:24:04 PM by MichaelPaulCirba »

DMoriarty

  • Karma: +0/-0
Mike, what's this.  I have to run to dance recital #2 in a bit, but I'm curious as hell.

David,

This is Allgates...HG Lloyd's 76 acre estate built right in the middle of the HDC property, that was originally about 300 acres, 120 of which went for golf, and the remainder for estate homes along Golf House Roard, Ardmore Ave., and most of the internals of the property were Lloyd's estate..

Mike,

There is more than a little irony in these discussions.  The CBM letter disproves a single inference in my essay, and you guys unequivocally declare its death in the entirety, and demand the conversation stop.

You have at least one unsupportable inference or unproven "fact" in every post you make.   If you applied your standard to your posts , your participation would have ended before you finished a single post!

The 76 Acre "Allgates" property was not built right in the middle of the 300+ Acre HDC land.   It is absolute hogwash for you to even suggest that it was.

As for the inference that you draw from the photo, I suppose it is the same one that TEPaul has drawn repeatedly:  That the Merion East was built earlier than was previously thought.   How you guys think you could infrer this from this photograph is beyond me.    Unless of course it is your contention that:

1.  The course in the background (??) is Merion East. 
2.  Allgates disappeared some time before 1911.

Showing them together proves that they existed at the same time.  It does not prove when either one of them was built. 

By the way, Penn's archives has a long list of plans and blueprints for Allgates, and most of them are dated 1911 or later.   For example, the plans include a "detail drawing" of the front and back of the house, dated 1911, and it appears to be the house in your picture.   Was the architect misdating his plans?  Or is the photo you just another attempt to obfuscate the truth with unsupported conjecture, hyperbole, sarcasm, and ad hominem.

_____________________

Lou Duran,

You have misstated the evidence offered to support my theory about the timing of Wilson's study trip.   

Taking into consideration the actual evidence, including the article Tom MacWood found, are you suggesting that my theories about the timing of the Wilson Study Trip are flawed or unsupported?

If so, based on what?   What is your standard of proof?

Thanks.
« Last Edit: May 10, 2008, 08:02:38 PM by DMoriarty »
Golf history can be quite interesting if you just let your favorite legends go and allow the truth to take you where it will.
--Tom MacWood (1958-2012)

TEPaul

"As for the inference that you draw from the photo, I suppose it is the same one that TEPaul has drawn repeatedly:  That the Merion East was built earlier than was previously thought."

I said the course was built before previously thought???

What does that mean, Moriarty?? ;)

Where did I say that?

Repeat! Where did I say that???

Show it to me!!!    Show it to me Moriarty!  Don't weasel out of this question too! ;)




"For example, the plans include a "detail drawing" of the front and back of the house, dated 1911, and it appears to be the house in your picture.   Was the architect misdating his plans?"

The photo of Allgates above is from 1930.

I believe the golf course in that photo is the bottom of the "L" of Merion East.  And, I don't think "Allgates" was part of that remaining 221 acre HDC land. I think Allgates was just to the west of the HDC 221 acres.
« Last Edit: May 10, 2008, 11:43:29 PM by TEPaul »

Mike_Cirba

David/Tom,

You're exactly correct, and earlier this evening I misspoke when I said it was in the middle of HDC land because I was under sniper fire.  ;)

Actually, the Allgates property was purchased in 1910 by Lloyd, 76 acres just at the western edge of the 220 acres of land he wanted to sell as estate homes as part of HDC, which sat inside the L of the 120 acres of the Merion Golf Club, which he convinced the membership to buy..   He had it architected in 1911, and it opened in 1912, which I'm sure is only coincidental. 


Mike_Cirba

Has anyone yet tried to answer why the Ardmore Land Development Company, purportedly run by Conelly, had Barker out there to develop a routing on June 10th, 1910, and then Macdonald/Whigham came out a few days later, evidently at the request of HG Lloyd, who supposedly had no ownership of the property at that time?

DMoriarty

  • Karma: +0/-0
I am not going to dig through your posts, Tom.  They are far too expansive and I don't have the time.  Especially regarding a non-issue.   Plus, given your penchant for deleting posts, it sounds like a wild goose chase to me.   
___________________

Actually, the Allgates property was purchased in 1910 by Lloyd, 76 acres just at the western edge of the 220 acres of land he wanted to sell as estate homes as part of HDC, which sat inside the L of the 120 acres of the Merion Golf Club, which he convinced the membership to buy..   He had it architected in 1911, and it opened in 1912, which I'm sure is only coincidental. 

So you replace one flat out falsehood with an extreme misleading claim.  Not sure that is progress.

What is your support for implying that Lloyd was in control of the development prior to Nov. 15?  If you have none then quit trying to mislead people.
______________________
Has anyone yet tried to answer why the Ardmore Land Development Company, purportedly run by Conelly, had Barker out there to develop a routing on June 10th, 1910, and then Macdonald/Whigham came out a few days later, evidently at the request of HG Lloyd, who supposedly had no ownership of the property at that time?

