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Mike Sweeney


I do have one question that kept coming to mind as I read David's piece. With all the impressive secondary sources on the early days of Merion East, why don't any of them state who actually routed the course? It would have required no more than a simple declaratory sentence. People seemed to spend a lot of time talking around the issue or making vague references to "experts" and the like. Why? Why the purposeful ambiguity?

Similar to Bob's question, I keep wondering why Macdonald never tried to claim more of a role in Merion. Certainly his ego was legendary. I think he only was at Yale once (maybe twice) and yet he is credited with and did not seem to rebuff his role at Yale. Okay, Raynor did Yale, but still it would seem that CB Mac would have said more about Merion. Ican see why turn of the century Philadelphians would not want to give credit to Macdonald the New Yorker, but not sure why CB Mac did not seek more credit.

Phil_the_Author

Sean,

You asked, "How did you conclude that "Hazard" was Tillie?"

Tilly himself makes this known on many an occasion where he wrote of his use of the pseudonym as "Hazard" in the American Golfer. In fact, there are a number of columns that contain answers to letters that have been addressed to "Mr. Tillinghast" in reference to what was written in past "Hazard" columns. Many of these are contained in the "Hazard" columns themselves.

Mark Bourgeois

Mike S

My understanding is Yale was a formal commission for Macdonald.

A selection committee was formed and they approached Macdonald.  He was pretty much retired at that point but the committee was packed with hitters.

And even then his inclination was to say no. Only when he found a seam of sand on that impossible property did he agree to it.

It was his decision to go forward - even though after that decision he served only as a "consultant" to Raynor.

Mark

Mark Bourgeois

One thing about choosing to stage the bunker construction: apparently this practice was familiar enough that in 1914 MacKenzie felt the need to criticize it on grounds it added expenses which could be avoided through the use of an experienced professional architect.

My memory is hazy, Colt actually might have written in favor of bunker staging in 1912.

Did Macdonald write in favor of bunker staging in Scotland's Gift? For some reason I associate it with the passage where he writes of the need to experience a course in differing conditions in order to judge it.

Mark

Mark_Fine

  • Karma: +0/-0
Great work David!  I recently worked on Master Plan for a Barker course.  Maybe the club will now think differently about their original architect  ;D

DMoriarty

  • Karma: +0/-0
Wayne,

I don't mind sharing my source material, or at least pointing you toward it.   Much of the information came from the Sayres' Scrapbook at the Pennsylvania Historical Society.   Also some from the Haverford College Library.  What specifically are you looking for?

Mike Cirba if you are still looking for the old Cricket magazines check at Haverford College Library and the Morris Cricket Library at Haverford College.
_______________________________

Thanks to all else who have taken thee time to the time to read the essay.  I'll try to address some of your questions and concerns tomorrow. 

Golf history can be quite interesting if you just let your favorite legends go and allow the truth to take you where it will.
--Tom MacWood (1958-2012)

Mike Sweeney

Mike S

My understanding is Yale was a formal commission for Macdonald.

A selection committee was formed and they approached Macdonald.  He was pretty much retired at that point but the committee was packed with hitters.

And even then his inclination was to say no. Only when he found a seam of sand on that impossible property did he agree to it.

It was his decision to go forward - even though after that decision he served only as a "consultant" to Raynor.

Mark

Mark,

I understand, but Yale was something like 12 years later in 1925. In 1911, I would think CB was at his peak of power and ego. Perhaps George Bahto would know? Scoland's Gift was published in 1928. My copy has been borrowed, but Merion was very very famous even at this early stage of 1928. Did Macdonald even mention it in his book? I don't recall.

I guess my real question is back to Bob Crosby's question. Who routed Merion East?

Sean_A

  • Karma: +0/-0
Sean,

You asked, "How did you conclude that "Hazard" was Tillie?"

Tilly himself makes this known on many an occasion where he wrote of his use of the pseudonym as "Hazard" in the American Golfer. In fact, there are a number of columns that contain answers to letters that have been addressed to "Mr. Tillinghast" in reference to what was written in past "Hazard" columns. Many of these are contained in the "Hazard" columns themselves.

Philip

Cheers

Ciao
« Last Edit: April 24, 2008, 07:16:41 AM by Sean Arble »
New plays planned for 2024: Nothing

wsmorrison

Wayne,

I don't mind sharing my source material, or at least pointing you toward it.   Much of the information came from the Sayres' Scrapbook at the Pennsylvania Historical Society.   Also some from the Haverford College Library.  What specifically are you looking for?

Mike Cirba if you are still looking for the old Cricket magazines check at Haverford College Library and the Morris Cricket Library at Haverford College.
_______________________________

Thanks to all else who have taken thee time to the time to read the essay.  I'll try to address some of your questions and concerns tomorrow. 



