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Peter Pallotta

Mike -

I managed to get through philosophy and english degrees at university without ever having learned my grammer as a child. I think I just tried to mimic what I read in books. To this day, if asked I can basically name only a "noun" and a "verb"...but luckily, I'm rarely asked :)

Peter

paul cowley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Patrick,

Please sing along with me;

"I feel pretty..oh so pretty...I'm as pretty as I can be..."

;)

You're now arguing that civil engineers made a 30% mistake on a 90 yard wide piece of land, which you know is silly.   Combined with the Macdonald letter, it's very, very clear that no golf course routing existed prior to November 1910, and that the Francis Land Swap clearly happened when he was part of NOVICE Hugh Wilson's committee sometime between then and April, 1911.

You can admit when you're wrong, although I know you never will.     ;D

It does feel good...trust me.   :D

Like the little train that could...I know you can, I know you can, I know you can.  ;D


Mike ....I love it that you were able to weave in a little "West Side Story" to help bolster your factual evidence.

.....next I can see TP offering up "When you're a Jet, you're a Jet all the way....from your first cigarette to your last dieing day....". ;)

Now back to the serious only content that makes this site lose its interest....for me anyway.
« Last Edit: May 23, 2008, 10:31:36 AM by paul cowley »
paul cowley...golf course architect/asgca

TEPaul

".....next I can see TP offering up "When you're a Jet, you're a Jet all the way....from your first cigarette to your last dieing day...."."

PauleyC:

I might be able to get into some kinda rendition of that but maybe not...

Back in that day, although I was from Long Island New York about half the time my real emotional home was Daytona Beach Florida and you know what that meant day in and day out. It meant drive-in car hops on most every other corner of town, fast chopped and channeled cars, waitresses on roller skaters, milk-shakes and burgers and fries, and most of us with our heads looking under hoods or in the back seat trying to cop a feel. Remember how big some of those panties and bras were back then?

I knew New York's West Side and its basic story but I wasn't really into people like those Jets. I was into Fireball Roberts and his kind--he was my total hero as it was with the rest of Daytona Beach guys like me.

I doubt Fireball even knew where New York City was. He probably heard about it but that was about it. If you showed him one of those West Side Jets it would've been interesting.

I know he didn't know where France was because when Luigi Chinetti (the US Ferrari importer) asked Fireball to drive for him at Le Mans, Fireball actually asked Chinetti where France was and did Big Bill France own that too?

Can you imagine that big Ichabod Crane-like greaseball in a Ferrari at the 24 hours of Le Mans? It's the most incongruous thing imaginable. But he did it and he even got them to switch the steering wheel to the other side because he said he wasn't used to shifting gears with his left hand.

23 and a half hours into the race Fireball had basically buried the field--he was something like three miles ahead----the French fans were going crazy cheering this thing on---Firebul, FIRE-BOOL!! And then The Fates kicked in, as they always do, and his Ferrari's engine just died with the finish-line almost in reach. Fireball got out and as I heard tell they carried him back to the pits.

Just thinking about all that---the incredible coming-together of such crazily diverse worlds never stops fascinating me but most of all it was the talent----his talent, in his chosen calling! It was off-the-charts! The man could just drive a car, seemingly any car, and anywhere, like the wind. He may not even have understood what he really had, what he really possessed---the amazing talent---after all he was just a great big tall greaseball like the rest of us in Daytona. Thinking about something like that Fireball thing at Le Mans still brings tears to my eyes today. It's funny how our lives and times give us these little wiffs and sniffs of stuff like that from time to time and then it just floats away into the past and into what we call history and maybe somebody's interest in it someday in the future and their reinterpretations of what it all was and what it all meant.

I've got this funny feeling that Hugh I. Wilson was into something like that in a different place, a different time and a different way. Anyway that's what all those who knew him seemed to say, so there must have been some reason.

But now we have these people who don't know any of that and they have no feel for it at all---they don't have a clue. So they have to knock the guy down and insert some other great man into the equation to make it all make sense to them somehow. It's a shame really and sometimes just the shame of what these clueless people do to some of those from back who had every right and reason to be the legends they became, might make me cry again too. It's really sort of tragic how some of us can't let ourselves understand certain things from other times.