There you go again. Just making garbage up to mislead people.  Like I said, every post has at least one outright falsehood or misleading statement.   

M&W came out "a few days later?"  It could have been more than two weeks later.   Wasnt your theory that they happened to be in Philadelphia anyway?   Now it is all part of Lloyd's big scheme?   You just make stuff up and replace your false suppositions with more made up stuff when the first are no longer convenient.

Plus, so what if Lloyd was involved in the negotiations.  He was on the site Committee.   

Come up with some facts, or stop.
Golf history can be quite interesting if you just let your favorite legends go and allow the truth to take you where it will.
--Tom MacWood (1958-2012)

Mike_Cirba

David,

Who is putting words in people's mouths now?   I said it was in the middle of the HDC property, but meant that it fit squarely into the overall land plan, on the top of the hill overlooking the estates, and the golf course.

The timing of the purchase, planning, and opening of Allgates is accurate.

Can you describe for everyone exactly where those 75 acres were located?



Are you suggesting that in the timeframes we're talking about which span years of activity and is almost 100 years ago that my use of "a few days later" is challenged with you saying that it might have been "more than two weeks"?   ::)

David, please calm down.   That's virtually a hysterical statement.
« Last Edit: May 11, 2008, 12:42:38 AM by MichaelPaulCirba »

DMoriarty

  • Karma: +0/-0
David,

Who is putting words in people's mouths now?   I said it was in the middle of the HDC property, but meant that it fit squarely into the overall land plan, on the top of the hill overlooking the estates, and the golf course.

I am an not putting words in your mouth.  It is NOT in the middle of HDC's property.   Surely it is not my fault that your speculation is so tangential and attenuated that you cannot even accurately explain it yourself.   

I dont care your reasons for misleading people.  Just stop doing it.

Quote
Can you describe for everyone exactly where those 75 acres were located?

I can. Exactly.  But I wont.  I am not interested in wasting my time or the time of others.   

Now answer my question, what is your basis for endlessly repeating as a FACT that Lloyd was behind the entire development from the beginning?

Quote
Are you suggesting that in the timeframes we're talking about which span years of activity and is almost 100 years ago that my use of "a few days later" is challenged with you saying that it might have been "more than two weeks"?

Yes I am challenging you, because as usual, you are twisting the facts to try and imply that which was not the case.    And now you pretend that the "few days" wasn't important, which is yet another misrepresentation.

You used "a few days" to imply that Lloyd must have been behind both site visits, and involved in HDC before June 10, 1910.  In fact, without the "few days" misrepresentation, you have no point at all.   A few weeks is  plenty of time for the site Committee to receive HDC's offer, review the sketch, and bring in M&W for a second opinion. 

But since a "few weeks" doesnt work for you, you simply make crap up, claiming it was "a few days" to disingenuously imply that Lloyd was behind both visits.   That is the kind of disingenuous garbage you pull in almost every post.   
Golf history can be quite interesting if you just let your favorite legends go and allow the truth to take you where it will.
--Tom MacWood (1958-2012)

Mike_Cirba

David,

Please...listen to yourself, I implore you.

You tell us that HH Barker visited the site on June 10th, 1910, and submitted a routing that incorporated 100 acres to Mr Connell of the Ardmore Land Company..

We also know that sometime betwen June 10th, 1910, and June 29th, 1910 (when he had returned to NY and found time to write) CB Macdonald and HJ Whigham visited Merion and submitted a very, very, very general letter to HG Lloyd and Merion.

Logic would assume that their visit was around the 20th or so, as the US Open was being played in Philly on those dates.

Yet, you rip me a new one for suggesting that Macdonald came by a few days later??!?   ::)

Why not focus more on what that might have meant, or are you only interested in looking at FACTS when they support your predispositive assumptions?

Why would two supposedly competing companies have architects out to their sites within days of each other??

As far as Allgates, since you don't want to bore or insult our readers with its location I will tell them that the 76 acre estate, fully over 3/5 the size of the ENTIRE Merion golf course, was just to the west and atop the hill of the 200 acres Lloyd bought that he made availalbe for real estate sales as part of the overall deal.

If you make a beeline north from roughly the second green, it won't be long before you are on the Allstates property.   
« Last Edit: May 11, 2008, 01:33:10 AM by MichaelPaulCirba »

DMoriarty

  • Karma: +0/-0
Mike,

The reason your misrepresentation matters is because the passage of time is crucial to latest unsupported inference regarding Lloyd's involvement.   There were nineteen (19) days between the two letters.   That is more than "a few."   You misrepresented the facts to try and make an otherwise unsupportable point.  Naturally.

Don't get me wrong.  I dont care whether or not he was involved, because it doesnt matter to my theory.  But still, you cant just make it up.   You confuse people, and yourself.

 
David,

Please...listen to yourself, I implore you.

You tell us that HH Barker visited the site on June 10th, 1910, and submitted a routing that incorporated 100 acres to Mr Connell of the Ardmore Land Company..