As you know, I suspected that you had access to the Sayres Scrapbooks, which I located 5 or 6 years ago at the HSoP and brought attention to this website several years ago.   I also suspected that you were going to come up with evidence that Macdonald and Whigham routed the golf course and even asked why wasn't Barker being included.  If the scrapbooks proved of use to you, and I helped steer you to them, I am pleased.  How did you access the material as it is not digitized and they restrict on site viewing?  As for the Morris Library, I've been there as well, but found very little information on Merion's golf history except a wonderful little club year book with a routing map of the Haverford course.  As for the Haverford College library, is that where you got access to old Philadelphia newspapers, or was that from Joe Bausch?

What I am most curious about (among other things) is where you got the correspondence between Barker, Macdonald and Whigham and the club.  You cite letters and reports.  You also seem to have access to notes on Board meetings and committee reports.  Where did these come from?  Where did you find information on the Site Committee (I've seen it referenced as another committee).  Where did you obtain detailed information on the transactions of the Haverford Development Company?  I found their original purchase was in June 1909.  I've suspected that if Wilson went overseas, it was around that time and not 1910, certainly not in 1911.  I did not look for additional deed transfers (I didn't know there were several, but of course my research focus dealt with Flynn's activities at Merion), but perhaps you went to the DE County Seat and obtained them.  They are very interesting and I'd be happy if you shared the info you came across on the HD Company. 

I should have my critique prepared in a week or so and will send it to you offline for you to consider.  I would do your report a lot more justice in a peer review process if I had access to your primary materials in their complete form.  I'm not out to embarrass you or to be confrontational.  I want to get at the truth as well.  I don't have an emotional investment in Hugh Wilson's role at Merion.  We've known all along that there were a number of men that gave advice, we simply did not (and perhaps do not) know the extent that advice was translated on the ground.  Maybe part 2 will address these issues.  However, the most important story in all of this is the significant design changes that were implemented almost immediately and were ongoing for the next 20-something years.  We have a great deal of documentation of this era and we know how important Wilson and Flynn were to that process.  We hold Hugh Wilson in the highest regard for the man he was (that is where I am emotionally invested) more so than the architect he became.  His other great contribution to golf cannot be ignored, and that is his efforts in turf grass research and agronomy.

However these findings play out, they certainly do not correlate with Hugh Wilson's report and that of Alan Wilson.   If you are right, they must be very wrong and I just don't see that happening as yet, considering my review to date.  However, I am keeping an open mind and am very pleased with your efforts and look forward to Part 2.
« Last Edit: April 24, 2008, 10:01:42 AM by Wayne Morrison »

DMoriarty

  • Karma: +0/-0
Bob and Mike,  Those are good questions and I am not sure there is any way to know for sure.  I think there may be an explanation but it is not entirely my own so let me get back to you on that. 

Jeff,  The real estate angle is fascinating.  One interesting aspect is just when H.G. Lloyd and the group of Merion members became involved with the developers. 

Sean,  I hope Phil answered your question regarding Tillie.  I tried to be careful about the way I dealt with Far and Sure, because his identity is a bit more of a mystery, but Hazard.   As for the citations, given what was going on on the website regarding the anticipation of the IMO, let's just say I did the best I could with the time I had.  Timeline is a great idea.  I have a few rough ones, and I will try to get them updated and cleaned up. 

Mark B.  I think I quoted CBM from Scottland's gift on waiting until later to place the bunkers.  I assume that is what you mean by staging.   
Golf history can be quite interesting if you just let your favorite legends go and allow the truth to take you where it will.
--Tom MacWood (1958-2012)

TEPaul

"Jeff,  The real estate angle is fascinating.  One interesting aspect is just when H.G. Lloyd and the group of Merion members became involved with the developers."

David:

I sent you an email about that very thing. Feel free to discuss it on this thread or by email first. Of course it may be a bit hard to specifically prove (although we do have the deed or transfer) but I think we may end up finding that Horatio Gates Lloyd was the common thread in this whole thing and way back before you seem to expect. It will be hard to prove but he may've basically BEEN the HDC and all he was really doing is sort of acting the part of MCC Golf Association's "angel" from mid 1909 on.

What if Horatio Gates Lloyd was the HDC or he basically just formed the corporation himself or with a few of his friends from Merion to help things out and facilitate the move? If he formed the thing himself even before Mid June 1909 which was one of the big land transfers would you start to change your mind on all this due to a real change in the sequences of events and who really was behind it all----eg perhaps Horatio Gates Lloyd a long time mover and shaker at MCC. And by the way, the guy really was rich!   ;) 

« Last Edit: April 24, 2008, 11:22:32 AM by TEPaul »


TEPaul

Rich:

Sorry about that---my finger slipped and I hit POST.