But those Jets were OK, I guess, not really at the level of Fireball Roberts but who knows maybe they were because they had another talent I don't understand very well. True talent just fascinates me, no matter what line of work or art or endeavor it's in. Some of those Jets could really truly dance--they had that talent-----or at least George Chacharis sure did. I guess he pretty much had to have that true talent for dance because he certainly wasn't very pretty to look at and to attract a girl who looked like Natalie Wood did you definitely had to have true talent in something. Or at least that's the way I used to figure it and maybe I still do.

It was Natalie and George, wasn't it, or am I just too old now to remember?

« Last Edit: May 23, 2008, 11:41:48 AM by TEPaul »

paul cowley

  • Karma: +0/-0
....no man....you're right on. :)
paul cowley...golf course architect/asgca

Mike_Cirba

Patrick,

Please sing along with me;

"I feel pretty..oh so pretty...I'm as pretty as I can be..."

;)

You're now arguing that civil engineers made a 30% mistake on a 90 yard wide piece of land, which you know is silly.   Combined with the Macdonald letter, it's very, very clear that no golf course routing existed prior to November 1910, and that the Francis Land Swap clearly happened when he was part of NOVICE Hugh Wilson's committee sometime between then and April, 1911.

You can admit when you're wrong, although I know you never will.     ;D

It does feel good...trust me.   :D

Like the little train that could...I know you can, I know you can, I know you can.  ;D


Mike ....I love it that you were able to weave in a little "West Side Story" to help bolster your factual evidence.

.....next I can see TP offering up "When you're a Jet, you're a Jet all the way....from your first cigarette to your last dieing day....". ;)

Now back to the serious only content that makes this site lose its interest....for me anyway.



Paul and Everyone else playing along at home,

I'm a HUGE fan of "West Side Story", but that isn't precisely what I was going for.

Instead, I think these Merion discussions need a HUGE dose of this;  (WARNING - R-rated...you might want to turn down your speakers)  ;D

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=loWrI1FneSM&feature=related
« Last Edit: May 23, 2008, 03:51:26 PM by MikeCirba »

Jeff_Brauer

  • Karma: +0/-0
MPC,

Little known fact about "Anger Management" (that I just made up) - some cut dialogue:

Nicholson: "You have anger management issues"

Sandler: "I spend too much time on Golf Club Atlas!"

Of course, the movie "Analyze That" probably came from an earlier Merion Design thread.....
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

Mike_Cirba

MPC,

Little known fact about "Anger Management" (that I just made up) - some cut dialogue:

Nicholson: "You have anger management issues"

Sandler: "I spend too much time on Golf Club Atlas!"

Of course, the movie "Analyze That" probably came from an earlier Merion Design thread.....

I don't know about you Jeff, but I'm seeing a restrospective, flashback "back in time scene", with Nicholson as the frustrated teacher CB Macdonald, and Sandler as the precocious student Hugh Wilson, with perhaps Woody Harrelson playing the part of Whigham.

Perhaps we can also cast John Turturro as a semi-crazed Richard S. Francis, who Patrick would have measuring everything in sight with his surveying tools every day for the previous 10 years before the site was even found, working on 5000+ different potential routings simultaneously, an 18 inch pile of discarded paper drafts crumbled in anger at his feet, and ready to take on anyone who looked askance at him.  ;)    (WARNING - R-Rated - You may want to turn down your speakers)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qIjiwvY2F-0
« Last Edit: May 23, 2008, 03:52:08 PM by MikeCirba »

Jeff_Brauer

  • Karma: +0/-0
I think the early reviews of the new Indiana Jones movie have them scouring the world for the lost routings of CB Mac and Barker for Merion! 

Its no coincidence that they brought Karen Allen back to play the slightly misspelled "Marion" is it? ;)
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

Mike_Cirba

Mike C -

a small point but I wanted to mention it simply because I'd never thought of it before (even if I think I had it in the back of my mind). You wrote a couple of pages back:

"Similarly, the whole idea that the Merion course that opened in 1912 was perfectly great out of the box is similarly inaccurate.  By 1924, almost half of the course...7 holes...had been wholly or partially rerouted and many other holes were completely revised in terms of bunkering configurations. As Tillinghast mentioned...when it opened in the fall of 1912 it was still very much a work in progress, with many of the holes "being but rough drafts of the problems conceived by Hugh Wilson and committee"."

