[TEPaul]

"How involved they were is still unclear, IMO."


Michael Blake:

And if there is no direct proof (such as a routing map or design drawings from Macdonald/Whigam or Barker) of how involved anyone was, then what would you expect anyone looking at this subject seriously to do or say other than say or ask----"The most logical explanation is....."?


Look at it this way. How much sense does it really seem to make for a guy like Moriarty to put three people--eg Barker on June 10, 1910, and MacDonald/Whigam at Ardmore for maybe a day or two in the fall and then try to imply that something as important as a routing and design plan had to came out of just those three days alone? How can he even remotely imply with any credibility at all that all the Men of Merion who we know were involved in this and who we know wanted to see this get done were just basically doing nothing in that vein the remaining 362 days of that year?

Does anyone on here really believe or buy into the notion that Hugh Wilson was actually over there just sitting on his hands doing nothing on the routing and design through 1910 (assuming he really wasn't abroad in 1910, the fact of which he wasn't has most certainly not yet been proven).

If you really think that's some kind of stretch of logic, Michael, I, for one, just don't think you're being in the slightest bit logical. I sure do know that David Moriarty isn't being with what he both said and implied in that vein in this piece.

If any of you think that kind of dismissive and exclusionary logic by Moriarty or this webste is going to get our attention or the attention of Merion G.C. to even consider changing the architectural attribution on Merion East you are sadly mistaken.

Moriarty and this website's discussion on this subject are just going to have to be a whole lot more specific and a whole lot more logical than that, that's for sure!

If he can find and produce a routing map and some hole designs that match the way Merion East was originally built than that's an entirely different matter.

He and people like MacWood can imply on here that we and Merion G.C. just totally resist that but I can pretty much guarantee all of you that we don't at all--not for a minute.

But to accept that somebody will need to come up with more than just a bunch of points and dates hooked together with a bunch of innuendos as to what they mean and what should be concluded from them.

[Michael Blake]

Tom P,

The boldfaces in my post are quotes from David's paper.


I'm agreeing with you.

[TEPaul]

MikeB:

Thanks for the clarification. I just read those bold-faced remarks and I really didn't even think whose they may've been.

You see, I really don't have a problem with using remarks like that in some of these discussions even if some people don't seem to like them, perhaps including you.

My point is, in many, many ways they are almost necessary to continue conversations and discussions when there clearly may not be available proof either at hand or even in existence for what's being discussed. If there isn't what are we to do then, just drop the subject? 

For people who do this kind of research as Wayne and I have been on Merion and many other courses for a long long time, it just gets to be a fact of life that there may never been available proof with all areas and elements of this kind for the subject we're dealing with but what can you do but just go on with the best and most intelligent logic you can muster up. The fact is with most all courses and clubs of this age a whole lot of things that would be useful and provide proof on various things is just lost and gone. We have to recognize we may never find it again.

The problem, I guess, I have with David Moriarty on this thread and other Merion threads is he seems to keep criticizing me for speculating and not offering proof, when in fact it seems you offered excellent evidence that he does the very same thing on his discussions and posts. The fact he doesn't seem to want to admit it or that he may not even notice it is troubling and makes discussion with him very difficult to nearly impossible sometimes.

But at this point, I don't expect him to admit it despite you confirming it above with those bold faced remarks of his. I expect he will just deny it or dismiss it again.

[DMoriarty]

Michael Blake:

Thanks for your comments.  I tried very hard to set forth the facts without excessive, unreasonable, or unsupported speculation of the type that is so often bandied about in these posts, so I am glad you brought your critique to my attention, and considered it closely. 

But, as you or anyone can see below, in the context of my essay the supposed speculation you list:
1.  concerns points which are immediately confirmed by facts, or
2.  offers alternative explanations of fact on a matter not at all critical to any thesis in the essay. 

As for your first, my "most logical explanation" was immediately confirmed by Alan Wilson, Hugh Wilson's brother.

the most logical explanation for their return visit was that they were continuing to guide Wilson and his Committee with the layout of Merion East.

Alan Wilson, Hugh Wilson’s brother, offered an account that confirms this interpretation.