David:

I would also like to ask you what you think the significance of Barker was in this whole thing? You via Tom MacWood really tout the guy's ability in architecture and almost in the next paragraph you mention that MMC Golf Association or the MCC Board wasn't interested in what he suggested there anyway so what's the point of mentioning him at all in the architectural history of Merion East?

By the way, it appears Barker was getting ready to play in a tournament in Philadelphia a few days after the June 10, 1910 date you put him on the Ardmore property so maybe since they knew he was around they just asked him to drop by and tell them what he thought of the site. Whatever he told them, by your own admission, they didn't think much of it.
« Last Edit: April 24, 2008, 11:32:16 AM by TEPaul »

DMoriarty

  • Karma: +0/-0

As you know, I suspected that you had access to the Sayres Scrapbooks, which I located 5 or 6 years ago at the HSoP and brought attention to this website several years ago. . . . If the scrapbooks proved of use to you, and I helped steer you to them, I am pleased.

Yes and No.  They were very useful, but I had never seen you mention them prior to the other day.   In fact I was surprised to see that mention.  I figured Merion didn't have them, because these scrapbooks go a long ways toward answering so many the issues that we have  acrimoniously debated in the past.   In fact I was planning on including their location with the other item I am sending you.  Surely, if you have had the scrapbooks all along you would have brought this key source material to our attention.

So Merion must not have them, or Merion's are different, or Merion's are not a complete copy.  If Merion doesn't have them, they really should try to get them copied, as the they seem at a glance to be absolutely incredible.

Do you have them or not?   If not, what do you need?

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How did you access the material as it is not digitized and they restrict on site viewing?  As for the Morris Library, I've been there as well, but found very little information on Merion's golf history except a wonderful little club year book with a routing map of the Haverford course.  As for the Haverford College library, is that where you got access to old Philadelphia newspapers, or was that from Joe Bausch?

I havent been to the Morris Library, or to Haverford College since I took the LSATs, but I am sorry to hear that they do not have more on Merion.  I thought that Haverford College had the Cricketer articles.  If it wasn't them it was one of the other local  libraries.   As I acknowledged in the piece, one article came from Joe Bausch.  (Thanks again Joe)

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What I am most curious about (among other things) is where you got the correspondence between Barker, Macdonald and Whigham and the club.  You cite letters and reports.  You also seem to have access to notes on Board meetings and committee reports.  Where did these come from?  Where did you find information on the Site Committee (I've seen it referenced as another committee).

Not sure  to which specific information you refer.   But as I say in the essay, much of the information about the transaction came from the letters from the board, and they are in the scrapbook and include letters from the board, the  Barker letter, a letter from the Site Committee to the board, references to the Macdonald letter (which I note in the paper was not included,) and the Lloyd letter.    There are also Lesley letters and other letters, all from around the time in question, along with clippings, the Findlay review, many other articles, the 1911 Program with the back of the Alps green in the photo.    It is a treasure trove of information. 

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Where did you obtain detailed information on the transactions of the Haverford Development Company?
   
It was pretty complicated, even involving communication with a distant relative of one of the developers, but ultimately I tracked down the names of some of the developers and examined their transactions both as individuals and entities, and also got  the names of owners of the property from 1908 Railroad Atlases, and traced the property transactions involving both, and cross-checked these with each other.   I found evidence of many of the transactions in the real estate section of the Inquirer and local newspapers, and in press accounts and advertisements.  Most of stuff I didnt use, except to lead me to other information.   I think I identify the sources I used, and would be glad to give you more detail on those if there is anything specific you need that I havent given you.   But much of this is confirmed in the scrapbooks.

Also, I found documentation from a later exchange involving Merion and Haverford College in the Haverford College records, and from those I could determine the original encumbrance and purchase dates for the original purchase.  The information also contained legal descriptions and blue prints of that exchange, and that exchange also involved the supposed land in the land "swap."    The transaction itself is relatively small and I think involves access issues as much as anything, but if I recall correctly the easement language accounting for golfers and golf balls is interesting.   

Except for that these documents are off point on this issue, but if you want these documents, I will try to dig up the specific citation so you can get a copy for the Merion Archives.  I have copies of them, including the blueprints, but poor quality copies, and I am sure you could get  a better one for Merion than a copy of my copy.

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I found their original purchase was in June 1909.  I've suspected that if Wilson went overseas, it was around that time and not 1910, certainly not in 1911. 

This is another curiosity to me. The other day you mentioned that Haverford Development Company purchased the property in 1909.   It surprised me that you wrote this, because I recall when you found these at the end of 2006, and you or TEPaul wrote  that it was Merion who purchased the property in 1909. 

