[Mike_Cirba]

David,

Did TePaul really have a euphoric overreaction to TEPaul's unsupportable conjecture?   

Man...I truly didn't know he had that within him.    I'd better stop taking his calls.  





 

[TEPaul]

"David,
Did TePaul really have a euphoric overreaction to TEPaul's unsupportable conjecture?"

That David Moriarty is quite the writer, isn't he, Mike?      

[Patrick_Mucci]

TEPaul & MPC,


My question is what were the qualifications of the committee in 1911?

They were better than average golfers but not among the elite in
Philadelphia, much less America.

Going into the 1913 golf season their handicaps were Wilson-5, Francis-5, Griscom-6, Lloyd-7 and Toumlin-10.
 
To my knowledge none of these men ever represented Philly in the
Lesley Cup

So we are asked to believe that these Merion men with absolutely no
qualifications have no need for the expertise of arguably the two
premier links architects (Barker and Macdonald) in America in 1911?

We are to believe that these novices were so confident in their own
abilities they had no need for outside assistance.

Who would be so arrogant and stupid?

Why engage these experts in the first place?

I thought Wilson admitted after the fact they had no idea what he /
they were doing.

At least they (construction committee) had the wisdom
to hire an experienced construction man in Pickerington.

I guess we are to conclude they needed help on the construction side but no help on the routing and design side.

And the logic behind this theory is...?

[TEPaul]

Patrick:

Since I have to go out and mow the "lower forty" momentarily, let me just take Griscom first.

Rodman Griscom's handicap may've been 6 but back in that day the good players' handicaps were generally quite a lot higher than today (back then the USGA basically related handicaps to a single player---eg the US Amateur champion who was apparently consider to be "scratch"---eg for their handicap system's purposes).

Rodman Griscom won the 1905 Philadelphia Amateur, I'm pretty sure he was almost always a member of the Lesley Cup, his sister was Merion's first national champion. Rodman Griscom's father, Clement Griscom, a big time shipping magnate, supplied the land (from his own estate "Dolobran") on which MCC's first nine holes were built in Haverford. Rodman served on the board of the USGA and was Merion G.C's president when MERION GOLF CLUB came into being as a separate entity from MCC. It actually came into being on Dec. 7, 1941 (the date that FDR said will live in infamy), and Rodman died in 1944, the very same year one of golf architecture's all time expert conceptualizers and analysts was born.

Rodman E. Griscom doesn't seem to me to have been a total novice on thngs to do with golf and architecture but what do I really know? I've only been studying intently Merion's history and the people involved in it for about ten years now.

[Patrick_Mucci]

David and Patrick,

You two sure have a lot to say about my meaningless, irrelevant contributions.   

Patrick,

Here are the responses you posted to my contention that Tillinghast, Findlay, Crump, Lesley, et.al. had played the great courses of GB prior to Merion's construction;


ALL of these guys knew what an Alps and Redan were.   

How do you know that ?

That has already been established.   

No it hasn't.[/color]

If they didn't know from their own overseas visits,

How do you know that they all visited North Berwick and Prestwick ?[/color]

they knew from other locals like Tillinghast and Alex Findlay.

How do you know that ?
Is there any written evidence to support your claim ?[/color]

Some things you just have to accept as reality because I'm not going to go back through the itineraries and writings of these guys.   

That's absolute nonsense.
You can't make statements to support your position, and then when challenged, tell us to take it on faith.

Absent proof that they inspected specific courses, you can't cite that they actually saw those courses and you can't ASSUME that they relayed information regarding those courses to the Construction Committee.   It's strictly, wild conjecture on your part.[/color]

Your responses are needlessly contentious and contribute nothing because you know better that all of them were well-to-do, avid golfers who played regulary and had curious minds.

MPC, do you realize what you're saying.

You've come to a conclusion and are desperately trying to reinforce that conclusion without specific supporting facts.

TEPaul is well to do, and avid golfer who played regularly and has a curious mind.
But, has he played the great courses of the UK prior to 2006 ?

Has he played in Ireland, Scotland ?

Just because well to do people traveled abroad doesn't mean that they studied, or even played the great courses of the UK.  That's sheer conjecture and wishful thinking on your part.

Absent factual evidence, you can't submit, as support for your position, wild guesses and wishful thinking.[/color]

Please see this May 1912 article and read the first few paragraphs.   Lotsa guys were doing this, and no matter how much you try to ignore the main point, the Merion members certainly did not need CB to tell them an Alps from a Redan. 

Mike, this article isn't about lot's of guys, it's about MacDonald, Braid and Hutchinson.