Thanks for that. That strikes me as important, though I'm not sure how or why.

Also, what do you think (and/or what's the consensus) on what Tillinghast meant with the line you quote from him? I'm guessing there's debate about that, but I read it as Tillinghast using the word "problems" as a synonym for "a golf hole's challenge or test or strategy". So what he was saying is that the strategic principles behind the golf holes conceived by Wilson were still in draft form in the fall of 1912. Does that make sense?

Peter     

Peter,

I got home and I wanted to slightly correct what I wrote earlier from memory on my Blackberry, as well as answer your question I unintentionally neglected earlier.

Peter

Actually, it should read

"It is too early to attempt an analytical criticism of the various holes for many of them are but rough drafts of the problems,(COMMA) conceived by the construction committee, headed by Mr. Hugh I. Wilson."

It's been a long time since grammar school for me, but my reading of it is that the noun is "holes" which are then described two ways;   "are but rough drafts of the problems" and "conceived by the construction committee...".

Did you do sentence diagrams in school too?


As far as what he meant by "problems", yes, I believe your definition that he was referring to the "Strategy" of each hole is dead-on correct.   

It also seems very clear that he is saying that those hole strategies were "conceived by" the construction committee. 

If they were only out there building to someone else's plan, I'm frankly perplexed how or why they would be "conceiving" of anything at all.   They would be following someone's orders who already conceived of the holes, or their problems, which are used quite synonymously here.

Furthermore, if they were building the standard Macdonald template holes, why would they need to "conceive" of much of anything really?   Most of those holes are self-defining from a strategy and feature standpoint.

Interestingly, in the same article, "Far and Sure" writes,

"Mr. Charles B. Macdonald, who had been of assistance in an advisory way..."

I find it very telling that the author seems to have gone to pains to tell us exactly who conceived of the holes, and their problems, and who "was very helpful in an advisory way."
« Last Edit: May 23, 2008, 03:49:39 PM by MikeCirba »

Mike_Cirba

Like I said, Shivas...it's been a long time since I was diagramming sentences in Mrs. Rawlings class!  ;)

Perhaps you could diagram it for the class Mr. Smartypants?  ;D

Or will you tell us that the "rough drafts of the problems" refers to criticisms, and not holes!  ;)

Followed by the fact that the criticisms have been "conceived by the construction committee..." ;D
« Last Edit: May 23, 2008, 04:02:24 PM by MikeCirba »

TEPaul

"Also, what do you think (and/or what's the consensus) on what Tillinghast meant with the line you quote from him? I'm guessing there's debate about that, but I read it as Tillinghast using the word "problems" as a synonym for "a golf hole's challenge or test or strategy". So what he was saying is that the strategic principles behind the golf holes conceived by Wilson were still in draft form in the fall of 1912. Does that make sense?"

Peter:

I'd agree with that interpretation and definition of the way the word "problems" was used. Tillinghast was definitely not the first one or the only one to use that word in writing in that way.

I suppose one of the most interesting questions apparently not yet asked in all these long threads on the entire architectural development of Merion East that lasted for the last 14 years of Hugh Wilson's short life and actually continued on after him with Flynn for perhaps 8-9 more years----and that is when he first got into it did he ever expect to be involved with its architectural development that long?

I guess one will never know but when Merion first got in touch with Macdonald in 1910 they certainly realized he'd been working on his NGLA for 2-3 years already and as the years went on with Merion they could also see that Macdonald was not stopping with the architectural development of his course and he too would continue on with NGLA even longer than Merion East would.

Also in Wilson's world he could hardly miss the fact that when he began that other unusual "amateur/sportsman", Herbert Leeds of Myopia in Boston had been at his famous course for about a decade, like Macdonald would do or the Fownes or Crump.

I truly believe that while some today just look for reasons why those men could not have done these things themselves without leaning heavily on some other great architect, that all those men just didn't look at it that way. They felt they could do it themselves and I believe they all did with a little help from their friends.

It was an unusual time, that's for sure---the world of the "amateur/sportsmen" architect whose courses destined for greatness took them huge amounts of time.