We also know that sometime betwen June 10th, 1910, and June 29th, 1910 (when he had returned to NY and found time to write) CB Macdonald and HJ Whigham visited Merion and submitted a very, very, very general letter to HG Lloyd and Merion.

Quote
Why not focus more on what that might have meant, or are you only interested in looking at FACTS when they support your predispositive assumptions?

I did focus on the facts.  The FACTS are that there were 19 days in between letters.  That was plenty of time for the board to consider Barker's and then bring in M&W. 

It only might have meant something if we bought into your misrepresentation of this fact, which is exactly why you needed to misrepresent the facts in the first place. 

Quote
Why would two supposedly competing companies have architects out to their sites within days of each other??

What are you talking about?   Two competing companies?   Are you delirious?  What two competing companies?

Quote
As far as Allgates, since you don't want to bore or insult our readers with its location I will tell them that the 76 acre estate, fully over 3/5 the size of the ENTIRE Merion golf course, was just to the west and atop the hill of the 200 acres Lloyd bought that he made availalbe for real estate sales as part of the overall deal.

Mike, why post it if you have no idea?
- It was not 76 acres in 1910. The original purchase was 25 acres. 23 acres were added soon after.
- It was was west of the course, but there were large estates between Allgates and the HDC development.
-  You claim Lloyd bought 200 acres.  Surely you are not referring to the HDC purchase are you?   Because HDC and Lloyd were not one and the same. 
-  Overall deal?  You are confusing the Allgates deal with the HDC deal and I am sure that is intentional but it is disingenuous because there is no reason to connect the two.

Mike you constantly draw this inference and by implication you constantly relegate Connell and the other HDC investors into a position of being Lloyd lackeys.  This was not the case.

If you bothered to research at all, you'd know that Connell was a major land developer, and the men and women investing with him were not chumps.   Connell developed land with his brother, George, who was a prominent local politician and eventually became Mayor of Philadelphia.   They may not have been H.G. Lloyd, but they were far from his pawns.

For one example, according to the 1920 RR Atlas, Connell controlled a 60 acre plot that touched a corner on both the West Course and the East Course.   Yet you just pretend that you know that Lloyd was behind it all.

-

If you make a beeline north from roughly the second green, it won't be long before you are on the Allstates property.   

Golf history can be quite interesting if you just let your favorite legends go and allow the truth to take you where it will.
--Tom MacWood (1958-2012)

Jim Nugent

Two more questions:

1.  Suppose Merion sent Macdonald a topo map sometime in 1910, after he visited the site.  Could he have designed the course, given that map and the few days he spent there?  If they sent photos as well, could that help him? 

No one has produced a shred of evidence this happened.  Just curious if CBM could come up with one of the most perfect routings ever in this way.   

2.  When M&W visited Merion in June 1910, is it likely they did some rough routing, at least of a few holes?  Architects, or those who know how they work: if you are asked to evaluate a prospective site, and find it exciting, would you map out in your mind some possible hole layouts?  I would have thought so.  And while I have zero experience in designing or building golf courses, it surprises me a bit that M&W would write Merion that they felt a first-class 18 hole course could fit on such tight grounds, unless they had some idea of what those holes were and where they would go.


Mike_Cirba

Jim Nugent,

There is nothing in the letter to suggest a routing but the vaguest generalities of how you might have interesting possibilities with the quarry and creek.   

Like Sully, I'm beginning to think the routing already may have existed prior to their visit, but no mind.   They framed out a theoretical "ideal 6000 yard course" in their letter, but that again was nothing but theory.   Where they offered specific advice was agronomic.

As far as a routing, wasn't it just math?

If we accept the premise that part of what they looked at was the Dallas Estate, and even if we assume that the top of the 15th/16th had been considered by the Committee at that point, it was still a very narrow, awkward 120 acres with 1) A Quarry, 2) An existing Clubhoure, and 3) a public road intersecting, all which were additional limiting factors.

Macdonald selected over 200 acres at NGLA.   Here, he was being asked by Lloyd if Merion could build a championship course on 120.   I think that's why he suggesed perhaps a sporty little 6000 yard jobber, and he was very polite and trying to be helpful in suggesting it.

TEPaul

"I am not going to dig through your posts, Tom.  They are far too expansive and I don't have the time.  Especially regarding a non-issue.   Plus, given your penchant for deleting posts, it sounds like a wild goose chase to me."


Moriarty:

Nice excuse for the fact that it just doesn't exist. At this point who'd expect anything else from you when you just make something up that someone said and when asked to show it you just use the old transparent excuse: "Oh, I don't have the time to do that."  ;)  ::)  

Of course you don't have time to find it---it doesn't exist! Your entire essay as well as your posts responding to questions about it are a whole litany of you just making things up and then trying to pass them off as fact! When one thinks about it, it really is quite an amazing effort. ;)
« Last Edit: May 11, 2008, 10:15:29 AM by TEPaul »

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