It was probably TEPaul, because I recall that he was very excited because this implied that the trip could have occurred much earlier.   But you definitely must have thought the same thing, because you did not set the record straight.  I believe I asked about the specifics of the transaction, like the name of the entity who purchased the land, and what land was purchased, but nothing was  forthcoming.   

Not sure why you guys told us that Merion bought the property in 1909?  I suspect that Lloyd may have been involved with HDC then, and that maybe his name appears somewhere on the purchase documents, but that certainly does not mean that Merion bought the property.    What was the the logic behind thinking and/or posting that Merion bought the property in 1909?  Is Lloyd mentioned in these purchase agreements?   

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I did not look for additional deed transfers (I didn't know there were several, but of course my research focus dealt with Flynn's activities at Merion), but perhaps you went to the DE County Seat and obtained them.  They are very interesting and I'd be happy if you shared the info you came across on the HD Company.

Unfortunately, I didnt set foot near Philadelphia.   As I said, I figured out the identification of the developers in the press and owners of the property from old railroad atlases, and tried to trace the ownership through newspaper transaction records until I got to Merion.   Later, the scrapbooks confirmed much of what I had found. 

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I should have my critique prepared in a week or so and will send it to you offline for you to consider.  I would do your report a lot more justice in a peer review process if I had access to your primary materials in their complete form.  I'm not out to embarrass you or to be confrontational.  I want to get at the truth as well.


Same for me here.  Just trying to get to the truth.    No need to send me your critique off record, as I will not be embarrassed if there are flaws in my essay.  In fact, given my limited resources and lack of access to much of what I could have used, it will surprise me if there aren't flaws.  That is one reason I came back, to throw it out there for all to see and identify the flaws.   It can only help it in the end.   

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I don't have an emotional investment in Hugh Wilson's role at Merion.  We've known all along that there were a number of men that gave advice, we simply did not (and perhaps do not) know the extent that advice was translated on the ground.  Maybe part 2 will address these issues.  However, the most important story in all of this is the significant design changes that were implemented almost immediately and were ongoing for the next 20-something years.  We have a great deal of documentation of this era and we know how important Wilson and Flynn were to that process.  We hold Hugh Wilson in the highest regard for the man he was (that is where I am emotionally invested) more so than the architect he became.  His other great contribution to golf cannot be ignored, and that is his efforts in turf grass research and agronomy.

The thing that most disappoints me about the past tone of these Merion threads is that many have come to believe that I have got it in for Hugh Wilson or Merion Golf Club.   Nothing could be further from the truth.    I would not devote this much time to this if I didn't have a profound respect for Merion and its history.  As I said in my paper, to find it worthy of study is one of the highest honors I can give it.

As for Hugh Wilson, I agree with you that he is a great man for golf at Merion and for American golf in general.  I tried to express that as best I could without diverging too far outside the scope of my paper but reiterate it here in case that did not come through loud and clear.    I would just hope that we can continue this discussion and analysis keeping his spirit in mind; by that I mean we should students like Wilson,  always searching for answers and always sharing them with the world of golf. 

As for your work on the early changes at merion, I'd love to see your primary resouces as our interests overlap. 
For one example, The Brooklyn Eagle did a booklet for the 1916 open with not only diagrams of the holes but also with descriptions.  Do you or Merion have a copy of those pages?  If so I'd love to take a look at them. 

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However these findings play out, they certainly do not correlate with Hugh Wilson's report and that of Alan Wilson.   If you are right, they must be very wrong and I just don't see that happening as yet, considering my review to date.  However, I am keeping an open mind and am very pleased with your efforts and look forward to Part 2.

I disagree.   Hugh Wilson's essay was my primary source, and much of what he wrote provides a linchpin of my analysis.   So I am glad to hear that you agree that he is a reliable source on most accounts.    As for Alan Wilson, his report is second hand, but even it is accurate for the most part, except where outlined in my essay.   

But I'd rather address your substantive issues than vague allusions to problems, inconsistencies and problematic conclusions.    Let me know what I do do to help on this front.

Along these lines, and meaning no offense, do you think you can refrain from warning, cautioning, or scolding readers who might have found my essay compelling?   That is, if all you couch your warnings in are vague allusions to unintentified errors and problems? 

The reason is that it is intimidating, and curtails participation and open discussion.   Plus, as of yet, you aren't offering anything substantive.   Don't you think we ought to keep it substantive?   Surely readers do not have to wait for your critique before they consider my substantive analysis, do they?   

Poor young Tommy Huckaby probably won't even dip his foot back in the water for years.