Collaboration and lots of time was the true thread that runs through all these projects that grew to greatness, I think. I was once talking to my old friend John Ott who really loved architecture as he certainly knew I did. He grew up at Merion and he was at Pine Valley for forty years. I was talking to him about the "Philadelphia School of Architecture" because I was writing an article about it for the GAP magazine and John said; "The key to the Philly School was that they were all friends and playing partners, they weren't getting paid and they just colloborated with one another just like you and I would do if either of us was creating a golf course around here."

I put most of that remark of John's into the article because I think he hit the nail on the head.

Jeff_Brauer

  • Karma: +0/-0
TePaul,

You wrote and article for a magazine? I bet the editor was wringing his hands looking at the 50,000 word first draft and figuing out how to get it to about 2500 words or so...... ;)
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

TEPaul

TePaul,
You wrote and article for a magazine? I bet the editor was wringing his hands looking at the 50,000 word first draft and figuing out how to get it to about 2500 words or so......"

Jeff:

Yeah, a number of them actually--one for the local golf association magazine and one for the USGA's 2005 US Amateur program, and one small one recently on Geo Thomas because the Philly Amateur is at Whitemarsh Valley this year on the club's centennial. No, I'm not wordy if they give me a count. I just turn on the word counter and fit it right in. I got pissed with the Thomas one, though, because I put in there that he was a word class rosarian and the editor took it out. He might've thought that meant George was like all red or something or maybe even totally addicted to red wine.

I also wrote a really long and comprehensive golf architectural article for "American Gay Rights" magazine AND a magazine called "American Beagle and Hound" on the life and times of Dev....,

OH, what a minute, I'm not supposed to say stuff like that on here anymore, right, because somebody on here gets totally hysterical about that and thinks it's shocking and disgusting and homophobic and disrespectful to animals and provincial and worst of all it's not even funny!
« Last Edit: May 23, 2008, 06:57:43 PM by TEPaul »

Patrick_Mucci


Perhaps we can also cast John Turturro as a semi-crazed Richard S. Francis, who Patrick would have measuring everything in sight with his surveying tools every day for the previous 10 years before the site was even found, working on 5000+ different potential routings simultaneously, an 18 inch pile of discarded paper drafts crumbled in anger at his feet, and ready to take on anyone who looked askance at him.  ;)

Mike, I enjoy reading your posts.

In law school they teach you to argue the facts if you have the facts on your side,
and,
to argue the law if you have the law on your side,
and,
to argue loudly and/or absurdly/humorously if you have neither.

You my friend have mastered the latter.

Your posts should be required reading for first year law students.
[/color]

With respect to Francis, HE tells us in his own words that he spent many, many hours on his drawing board and on the site/course with his instruments.

But, you conveniently choose to ridicule and diminish his efforts.

Answer this:  Why do Cornish and Whitten give him co-credit for designing
                      Merion ?

I guess they figured, if he was drawing plans/designs/holes and working on the site/course with his instruments, his work must have been important enough to earn equal billing.

TEPaul tells us that C & W obtained their info from Merion's archives.

So it would seem that you're the only one left in the dark with respect to his role.  Or, are you in the light, but just in denial ? ;D

TEPaul

Pat:

Francis' roll in Merion's design and creation is a most interesting one, don't you think? I certainly do. It happens to be about the only wholly individual story of any single architectural event participation credit taking to ever emanate from the record or archives of Merion. And the fact it was revealed and written almost 40 years after the fact is interesting, don't you think?

What could it really mean-----that none of those five men on that committee who routed and designed and constructed Merion East with some advice and suggestions from Macdonald and Whigam which they always so freely and seemingly thankfully admitted and wrote----ever took credit for anything in particular in an individual way except for Francis, who actually explained he felt that single event was the only thing he should personally take credit for?

We will never know exactly who did what and where but honestly why do some people have a problem with the fact that every member of that committee told Alan Wilson for a report he was asked to write for a Merion history that "in the MAIN Hugh Wilson was RESPONSIBLE for the ARCHITECTURE of the East and West courses?"

I just don't understand why anyone has a problem with those words and that report. Do you?


Mike_Cirba

Patrick,

I'm glad you found the humor in my post.   ;D

Richard Francis absolutely had a clear role in the routing and design of Merion East.   He was one of five men in Hugh Wilson's construction committee who routed the course, conceived of the problems, and built the holes, all with the valuable advice of CB Macdonald and HJ Whigham.