“Those two good and kindly sportsmen, Charles B. Macdonald and H.J. Whigham . . .  came to Haverford . . . to consider and advise about our plans.

Your second, third, and fourth examples are all from the same section, I offer two possible explanations as to why Merion had not started primary construction as of April (as indicated by A. Wilson's and Tillinghast’s accounts.)  These explanations are tangential to any thesis in the essay.   One of them is also exactly same conclusion that TEPaul and Mike Cirba and others drew, but from slightly different facts.

Both Tillinghast and Alan Wilson referred to the course as still in the pre-construction state when Macdonald and Whigham returned.  Apparently, Wilson and his Committee had not yet begun in earnest to construct the course.  Perhaps they were waiting for Macdonald’s and Whigham’s return, or perhaps they were waiting for better weather.  In same edition of the American Golfer, Tillinghast also reported that it had been a late winter in Philadelphia, and that even by mid-April the courses were far from fit.

“The lingering of winter in the lap of spring has seriously interfered with the opening of the courses, none of which have been really fit during the month of March, and indeed the middle of April finds them all very backward.”

So even if Merion had tried to start building before Macdonald’s and Whigham’s second visit, it is unlikely that much would have been accomplished until April, at the earliest.

As any factual analysis must, my essay draws a few conclusions based the factual support provided, but I am not aware of any of type of blind speculation with which I assume you were concerned.   

I don’t intend to go through my work word by word, but I'd encourage you and others to look at my words in their context in which they appear in the essay.

Thanks. 

DM


_____________________

[John Foley]

David,

Welcom back and congratulations on some tremendous research and investigation.

 I don't have a dog in this fight, but I am fascinated by the passion and the details those who are. This is the stuff that makes this GCA such a great place

A quick question - Does the Baker sketch exist?

[DMoriarty]

David,

Welcom back and congratulations on some tremendous research and investigation.

 I don't have a dog in this fight, but I am fascinated by the passion and the details those who are. This is the stuff that makes this GCA such a great place

A quick question - Does the Baker sketch exist?

Thanks for the welcome and kind words.

The sketch may, but if it does I don't have it. 

I was hoping you did. 

[Sean_Tully]

Following some of this Merion stuff for a while and thought that some info on Barker would add to some of the timeline of events. As researchers are aware some information gets confused and can be atrributed to other people and vice versa. Just throwing it out there.

I have some info on Barker taking a trip to the UK and returning on March 18, 1910. He went over there with some other Pro's and Am's and played the usual matches with guys like Vardon and so on.  I don't have any specifics, but I would think that something could be found about this groups visit in the UK Golf Illustrated magazine.  Three months later he is at Merion, according to David's IMO piece.


Tully

[RJ_Daley]

I have some info on Barker taking a trip to the UK and returning on March 18, 1910. He went over there with some other Pro's and Am's and played the usual matches with guys like Vardon and so on.  I don't have any specifics, but I would think that something could be found about this groups visit in the UK Golf Illustrated magazine.  Three months later he is at Merion, according to David's IMO piece.

Now that is interesting to say the least.  Is it back to the ship manifests to trace Barker's trip to the old sod to study and play courses, for ideas. 

I still believe that all parties to this debate are right, and that Merion was a grand collaboration, with all these parties making significant contributions. 

On TEPaul's point about the social power of Mr. Lloyd in his time, could it be that Mr. CB Mac, may have done more than had been formally attributed as the story was told, and that the Philly guys were more disposed to a notion of pride in their own involvement as part of the collaborative creation, thus increasing their part of the on-going historical recounting of the creation of Merion, and diminishing CB Mac and Whig's roles, and that CB Mac and Whig sort of 'deferred' to the more socially powrful forces of the Merion committee compostion of members?  I still think they all thought it was good as an end product, and that the collaboration as a result was more important than the specific attribution. 

[Sean_Tully]

I have some info on Barker taking a trip to the UK and returning on March 18, 1910. He went over there with some other Pro's and Am's and played the usual matches with guys like Vardon and so on.  I don't have any specifics, but I would think that something could be found about this groups visit in the UK Golf Illustrated magazine.  Three months later he is at Merion, according to David's IMO piece.