Braid NEVER designed a course in the U.S.  His work was overseas, and Hutchinson NEVER designed a course in the U.S.

Only MacDonald is cited as an American who traveled extensively to study the great courses of the UK.

You should read an article before you post it to support your position, especially when this article heralds MacDonald.[/color]



I'm thinking if I had video of it Patrick, you'd accuse me of tampering with the film.   

Not at all.  This article praises and recognizes MacDonald as the only American to study abroad.[/color]

David/Patrick;

DON'T YOU THINK THAT THESE ARE THE "PRINCIPLES" OF THE GREAT COURSES THAT MACDONALD TAUGHT??!?!?  THIS ARTICLE POINTS THEM RIGHT OUT FOR EVERYONE.

In 1912.

And, according to MacDonald and others.

In one case you cite MacDonald as a recognized expert, yet, in another you cite him as a novice still learning his trade, despite having routed and designed NGLA.

You can't have it both ways.[/color]

Or do you still think he was drawing a routing that no one has ever heard of, no one has ever seen, no one ever claimed, and which are supposedly to a golf course where his template style was IGNORED in favor of a more natural style, purposefully?    

You don't object to anyone ever having seen Wilson's routing of Merion, but, take issue with MacDonald's.

Template style ignored ?  ?  ?

The built and "Alps" and a "Redan" how do you have the nerve to claim they ignored the template style ?  Or, is that just another fact that doesn't support your desire to disclaim CBM's involvement ?[/color]

[TEPaul]

TEPaul is well to do, and avid golfer who played regularly and has a curious mind.
But, has he played the great courses of the UK prior to 2006 ?
Has he played in Ireland, Scotland?"


Patrick:

Is that a rhetorical question or are you expecting an answer to it? By the way, since you typed it in bright red text does that mean you're especially perturbed about something today?

[Patrick_Mucci]

TEPaul,

No, the red print was just used to differentiate my earlier post which MPC quoted.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Patrick/David,

If you have any real proof or even a sniff of evidence pointing to Macdonald/Whigham's routing of Merion, please let's see it.



MPC,

Since it's been alleged that Wilson routed Merion, you'd think that someone could produce his routing over the last 100 years. 

But ..... they haven't.

David only presented his white paper about a month ago, so give him the same 100 years that you gave Wilson.[/color]

[Kirk Gill]

So we are asked to believe that these Merion men with absolutely no
qualifications have no need for the expertise of arguably the two
premier links architects (Barker and Macdonald) in America in 1911?

We are to believe that these novices were so confident in their own
abilities they had no need for outside assistance.

Who would be so arrogant and stupid?

Why engage these experts in the first place?

I thought Wilson admitted after the fact they had no idea what he /
they were doing.

At least they (construction committee) had the wisdom
to hire an experienced construction man in Pickerington.

I guess we are to conclude they needed help on the construction side but no help on the routing and design side.

And the logic behind this theory is...?

Well, it's not as if they had NO use for outside assistance. They brought in both of the premier architects you mentioned. It's clear that they went up to NGLA and obtained more knowledge. They they proceeded to create a course of their own. Not out of arrogance, but after careful consideration of their own expertise and the knowlege they'd been able to obtain. Regardless of how prominent a role M&W played, whether the routing of the course is ultimately theirs, or a collaboration between them and others, or if the Committee routed, designed, and constructed the course themselves, how could you accuse them of arrogance? If the record definitively shows anything, it shows that they sought out the opinions and expertise of others, throughout the process. Am I missing something?

[Patrick_Mucci]

Kirk Gill,

You need to read MPC's post and my post in response to his post more carefully.  You need to "context" my remarks.

I never accused anybody of arrogance.

Have reading comprehension skills fallen to the degree that people read what they want the words to say instead of what the words actually state ?

[Kirk Gill]

Patrick Mucci - forgive me if I am misreading your intent in that sentence. Perhaps I am agreeing with you. If you are saying "Who would be so arrogant and stupid as to create their own course without outside assistance, then I'm saying that they obviously weren't being arrogant and stupid, because they obviously DID seek and receive outside assistance, whether M&W should be given credit for routing the course or not. Or do I need to go back and read all of that stuff AGAIN?   

[Mike_Cirba]

Kirk,

The ironic thing is that by this point, thousands of clubs were that "stupid and arrogant", as they had all built courses by 1910 without the use of Charlie and Whigham.

Men like Herbert Leeds, and Walter Travis, and George Crump and Devereux Emmett and George Thomas and AW Tillinghast and countless others were all that arrogant and stupid, apparently.