Cheers. 
Golf history can be quite interesting if you just let your favorite legends go and allow the truth to take you where it will.
--Tom MacWood (1958-2012)

Tom Huckaby

Poor young Tommy Huckaby probably won't even dip his foot back in the water for years.

LOL...I wish I were young, and people did still call me Tommy from time to time.  ;D

But Dave, no worries here.  I am indeed clueless about all this stuff (surprise surprise) and my take stands, for better or for worse.  Your article was damn impressive and interesting to me, the casual reader.  You all can and will fight out the details - I was never going to come close to becoming involved in that anyway!  My posts in this thread were my first EVER in the long history of these Merion "discussions" and I only posted as I did because darn it, hard work like yours deserves kudos.  And as you laid out how you'd like to see it received, well... it struck me that that was EXACTLY how I received it.

Now back to the battles... yes, I likely won't dip my foot back into these waters ever again - but it's not because of anything Wayne said - it's because I have absolutely nothing to add.  And yeah, that hasn't stopped me before on other issues... but on this one, well... I shall indeed leave it to the experts.  ;)

TH

wsmorrison

David,

I definitely mentioned those scrapbooks on here and to a number of others over the years.  I'm sorry you didn't realize that or the finding wasn't disseminated to you so that you had to discover them on your own.  Tom and I have seen them over the years, but it is very time consuming to view the documents.  They can be Xeroxed but the copies are horrible.  I even hand transcribed some of the articles--the Findlay one for instance.  They will photograph them , but it is very expensive.  So at this point, Merion GC only has copies of some pages that I made of the Sayres Scrapbooks, but again, the copies came out very poor.  I tried to make arrangements for me to digitally photograph them, but that never came about.  Now that our archives has a budget, we might be able to do it someday, but not for awhile.  If you've been able to get decent copies, I'd certainly like to get whatever copies you have of the scrapbooks for our archives under circumstances that are mutually agreeable.  Of course, the source of the donation will be documented.

The Haverford Library has very little materials.  There are some very old photographs of golf at the Haverford course (I think), the map you posted in the essay and that's about it.

The Morris Cricket Library has some American Cricket Annual and Golf Guides (1898-1901) but not in the time frame we need.  I'll go back there this evening to see what else I can find. 

I have a number of deeds related to Merion.  Some of the dates will be of interest to you and may shake up your timeline a bit, such as the transfer of the land to the club.  I'll share them with you if you like, but they are very large and too oversized for copying  (11X17).  I can put together a summary if you like--actually Meredith Jack (Beau) has a good one that I can compile for you.  Whatever info you have related to the land transactions will be of utmost importance to the Archives.  Your essay is known to several members and we all want whatever primary information you have that we do not.  So if you would be so kind to send them, that would be great.  We look forward to part 2.

I never said that Merion bought any property in 1909.  I've maintained all along that the Haverford Development Company bought the land in June of 1909.  It is hard to read and hard to make out the complete extent of the property from the handwritten deed, but it was very extensive.

As for the Brooklyn Eagle booklet from 1916, I have copies of the entire piece.  An original went for nearly $10,000 at auction in the last year or so.  But for research purposes, the copy I have is fine.  I will send you a copy if you like.  By the way, the hole by hole drawings were done by Flynn.

As for my criticism of several who, in my opinion, rushed to judgment, I think it is true whether or not every one of your findings is proved true.  You took an incredible amount of time to research and produce this document.  To agree or disagree point by point takes almost as concerted an effort.  Otherwise it results in a partially informed opinion.  I don't want to stifle anyone's consideration or debate on the subject.  It is a heck of a lot more interesting than whether a letter is a D or an I on a ship's manifest.  But let's be realistic here.  In order to proclaim something as extensive as this as true requires a bit more than one or two readings.  But I will tone it down if members of the site are intimidated by that position, though I would hardly characterize my words as scolding or warning anyone.

Please remember that if I don't post everything I have on this matter on the website, it is not because I am hiding anything.  Approximately 2 dozen people have the entire manuscript in their hands.  We have a book project and it doesn't make a lot of sense to put too much information on the website in advance of its publication.  If you wanted to look at our research offline and for your own interest, I would've been happy to share it with you.  In fact, I am surprised you don't know anyone that has a copy of the manuscript.
« Last Edit: April 24, 2008, 03:46:39 PM by Wayne Morrison »

DMoriarty

  • Karma: +0/-0
TEPaul,
I had written my post to Wayne before I read either your email or post,  and you may want to take a look, at that.   I am trying to deal with known facts, not speculation.   There is no evidence that Haverford Development Company was a shill for MCC.   