Now that is interesting to say the least.  Is it back to the ship manifests to trace Barker's trip to the old sod to study and play courses, for ideas. 

 

RJ

Just so you know that March 18th date is from a manifest. I had the article where it mentioned his going to the UK and I  looked for him during that time frame.  Just trying to save some time for anyone that goes looking.

Tully

[Adam_Messix]

David--

I first of all want to congratulate you for all of the research that you have done as regards to Merion.  From experience I can tell you that what you did takes a lot of time, effort, and patience to go through that kind of material.  

Part 1 of your work brings together a lot of elements that are quite amazing.  It does bring forth a number of questions that I am refraining from asking in hopes that they are answered in part 2.  I am surprised at the number of conclusions that have been drawn from posters on this site from only one part, we need to let any future pieces come along and then make up our minds.  

As far as Herbert Barker goes, I have played two of his designs and have enjoyed both of them.  Both are not very long but are difficult to score on.  I understand why Capital City Club is bulldozing Brookhaven and creating a new course, but I'll miss the old course a lot.  

I look forward with great interest for Part 2.....

[Mike_Cirba]

David,

As Adam mentions, and I did earlier...I probably have more questions now than I did prior, and new evidence...or at least evidence I was unaware of tends to create that scenario.

Can we expect Part II soon?   Thanks

[Tony_Chapman]

I certainly have nothing to add to this discussion, but I though David's presentation was enjoyable to read. I also think TEPaul brings up interesting counter points. And, I don't have a clue who wrote the club history on the Merion website, but that certainly has Mr. Wilson travelling "across the pond" much earlier than David believes he did.

I also have become enamored with the Hagley project on the web. They photographed a ton of golf courses. You can see them all here: http://digital.hagley.org/cdm4/results.php?CISOOP1=any&CISOBOX1=Golf&CISOFIELD1=CISOSEARCHALL&CISOROOT=%2Fp268001uw

I found this interesting as well from the website.

"At the end of the war, Dallin joined a flying team headed by flying ace Lt. Col. William Barker. The team, headquartered out of Ontario, flew exhibitions and ferried surplus planes to customers in Canada and the United States. When the team disbanded in 1920, Dallin was hired as a pilot for the Aero Service Company operating out of the Island Road airfield in Philadelphia (located near the current site of the Philadelphia International Airport). The primary business of the Aero Service Company was transporting passengers on weekend excursions. At the suggestion of Dallin, they added aerial photography to their business, selling most of their images to newspapers and magazines. Dallin, uncertain about the future of Aero Service, left to form the Dallin Aerial Survey Company in 1924. He relocated his company first to Clementon, New Jersey but returned in 1926 to the Island Road airfield, which had been renamed the Philadelphia Municipal Airport."

Do you suppose Mr. Barker got Mr. Dallin involved in photographing all of these golf courses?

[DMoriarty]

Thanks Sean,  it may be worth looking into at some point.  Remember though that Barker was English and a top amateur who had won the Irish Open, so my guess is he had exposure to some courses over there.   Nonetheless it might be interesting to figure out where he was shortly before Merion.   

Tony,  I agree that the aerials are cool, but I think you may have the wrong Barker. 

David,

As Adam mentions, and I did earlier...I probably have more questions now than I did prior, and new evidence...or at least evidence I was unaware of tends to create that scenario.

Can we expect Part II soon?   Thanks

Don't hold your breath. 

[Joe Hancock]

David,

Please tell me you'll still be around when Tom and Wayne publish their book.

On second thought, I'm not sure any of us will be around that long....

 

[Sean_Tully]

Thanks Sean,  it may be worth looking into at some point.  Remember though that Barker was English and a top amateur who had won the Irish Open, so my guess is he had exposure to some courses over there.   Nonetheless it might be interesting to figure out where he was shortly before Merion.   

Yes, I was aware of his English background, and I like how his trip fits into the timeline of things. I think that there is a difference though from just playing a course to thoughtfully looking at a routing and seeing what make it works. He would have been playing with Vardon and Braid amongst others and they could have easily shared some ideas with him. A lot of innovative work was going on in the UK at the time and it would have been a nice break from the "dark ages" found in America! Had to get that in somewhere.