My attempts at humor are borne of the sense of the silliness of all of this.   David's essay raised some serious questions that would tend to make it appear that 1) The land was purchased based on Macdonald's visit and presumed routing around mid 1910, and 2) A routing had to have been done prior to purchase (of course, by Macdonald & Whigham) because the triangle of land purportedly referred to in the Francis Land Swap was there when the purchase was recommended and the land map drawn in November 1910.

Both of these assumptions would lead us to believe that the course was routed before Hugh Wilson arrived on the scene, as head of the Construction Committee in early 1911, supporting David's thesis that CB Macdonald and HJ Whigham, and not Hugh Wilson, actually designed the course.

However, due to the diligent work of Wayne and Tom, we now know without any doubt that 1) CB Macdonald's visit in June 1910 yielded a single letter that under any reasonable review was a very hedged recommendation to purchase the property, but first get some soil samples...a more generic, non-commital, polite letter could almost not be imagined. and 2) The Triangle of land has now been found to only measure 90 yards wide at its widest point, instantly making very clear what the Francis Land Swap was all about, and also immediately PROVING that the work Francis did surveying and mapping and helping with the routing happened AFTER November 15, 1910, and with the accompanying minutes that apparently mention this land transfer in April 1911 that Tom mentioned, we now know that it all happened during the time Wilson was in charge.

We also now know more clearly what Alan Wilson said when he gave credit  to M&W for "advising as to our planS (as in plural), as evidently when Macdonald came back in April 1911 he helped the committee pick out the best of multiple plans (routings) that the committee had been considering.

At this juncture, unless new evidence is produced, I think any reasonable and prudent man would simply say "case closed", and move on.

If there is more in the way of new facts or evidence that David or anyone would like to share, it's probably the time, because it seems all that is left at this point is for Tom and me and some others to attempt humor to keep this thread from imploding, and a whole lot of personal insults coming from the other side.  We can keep going back over the same old stuff in different ways, or like my last exchange with Shivas, we can go back to grammar school and diagram sentences.   It is getting a bit silly, but I'm glad you feel I could teach first year law school.   For a simple coal country kid who went to a state school, you put me in some pretty heady company.   ;)

At this juncture, though, the facts have been aired, the debates have taken place, and the historical record stands, only to be supplemented by whatever else might be uncovered in the future.

For now though, nice try guys.   Seriously....some excellent questions were raised, and I'm of the belief that at the end of the day much more will actually be known about the details of the origins of Merion and that's a good thing.

It's too bad that so much blood had to be shed to reach that outcome. 
« Last Edit: May 23, 2008, 09:53:08 PM by MikeCirba »

Patrick_Mucci

TEPaul,

You can't ignore the fact that Alan Wilson was Hugh Wilson's surviving brother.  I think that fact greatkt influenced the responses that a query would evoke.

Francis was an engineer who probably understood more about that end of the business than any of the others.

I can see him being Wilson's Raynor.

TEPaul

Pat:

Here is something for you to really nibble on!

The more I think about this entire Merion first phase creation and then take it forward a couple of things jump out at me I've never considered before. I don't think Wayne has either and probably no one has.

You mention Francis. What was he and why do you suppose he was put on that committee to design and build the course?

Why did Merion even seek Macdonald's advice in 1910?

If you asked me they sought him out, and asked him and Whigam to come to Ardmore to ask him to tell them how they could do almost exactly the same thing themselves at Merion he was doing at NGLA with himself with some of his friends and his friendly or "kindly" collaborators?

Who did Macdonald say he brought in to do NGLA with him? He tells us he asked Whigam and Travis to be his "associates." Does that sound a bit like a little committee with Macdonald as its chairman sort of like the committee of five with Hugh Wilson as its chairman? It does to me! Matter of fact, look on page 178 and Charlie said; "As I stated in my agreement to associate with me two QUALIFIED GOLFERS in AMERICA, making a COMMITTEE of three to carry out the GENERAL SCHEME!"

Who else does Charlie mention with the creation of NGLA? He mentions Joseph Knapp, James Stillman, Charles Sabin and Devereaux Emmet.