But even if it was, it makes no difference to my analysis.  Except that it would substantially increase the potential importance of the Barker routing.  Are you arguing that it was really H.G. Lloyd ad Merion CC, who brought in by Barker to inspect the property and design the course?   

As I indicate in my paper,  I dont have the date  that H.G.Loyd became involved.  I suspect it fairly early on and was probably in 1909, because otherwise I can think of no reason that you would have posted that it was Merion that bought the property in 1909.   But as I explained to Wayne, this stretch would have been way  beyond logic.

So why did you represent that it was Merion who bought the property?    And if you know when Lloyd became involved, why not just come out with it?

I would also like to ask you what you think the significance of Barker was in this whole thing? You via Tom MacWood really tout the guy's ability in architecture and almost in the next paragraph you mention that MMC Golf Association or the MCC Board wasn't interested in what he suggested there anyway so what's the point of mentioning him at all in the architectural history of Merion East?

Tout him?  If anything I'd say the weakness of my analysis thus far is to not give him fair coverage.  I was largely unfamiliar with him as I suspect many are, so I thought it worth noting that he was not just a club pro from up the road, but that he actually did a lot of work that was highly respected.   Surely that has a place in a paper explaining why he did the first routing on on the property.

Let me make one thing clear.  I have found nothing that eliminates the possibility that at least some of Barker's routing survived Macdonald and Whigham's scrutiny.   His influences may be harder to uncover, but may be there nonetheless.

Most of the rest misstates my essay, especially my coverage of Barker, so I will ignore it, except for this last question, which blows my mind.  You ask:

Quote
[W]hat's the point of mentioning him at all in the architectural history of Merion East?

Are you serious?   The guy does an early routing on the Armore Ave. property and you think I ought to leave it out of my analysis?   It is an extremely important part of my analysis, and leaving it out would be intellectually dishonest.   

While my analysis does draw conclusions as dictated by the facts, it is largely a factual review, and the readers can draw their conclusions.  Not giving them information would not serve anyone, and definitely not serve the truth.    Surely you dont really think it okay to bury or sit on information such as this do you?  I know you believe it about the personal Crump stuff, but your application of the same logic here is beyond me.   

Quote
By the way, it appears Barker was getting ready to play in a tournament in Philadelphia a few days after the June 10, 1910 date you put him on the Ardmore property so maybe since they knew he was around they just asked him to drop by and tell them what he thought of the site.

Again Tom, I am trying to deal with facts, not pure speculation or stretched theory.  HDC brought him to Merion, he had inspected and sketched out a routing by June 10, 1910.  By the way, the Philadelphia Inquirer described the Haverford Development Company as recently incorporated later that same month. 

He played in a tournament while he was in Oregon as well?  Does that mean he should get no credit for the course he routed out there?

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Whatever he told them, by your own admission, they didn't think much of it.

First Tom, it is not an admission because I wasn't there.  And you are misunderstanding or misrepresenting my essay.   Merion worked with Macdonald and Whigham over Barker once M&W became involved, but that doesnt mean that all of what Barker's routing was discarded.   

____________________

Tom Huckaby,

Understood.   My point is that people ought not be pressured into waiting for a rubber stamp of approval from someone else before they consider the essay.   

The essay speaks for itself.  And anyone who wants to take it on ought to do so with substance, not conjecture or vague allusion to future critiques. 
Golf history can be quite interesting if you just let your favorite legends go and allow the truth to take you where it will.
--Tom MacWood (1958-2012)

TEPaul

DM asked:
"Not sure why you guys told us that Merion bought the property in 1909?  I suspect that Lloyd may have been involved with HDC then, and that maybe his name appears somewhere on the purchase documents, but that certainly does not mean that Merion bought the property.    What was the the logic behind thinking and/or posting that Merion bought the property in 1909?  Is Lloyd mentioned in these purchase agreements?"   


Frankly, I'd never thought much about exactly when Merion bought the property. When we began carefully analyzing the history of the architecture of Merion that never seemed very important.

Wayne did mention a few years ago that he thought Merion bought the property on June 24th 1909. I still didn't think much about that because I didn't see how that mattered to the architectural history of Merion. It wasn't until the other day when, among other things, you mentioned in that email chain off of Pat Mucci's joke something about what if you could prove that Merion started as a real estate development deal? But I still didn't think that much about when they bought the property until I read your article yesterday, and it became obvious that you thought you needed to go all the way back to that to begin to make your case that you think Macdonald/Whigam routed and designed Merion East.

But my logic now is simply this:

Even if we can't prove it yet, it would not surprise me at all if essentially a guy like Horatio Gates Lloyd was the HDC, or him and few of his friends from Merion in 1909. It seems like everywhere you look in Merion at that time, on the committees, in the land deals and decision-making, whose name always seems to be there? Horatio Gates Lloyd! I already mentioned that to you today, once on this thread and once in an email to you.