In fact, although NGLA was a masterpiece that he worked on for many, many years, in 1910 it was really just starting to take shape.

His earlier effort at Chicago was horrendous.   

He had the benefit of having come from Scotland, but so did countless others who came to these shores, mostly professionals like Willie Park and Willie Dunn.   He had a brilliant idea that he was able to execute wonderfully at NGLA with the tremendous help of Emmett and Raynor, and for intents and purposes, it could very rightfully be argued that Emmett was really the guy there who knew his architecture.

But, in 1910, Macdonald was just learning as well, although he certainly was stupendous at trumpeting his knowledge and his accomplishments in all of the press.

Funny how he never mentioned that Merion routing though...

Perhaps he was trying to follow my mother's wise dictate, which says, "don't brag about yourself..let other people do it for you."

Of course, nobody else mentioned his Merion routing then either, though. 

A rational person might say that it never existed, but hey...what do we know?

[DMoriarty]

Mike,

You seem to be incapable of separating fact from fiction.  Almost everything you attribute to me is a fiction.  I shouldn’t be surprised, because almost everything you claim yourself is also fiction. 

The ironic thing is that by this point, thousands of clubs were that "stupid and arrogant", as they had all built courses by 1910 without the use of Charlie and Whigham.

Thousands?   What percentage of these “thousands” were any good?    What percentage compared to NGLA?   By the looks of these courses, what percentage of their builders had any idea of what they were doing?

In fact, although NGLA was a masterpiece that he worked on for many, many years, in 1910 it was really just starting to take shape.

In fact?   This is no fact.  You just made it up.  According to one article I posted then you described, NGLA had already been around for quite a while by 1910.  They had a tournament of top players there in 1910.  Plus, even before it was built, it Merion was the talk of the golfing world both here and in Europe.   

His earlier effort at Chicago was horrendous.

Really?  Compared to what? 

He had the benefit of having come from Scotland.

He came from Canada. 

But, in 1910, Macdonald was just learning as well.

Compared to?

Of course, nobody else mentioned his Merion routing then either, though.

Except for H.J. Whigham, WHO WAS THERE. 

Did anyone who was involved ever write that Wilson routed the course?.   

Please tell me where I ever said that M&W drew up a routing.

[wsmorrison]

Statement:  But, in 1910, Macdonald was just learning as well.

Reply:  Compared to?

Answer:  Fred Pickering, hired by the Merion Cricket Club to construct the golf course.  Pickering was an accomplished construction man, who also assisted in design work.  At the time Merion was built, Pickering already worked on Wollaston (the course Wm Flynn grew up caddying and playing), Woodland and Belmont in Mass; Lake Placid in NY; and a course in Atlanta, Ga., and according to Alex Findlay, "other courses, too numerous to mention, but this, his latest creation, far surpasses any of his previous achievements.  He has had much his of his own way in the planting of the right seed, and in the general make-up of the course, and to him we owe thanks for one of the prettiest courses in America.”

[Mike_Cirba]

Statement:  But, in 1910, Macdonald was just learning as well.

Reply:  Compared to?

Answer:  Fred Pickering, hired by the Merion Cricket Club to construct the golf course.  Pickering was an accomplished construction man, who also assisted in design work.  At the time Merion was built, Pickering already worked on Wollaston (the course Wm Flynn grew up caddying and playing), Woodland and Belmont in Mass; Lake Placid in NY; and a course in Atlanta, Ga., and according to Alex Findlay, "other courses, too numerous to mention, but this, his latest creation, far surpasses any of his previous achievements.  He has had much his of his own way in the planting of the right seed, and in the general make-up of the course, and to him we owe thanks for one of the prettiest courses in America.”

Wayne,

You're spot on here.   David and Patrick act as if all of these guys were babbling idiots who needed a babysitter to put together a golf course.   Thousands of clubs built golf courses at the time, Merion just took the time and put together the resources and study to do it right.   

David or Patrick....do either of you have any idea how well-regarded Woodland was prior to 1910?

[Jeff_Brauer]

I shouldn't bother to open a hornet's nest again, but if the club sought out CBM for advice on a few occaisions, and hired an experienced construction man in Pickering, it sounds less than arrogant.

But, at the same time, while sounding practical and the right thing to do, doesn't it sort of naturally diminsh Wilson's role?  To hear some people tell it, he single handedly designed and built that course, but it obviously wasn't the case.  Even the invite to his celebratory dinner mentions that he devoted every moment of his "spare time" to the project, which also suggests a large part of the success must go to the man who was there every day as a paid construction foreman - Pickering.  