Who in the world are Joseph Knapp and James Stillman? I've never heard of them in architecture and I bet no one else on this board has heard of them either with anything at all to do with architecture before or since NGLA.

I do know who Charles Sabin was and I think you do too. He was a really rich big-timer from NYC who owned or would own ALL the land to the west of NGLA which became his magnificent Long Island estate and that is now Sebonak G.C. (do you think Sabin sounds a bit like Merion's Horatio Gates Lloyd?? ; ).

Charlie tells us he dumped Travis and it's no wonder because they had a huge falling out over Travis' Schnectedy Putter issue which seemed international to the extent the President of the United States weighed in on the controversy!

Emmet is obvious as he designed GCGC and Charlie said that was one of the three best courses in America before NGLA. Charlie belonged to GCGC too!

But even twenty years later who did Charlie NOT mention in HIS BOOK in the 3 year long first phase of NGLA's creation? Isn't it obvious? He never mentioned when he wrote about the men who helped conceive of NGLA, the man who would be his ENGINEER/SURVEYOR for the rest of his career in architectur------ SETH RAYNOR, a Princeton educated local Southampton surveyor/engineer.

So who did Merion's committee have?

Rodman Griscom, a really good player who'd won the 1905 Philadelphia Amateur. Henry Toulmin, a prominent doctor and rich guy. Horatio Gates Lloyd---need I say more! AND, Richard Francis, a Philadelphia engineer/surveyor who was the Philadelphia manager for a national construction company.

But let’s not forget Hugh Wilson, another really good golfer who beat Tillinghast in 1903 in a local tournament and we all know Tillie was good enough to play in US Opens!


Doesn't all this seem so spooky similar, that a reasonable mind may say it was almost a carbon copy of the NGLA committee and design structure and modus operandi?

In that I believe Merion was the FIRST to ever ask Macdonald to help them to do with architecture (who else came to him before that?). I think they basically just went to him because the knew him well anyway from the Lesley Cup and asked him to come down (since he refused to ever be paid anyway) and look at some proposed land possibilities and such and explain to them and show them how he organized and conceived of and built his course, and then they'd just go and do what he started to do three years previous.

What did he tell them to do from his letter? For one thing to get a topo map because even he couldn't tell them much without one.

Did Macdonald make any drawings or plans himself for anything he ever did in his entire career in architecture? GeorgeB is aware there may only two individual hole drawings he did at some point on NGLA. Macdonald apparently always depended on his engineer/surveyor, Seth Raynor, to so all his drawings for him in his entire career.

Seth Raynor didn't come to Ardmore during the first phase development of Merion East. So I see no way at all that Macdonald ever would've or even could've drawn any kind of routing or design for Merion East in 1910 and furthermore Cuylers said in a letter to president Evans that there was no definite course at the end of 1910. Board minutes say many course plans were done by Wilson and his committee before the spring of 1911.

He probably just said after looking over the land that it suited a shorter course, rather than a longer one which would be better for the membership, try to use some of these natural features like this one and that one over there, and if you don’t own that strip behind the clubhouse try get it because you should use that creek for a golf hole.

But I'll tell you what, Patrick, even if it was never recorded anywhere that I know about what Macdonald and Whigam talked about out there at Ardmore in June of 1911 with that search committee or whoever else was there, it would shock me if Charlie Macdonald did not say to them:

“Boys, you got me and Whigam here who are doing NGLA together as the committee to tell you what I think of this place so, I’m telling you to get topo maps like we have so you can draw what you conceive of, get yourself a committee of “amateur/sportsmen” like I did and not that guy Barker who’s job is the professional at my club, GCGC, and, Oh, by the way, do something I did that I don’t think anyone has ever done before in golf course architecture, get yourself a engineer/surveyor who’s substantial and reliable like my own Princeton educated Seth Raynor.

And so, enter onto the scene of the creation of Merion East, Richard Francis, Philadelphia engineer/surveyor and MCC member who would spend hours over a drawing board, running instruments in the field, both of which engineers and surveyors are professionally trained to do, just plain talk to them (Wilson and the rest of the committee) about concepts and then DRAW them on their topo contour map. And, after the total “amateur/sportsman committee is in place and after the land acquisition is more in place in early 1911go do many iterations of course plans in the winter and early spring of 1911, and then, go see Charlie and Whigam and get them to show you their data for their course and the copies of holes and architectural principles fro abroard, and their NGLAcourse as yet formally unopened-----and then go back to Philly, hone it down and then they’d come down and look over what you did and maybe give it their approval if that’s what you’re asking for and then---boom, open the starting gate in the spring and get to work and build what you created!