So, the way I look at it, it's very possible that for all intents and purposes Merion did buy the land in 1909. It's not exactly like Horatio Lloyd wanted to surprise them, you know? If a club like that is thinking about moving their course, movers and shakers like Horatio Gates Lloyd and his kind in the club do talk to each other you know!?  ;)

It seems quite likely that a guy like that who was definitely rich was essentially acting as MCC's and/or the MCC Golf Association's "angel". He probably felt since land was seemingly looking like it was rising and perhaps becoming scarcer around where they might like to be instead of waiting to get the club to come around he'd just go out and do it himself and make a really attractive arrangement with them and work it all out down the line.

Matter of fact, that kind of thing with those kinds of people happened more often that way than not. A bunch of rich people would find some land buy it themselves, maybe in a corporation, form a club, recruit a membership and work it out down the line. That's the way my own club started in 1916 with eleven guys from Merion! (It got too crowded for them). ;)

Here's another example that may've been similar to the way the Lloyd may've worked via the HDC to get Merion what they wanted and got----

The Creek Club in Long Island! The original principals were the biggest bunch of heavyweights I've ever seen form a club. A few of them got together, formed what was called The Kellenworth Corporation and bought megalawyer Paul Cravath's enormous place on Long Island Sound and 600 acres and built The Creek Club, Of course they also had some super fine real estate for their friends and future club members if they so chose.

And guess who the president of the Kellenworth Corporation was that owned the property and initially leased it back to The Creek Club.

Well, don't worry, you don't have to guess---it was Charles FREAKING Blair Macdonald, for God's sakes.    :o




« Last Edit: April 24, 2008, 05:13:34 PM by TEPaul »

TEPaul

You just gotta understand how people like these kinds of guys were.

Hugh Wilson in 1909:  "Horatio, it looks like we're going to have to find some land and convince the membership and the Board of Merion Cricket Club to buy it to move the course."

Horatio: "Hugh, my boy, don't worry about that; I'm just on my way out to form a corporation and buy half of Ardmore. See you tomorrow, sport!"

TEPaul

"So why did you represent that it was Merion who bought the property?"

I just answered that above so why ask me again? Is it simply because you don't like the answer? You can call it whatever you like, speculation, whatever, but I happen to think it's very likely.   

"And if you know when Lloyd became involved, why not just come out with it?"

I don't know when he became involved but I have a very strong suspicion it was very early and probably very heavily in HDC.


And don't criticize me for speculating. Your whole piece is one speculation built on another to make assumptions and a conclusion. If you don't think so then why don't you show us all Macdonald/Whigam's routing plan of Merion and all the hole drawings with Macdonald's name on them all that match the way the course was built?

That's exactly what we did with Kittanset to prove to them Flynn designed the course and not Frederick Hood who they always thought had.
« Last Edit: April 24, 2008, 05:34:48 PM by TEPaul »

DMoriarty

  • Karma: +0/-0
Wayne,

I'd be glad to give Merion whatever I have, including the accounts of the land transfers.   I have an idea of what the surprise might be.  But, I'll have to respond later though. 
Golf history can be quite interesting if you just let your favorite legends go and allow the truth to take you where it will.
--Tom MacWood (1958-2012)

TEPaul

"Let me make one thing clear.  I have found nothing that eliminates the possibility that at least some of Barker's routing survived Macdonald and Whigham's scrutiny.   His influences may be harder to uncover, but may be there nonetheless."


And let me make one thing clear to you too. I have found nothing, and I doubt anyone else on here has found anything that eliminates the possiblity that Hugh Wilson and his committee, routed and designed and constructed Merion East, just as so many people from the very beginning on have explained they did!

If you don't want anyone speculating on anything, then I suggest you cut it out yourself altogether.

David, seriously, you know as well as I do and as well as everyone on this website knows that if you don't want to be legitimately accused of speculting too on your conclusion in your piece that Macdonald/Whigam routed and designed Merion you're pretty much just going to have to produce a routing map and design drawings by them to prove it. I'm quite sure if you just stepped back and thought about all this you know anything less than that just isn't going to cut it if it's really proof you're after here.
« Last Edit: April 24, 2008, 06:00:57 PM by TEPaul »

Peter Pallotta

David - thanks for your work on this, and for your essay. I've read it twice now and wanted to contribute something to this discussion, but all I have are some random thoughts/questions....and I do mean random (and jumbled).   

It seems to me that NGLA and Merion were not only different golf courses, but different KINDS of golf courses.   

Something happened between the building of the one and the building of the other, some shift or evolution in thinking (I think).