[Mike_Cirba]

Jeff,

Pickering doesn't get enough credit, in my opinion, but would you want your construction foreman/superintendent to get credit for your designs? 

[Jeff_Brauer]

Not my designs, no!  But I'm saying that an experienced construction foreman could have helped the novices to avoid many, many mistakes.  Or, more generally, (and I hate to piss off TePaul again) that MCC did seek out a lot of advice, which means that Wilson couldn't have been quite as heroic as his brother or a club history nearly 40 years after the fact depicts.

On the other hand, I don't think it diminishes the reputation of the club.  They seem to have went out and found the best people they could and spared no expense.  As mentioned somewhere, at that time a few hundred courses had been built in America and most didn't do those things, and they were horrible.

 I still think they had a lot of input. They may still get the lion's share of the credit.  In a simpler day they would have. But, now, with the interest in architecture, people want to know the real backstory and at least these threads fill some of that in for those who are interested.

[wsmorrison]

Pickering had not been given enough credit.  Until Tom Paul and I found references to him in the Wilson/Piper-Oakley letters, we never heard of the guy.  But if you remove yourself from our 21st century perspective and consider the times, there was quite a social and economic divide between construction foreman and the head of an important committee at Merion in the early 1910s.  Professional golfers were not allowed in clubhouses, architects were rarely mentioned by name in club minutes and it has always been true that bosses get the credit their charges execute.  It is not a coincidence that a professional tournament was not held at Merion until 1934.  It was a club for amateurs and amateur events.  How many touring pros are allowed membership in private clubs even to this day?

Wilson was in charge.  Wilson contributed a great deal of time and effort to this project, along with the other committee members.  Therefore, Wilson gets the majority of the credit as chairman.  Yet Wilson never spoke about what he did, he always characterized the work as a collaborative effort.  Macdonald and Whigham were not ignored in accounts of the development of Merion's East Course.  Their work, though not accurately defined, was most appreciated.  Does anyone think that if Macdonald and Whigham actually planned the golf course that their roles would be ignored in favor of creating local legends?  Hardly.  These were men of honor in social circles that extended well beyond Philadelphia.  It wasn't a backwater town.  Wealthy and powerful men and families of this era from many eastern cities went to the same schools, attended the same parties and vacationed in many of the same spots, together.  If any Philadelphia Syndrome existed, they would surely have been called on it.  Macdonald and Whigham were not celebrated at a dinner in their honor.  Probably because they didn't merit one, not because there was a conspiracy against them.  That lacks common sense and an understanding of the times.

[Mike_Cirba]

Jeff,

I think Wilson gets the credit he deserves because of what he did to the golf course between 1911-1925.   Even the accounts of when the course opened in 1912 state that it was very, very unfinished at this point.

Whether he had Pickering onsite is irrelevant to David's point about the routing, however.  Pickering should get more credit, but not at Wilson's expense.

[Jeff_Brauer]

Mike and Wayne,

I have said as much that Wilson should get most of the credit.  At the same time, its just fascinating to me how the process worked in early American golf vs. today.  Some things are different, some are the same.

I also suspect from Wilson's humble nature that he might very well have had a cordial and respectful relationship with Pickering, even if publicly, that might not have been displayed.  The best courses come when there is a syngery between designer and field guy that way. I doubt that has changed much.

[wsmorrison]

Jeff,

I think it is most evident that Wilson and Flynn had a very close relationship, described by one as a foster father and son.  Wilson was seemingly a kind and generous man with his affections and his position.  Yet, Pickering was prone to excessive drinking and had to be fired.  Yet Wilson gave him another chance with the Sea View project.  Alas, Pickering was even more impaired by drink and was let go a final time.

[Mike_Cirba]

Yes, the last mention I can find of Pickering is that he evidently did good work under Alex Findlay for building the Pittsburgh Field Club course.   

It's a shame he had his demons, because he clearly seemed to be a very talented fellow in the early years of golf course construction.   

[Patrick_Mucci]

Patrick Mucci - forgive me if I am misreading your intent in that sentence. Perhaps I am agreeing with you. If you are saying "Who would be so arrogant and stupid as to create their own course without outside assistance, then I'm saying that they obviously weren't being arrogant and stupid, because they obviously DID seek and receive outside assistance, whether M&W should be given credit for routing the course or not. Or do I need to go back and read all of that stuff AGAIN?   

Kirk,

No, you've got it right.

MPC was implying that the Construction Committee at Merion didn't need outside help because they took their time, studied and knew what they were doing.