“Oh, and this is semi-compacted inland soil so you’re going to need to do a lot of work on how to grow good golf turf.”

“I took your advice, Mr. Macdonald, and got in touch with those US Department of Agriculture forage grass botanists you recommended and I sent them some soil samples and we’ve corresponded about twenty times already.”

“Good for you, son, you’re are go-getter and you may make a name for yourself someday in golf grass research and if you do come talk to me because I’ve had about a two year delay in getting my golf course to have semi-decent turf.”

“Mr. Oakley said it’s pretty hard to grow good golf turf on straight sand with no nutrimental, I mean nutritional binder.”

“I think its called a nutational bond offering, son, but ask Lloyd about that. What else did you say, Boy, I couldn’t hear you but Henry and I’ve got to go! Good luck to you and your committee,”…… as Macdonald gets into his limousine with Henry Whigam.

“Pretty nice guys, don’t you think Henry?”

“They’re not bad, Dad. By the way, did I tell you I think I can drive the green on the cape hole.”

“You try a stunt like that, Boy, and I’ll disinherit you, expunge your marriage and marry Frances off to Sabin’s boy who at least has some money.”

« Last Edit: May 23, 2008, 11:14:34 PM by TEPaul »

Patrick_Mucci

TEPaul,

I think there are similarities in the genesis of both courses.

I'll get into it later with you, but, I'm off to bed now.

And, CBM not only mentioned Raynor, he praised him to the highest degree.
Read pages 202-206.

Nighty nite. ;D

P.S.  Mike, I'll respond to your posts later, as well.

TEPaul

"TEPaul,
You can't ignore the fact that Alan Wilson was Hugh Wilson's surviving brother.  I think that fact greatly influenced the responses that a query would evoke."

Pat:

This time I'll just forget I heard you say that. We're trying to talk architecture research here, not bullshit. By the way, in the future, it might be a better idea to not automatically assume that all direct source material we have in architecture is a lie.

Even if you still think what Alan Wilson said is a lie the fact is the board meeting minutes prove it isn't unless you think people like this are going to sit in a board meeting and just lie to one another about what they just did, what they're doing and what they're thinking of doing, how and why.

As for me, Patrick, I don't have the time to waste on things like that but you apparently still think everyone on here does.

In the future, some of you people are going to have to get used to just admitting you're wrong when you are wrong.

Moriarty apparently doesn't understand that any better than you do. It seems he thinks when he knows he's wrong it's just a better idea to ignore it and just insult people instead.


TEPaul

I think I'm done here. We're going to work on a more detailed report for Merion that reflects the true architectural history of the East, unless something else comes up in the future such as Devie actually came to Ardmore twice with Charlie and Hank.

But what will really be interesting to me is to see how this website's contributors react to the apparent truth about a trip abroad in 1910 for seven months and a bunch of drawings and plans being brought back by Hugh Wilson.

I'm betting it will show how much any kind of revisionist history on the architectural understanding of a golf course can distort things. I'm betting it will take a month for some contributors on here to get that story out of their heads to learn how to analyze the truth.

And, frankly, this is the very reason we have gone to so much trouble to prevent Moriarty's revisionist theory and story to take hold with anyone, even for a day!!!!   ;)

Jim Nugent

Tom, do you have some evidence that Wilson made that 7-month trip to Europe in 1910? 

TEPaul

JimN:

No, I do not. 

But by saying that I'm not exactly saying that I'm absolutely certain it never happened. Personally, I think it is unlikely that it happened for a number of reaons but I'm in no position to say it never did or could have, not yet anyway (we continue to look into the origins of that story as I think all good researchers should). Unfortunately, with the atmosphere on here now unless I say it that way I may run the risk of being called a liar at some point in the future and who wants that?

What interests me the most, though, is not a 1910 trip or for seven months or whatever but why you ask me this rather simple question at this point.

Don't think that post #723 of yours didn't get my attention because it sure did.