Did those who designed/built NGLA think in terms of fitting great golf holes into the site in the same way as those who designed/built Merion did?

Did laying out the holes at NGLA mean the same thing as laying out the holes at Merion?

I remember reading Mr. Macdonald's essay on NGLA. He very directly linked its golf holes with those specific holes in Great Britain that had served as models; the land that NGLA sat on (i.e. its natural state and natural contours) seemed secondary to him. 

But at Merion just a short time later, there seems to be a sense (an emerging one, a more 'sophisticated' one) that the essense of good architecture was not in using specific golf holes as models, but in maintaining and manifesting the principles that lay behind great golf holes in the context of (and while honouring) the natural lay of the land of a specific site.       

Was it Mr. Macdonald who'd made that step-up in understanding? Had his ideas about how to build golf courses evolved in that time?

What was Macdonald looking for in the land that was eventually chosen for the course? What was Mr. Barker looking for?

Anyway, I'd better stop. I'm starting to confuse myself.

Peter
 

TEPaul

David:
Here’s just another example from your piece which is actually probably beyond speculation and frankly just wrong---eg a completely wrong interpretation on your part of a commonly used phrase back in that day----“Laying out” a course.

You’re trying to convince us that the Oxford English Dictionary definition is applicable here? Most of us have read a ton of material from the old days and in most every case the term “laying out” generally meant a routing and sometimes a very fast one. It was used all the time back then that way and anyone can give you literally hundreds of examples in writing. That was the term used in the old “Eighteen Stakes on a Sunday Afternoon.” Frankly, in all my reading over the years I don't much recall the term "routing" being used until the mid-1920s or so.

Just look at the following remarks from quite close to home for you---someone you thanked in your piece for supplying the Barker research---Tom MacWood----and look at how the term is used in his own piece on here entitled “Arts and Crafts Golf.”



“One of the reasons these men failed was due to the methods they utilized in laying out these golf courses, or the lack there of. The ancient links may have taken centuries to be formed, these men preferred a much shorter duration. There was very little time and even less forethought put into the design of a golf course. As Bernard Darwin’s described, 'The LAYING OUT of courses used once to be a rather a rule-of-thumb business done by rather simple-minded and unimaginative people who did not go far beyond hills to drive over, hollows for putting greens and, generally speaking, holes formed on the model of a steeplechase course.'

Harry Colt recalled a particular incident, 'A leading man on the subject was introduced for the first time to 150 acres of good golfing ground, and we all gathered around to see the golf course created instantly. It was something like following a water-deviner with his twig of hazel. Without a moments hesitation he fixed the first tee, and then, going away at full speed, he brought us up abruptly in a deep hollow, and a stake was set up to show the exact position of the first hole. Ground was selected for the second tee, and then we all started off again, and arrived in a panting state at a hollow deeper than the first, where another stake was set up for the second hole. Then away again at full speed for the third hole, and so on. Towards the end we had to tack backwards and fowards half a dozen times to get in the required number of holes. The thing was done in a few hours, lunch was eaten, and the train caught, but the course, thank heavens, was never constructed!'”



That kind of thing for which the term "laying out" was almost always used doesn't sound much like someone just constructing a golf course to someone else's fairly well developed routing and hole design plans. Does it sound like that to you?

Frankly, it's almost the opposite.
« Last Edit: April 24, 2008, 06:34:32 PM by TEPaul »

TEPaul

David:

I've read your piece over very carefully now and I just want to point out what I consider to be other examples of what sure looks to me like speculation on your part----eg seemingly just accusing somebody of hyperole when you seem to do it just to suit your timeline or your overall argument.

This one would be the case of you claiming that Richard Francis must have been tweaking Macdonald's routing with Lloyd at some point in the end of 1910 when it has always seemed to others that it was done when he was working on the planning of the course with Hugh Wilson and the "Construction Committee".

But yet, you go on to say later that the "Construction Committee" which was the only committee Richard Francis was ever assigned to at Merion wouldn't even be formed until January of 1911.

Isn't it just a bit too convenient on your part to both accuse him of hyperbole AS WELL AS put him out there doing something he wouldn't even be assigned to do for a few months?

And what about Hugh Wilson? Do you think he was just sitting around doing nothing waiting to become the total novice chairman of the committee with both Francis and Lloyd on it who'd been out there tweaking the routing without him? That sounds pretty illogical to me. Doesn't it sound that way to you?

Honestly, this hooking one convenient assumption to another this way really is constant speculation and it's  getting a bit loose and illogical to me.

Believe me, this isn't criticizing YOU or being uncivil to you. It's just critiquing your piece at face value, the very thing you said you welcomed.
« Last Edit: April 24, 2008, 06:54:14 PM by TEPaul »

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