An absurd claim by any prudent man standard.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Kirk,

The ironic thing is that by this point, thousands of clubs were that "stupid and arrogant", as they had all built courses by 1910 without the use of Charlie and Whigham.

Thousands of clubs by 1910 ?

I thought that Tom MacWood had quantified the number of clubs in America circa 1909 and that it was well below 1,000 ?

Where did you get this number from ?

Of the thousands of clubs you allege were built by 1910, how many used outside professionals to assist in that endeavor ? 

How many just assembled a collection of members and had them design and build the golf course WITHOUT outside help ?[/color]

Men like Herbert Leeds, and Walter Travis, and George Crump and Devereux Emmett and George Thomas and AW Tillinghast and countless others were all that arrogant and stupid, apparently.

How can you cite professional architects and equate them with a group of members who were total neophtes in the field of GCA ?

Crump had NEVER designed and/or built a golf course by 1910.

Leeds's work seems limited and somewhat undocumented.
The date of his work redesigning Myopia is documented, but, his work elsewhere appears to be confined to 9 hole layouts and two other courses, dates unknown.

Tillinghast had NO course/s under his belt by 1910.

Travis had but ONE course under his belt prior to 1910.

Thomas had but ONE course under his belt prior to 1910.

Emmett had three courses under his belt by 1910

Hardly the thousands you allude to.[/color]

In fact, although NGLA was a masterpiece that he worked on for many, many years, in 1910 it was really just starting to take shape.

Taking shape in 1910 ?
NGLA was being played in 1909
I think you have your facts wrong.[/color]

His earlier effort at Chicago was horrendous.


I asked you before, and you never answered.
Which course ?  And, according to whom ?[/color]   

He had the benefit of having come from Scotland, but so did countless others who came to these shores, mostly professionals like Willie Park and Willie Dunn.   He had a brilliant idea that he was able to execute wonderfully at NGLA with the tremendous help of Emmett and Raynor, and for intents and purposes, it could very rightfully be argued that Emmett was really the guy there who knew his architecture.

Argued by whom ?
Emmett ONLY had two courses under his belt when NGLA initiated design in 1907, the SAME number as MacDonald.  So how is it that you conclude that Emmett was really the guy there who knew his architecture ?

You're so desperate to preserve the Wilson legend that you're bending the truth and engaging in revisionist history.  Stick to the facts.[/color]

But, in 1910, Macdonald was just learning as well, although he certainly was stupendous at trumpeting his knowledge and his accomplishments in all of the press.

If one accepts that we continue to learn throughout our lives, I guess you could say that, but, to equate CBM's talent and knowledge base in 1910-1911 with that of a bunch of architectural neophytes is preposterous.

You know it, I know it and everybody reading this thread knows it.[/color]

Funny how he never mentioned that Merion routing though...


But, WHIGHAM does.  He writes that CBM designed Merion.

Are we to accept all the writings of those claiming that Wilson, after his trip abroad to study the great courses of the UK, routed and designed Merion, while rejecting Whigham's writings proclaiming that CBM did that work ?

Are we to dismiss what Whigham wrote while accepting what Alan Wilson wrote ?

Whigham's credentials and pedigree seem rather impressive.[/color]

Perhaps he was trying to follow my mother's wise dictate, which says, "don't brag about yourself..let other people do it for you."


ENTER, STAGE LEFT, Henry J Whigham.[/color]

Of course, nobody else mentioned his Merion routing then either, though. 


That's totally untrue.
How can you deny the existance of Whigham's writings about CBM and Merion ?

Mike, you're so desperate to conclude Wilson alone designed Merion that you're either forgetting the facts, distorting them or misrepresenting them.

Please, be intellectually honest in your presentation and/or defense.[/color]

A rational person might say that it never existed, but hey...what do we know?

We know what Whigham wrote, and that is that CBM routed/designed Merion.

Why do you ignore that fact ?[/color]

MPC,

Is it your contention that Ran Morrissett, Myself, Wayno, Tommy Naccarato and TEPaul could design and build a world class golf course in the same manner that you imply the Construction Committee at Merion did ?

Without the need for contemporary experts ?

Whose credentials are more impressive in terms of architectural experience and the study of architecture, the Construction Committee or the team listed above ?

Which group has seen more golf great golf courses in the U.S. and abroad ?

What did the Construction Committee know about drainage and the interrelationship between routing, hole design and drainage in 1910-1911 ?

You would have us believe that a group of novices, from the same club, without the need or help of outside experts created a golf course for the ages.

If it's so simple, why haven't numerous ad hoc groups accomplished the same thing over the last 100 years ?

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