Because of a post like that one, I get the distinct feeling there is something about you, Jim Nugent, that is remarkably intuitive and I really mean that. I have no idea how many of the smaller details of this entire Merion history or these Merion/Macdonald thread details you're aware of but it seems to me you are one of the very few who sees the big picture here and I really do mean the BIG picture and by that I don't just mean Merion's history alone!

You haven't entered these threads that often but when you have I think it's been really valuable. You don't take sides in this either, it just looks like you weigh in with an overview that should (if more people would pay attention to what you're saying) cut through all the "noise" and get these ENTIRE subjects back on track to finally get to a resolution that could work well for everyone---for what might be called the Moriarty/MacWood side, for what might be called the "Philadelphia" side (sometimes referred to by the other side as the "Philadelphia Syndrome"), and for Merion G.C. itself. But probably most important of all since we are on here----what might work best for GOLFCLUBATLAS.

Get in touch with me if you'd like and I'll explain more.

I have this feeling if all these threads that have surrounded Merion, where they originally came from and why, where they've been and why and where they are now and why and all that's happened with them and their primary participants were basically overviewed by a really intuitive guy like you who is leveled-headed and stays above the fray, I think you could actually manage all of it right out of this bickering, triviality-fixated wilderness that all of us who have contributed most have been in for so long!

And if that could happen I think all of us can eventually get to see the real history of that time back then or get as close to seeing the truth of it all as the available evidence will allow.

I'd even suggest you hook up in this with a couple of others who haven't participated that much but just seem to show some really good BIG picture intuition. I suggest Kirk Gill and Peter Pallotta. Don't worry about that you all don't know everything, that will come along the way. I just think the really good intuition you've shown might be able to manage this whole thing through if we all listen to your intuitions and follow where they seem to be leading.

That simple question you asked me above I think lies at the very base of this entire thing we are doing today. What we need to do is run that story's existence backwards to see how close its existence really did come to Hugh Wilson and his committee and what they really did back then. If along the way we find it got in there for some innocent reason I think the intuition you show can make "the protecting of the innocent" happen and I'm sure you know what I mean. Others on here may not, but its important to do that to learn a really Big picture lesson.

I have a neat analogy for you to what I'm asking you to consider, and it actually has to do with the actual architecture and agronomy of Merion itself.

Some years ago when Merion was looking at their options for their upcoming bunker project a sort of independent analytical study and report was done by a man I might call perhaps the best golf "architectural/archaeologist" in the world today. I wasn't out there with him, I only read his report but apparently he stood in front of that enormous fronting bunker on #13 green and he said:

"Do you see that thing? If I took a soil core sample probe and went from the top of it vertically down, eventually I will hit "Hugh Wilson's fingerprints." It may be down there 3-4 feet but I will find them."

I know you're definitely intuitive enough, JimN, to know what I mean by that and how it can apply to these threads on here and to Merion's true history.

Get in touch if you want to.

Thanks
« Last Edit: May 24, 2008, 10:28:22 AM by TEPaul »

TEPaul

" but I'm not getting something, and I can't put my finger on what it is..."

That's probably true, and it may be true for a lot of people. But I don't think it is for Jim Nugent. I think he has some really good big picture intuition going on here! Let's wait and see how he reacts first.

Mike_Cirba

Shivas,

I have no way of knowing whether this is true or not, but would ask why you think Hugh Wilson needed to be there in June, 1910, when Macdonald was brought by Rodman Griscom and the "Site Committee" to see the property and let them know if it looked like good golfing grounds?

I've seen two historical mentions of Wilson in 1910.

Tillinghast mentions in the November issue of "American Golfer" that he hasn't been around for tournaments but in that same article mentions George Crump's return from Europe so I'm not sure what to read into that, if anything.

Here is a link to the article;

http://www.la84foundation.org/SportsLibrary/AmericanGolfer/1910/ag51m.pdf

We also know that he played in an event in October of that year.  

In any case, there is no mention of Hugh Wilson's involvement in Macdonald's first site visit in any of the letters sent by the Site Committee to the Board of Governors, in Macdonald's letter to Lloyd, or in the formal letter to the membership in November 1910.
« Last Edit: May 24, 2008, 11:06:13 AM by MikeCirba »

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