Obviously more info on the trip is needed to see what they were up to.

Great research on your part and I hope to follow up your IMO with one of my own that will surely get some people worked up as well.

Joe

Looking forward to seeing your live show. Keep em' coming!


Tully

[Mike_Cirba]

This is a really, really dumb question, but the Wikipedia for Merion Golf Club states that Hugh Wilson was a Scottish emigrant.   

My understanding is that he was born in Trenton, NJ.   I just wanted to see if anyone knows anything about the possible Scottish attribution, or where that rumor came from?

[Mike_Cirba]

One of the things that's a real mystery to me, perhaps not as dumb as my first question, is why Hugh Wilson's passport is not available on ancestry.com, where the 1912 Shipping Manifest was found, which also purports to have entries for every US Passport from 1795-1925. 

How did he sail overseas without a passport?   

I'm not asking this to cast doubt on the 1912 trip, which I'm beginning to think was Wilson, but to wonder how he got on board, or into Great Britain or France without proper ID?

Did one need a passport to travel abroad in those days?


One other thing I'm curious about and I'm hoping David might respond.   In the thread about news accounts, he wrote;

"One more thing along the same lines as above,

I just noticed that you dismiss the Crump manifest because of the age is exactly 10 yrs off, and because, according to you, this George Crump is a British Citizen.   

[Of course the manifest says that he is  a US Citizen of British descent, but I am sure you will dismiss that too as just my interpretation.]

Let me add to the reasons you might further want to dismiss the manifest page. 

1.  That may not be an "A."  Blindly search it and you better be looking for "George R. Crump." 
2.   For Baker, he is listed George too, because Joseph is crossed out and George was written in. 

George Baker traveling with George R. Crump."


THe manifest you refer to follows;




I'm a bit confused again, but it's late...

I see that this George Crump is listed as 50 years old and a English Citizen.   

Does that mean if I come across a US Record of an "Alien Manifest" with a Hugh Wilson listed as English, or Scottish ancestry, that this might be our guy?

[Mike_Cirba]

David,

In a similar vein, when Hugh Wilson went to see the Bents of Le Touquet, France on what seems to be his only voyage, that being a very short trip in 1912 (considering that we know he left the United States sometime after early March, seemingly had a ticket home on the April 12th Titanic voyage, and after being somehow delayed, finally left from Cherbourg, France on May 1st, with the intent of the trip ostensibly to see and study every great course in Great Britain and abroad) , I'd be curious why he'd travel 260 miles (without much else in the way of golf to see) across slow, coastal village roads from Le Touquet to Cherbourg, when he could have very easily just caught the next regular ship out of Boulogne Sur Mer, only 23 miles away?

[DMoriarty]

The Crump Manifest does not say he is a British Citizen.  There are three consecutive columns with similar concepts

1.  Nationality.   The top box says USA and all the rest are checked.
2.  Race or People.  They are using this like heritage or ancestry or descent.  He is of British ancestry.
3.  Last Permanent Residence.  Top box says Citizen and the rest are checked to indicate Citizen. They weren't keeping specific residences for US Citizens.

So Crump was a US Citizen of British ancestry.

I dont think a passport was required until WWI, and I dont think that ancestry.com has completed digitizing all the records.   

David,

In a similar vein, when Hugh Wilson went to see the Bents of Le Touquet, France on what seems to be his only voyage, that being a very short trip in 1912 (considering that we know he left the United States sometime after early March, seemingly had a ticket home on the April 12th Titanic voyage, and after being somehow delayed, finally left from Cherbourg, France on May 1st, with the intent of the trip ostensibly to see and study every great course in Great Britain and abroad) , I'd be curious why he'd travel 260 miles (without much else in the way of golf to see) across slow, coastal village roads from Le Touquet to Cherbourg, when he could have very easily just caught the next regular ship out of Boulogne Sur Mer, only 23 miles away?

Maybe Bents of Le Touquet had spread like Poa.

You put a lot of faith in the legend, but I have not found documentation for many of the details, like the 7 month trip.  In fact I recall a year or two ago that Wayne and/or TEPaul very much doubted that he took a 7 month trip.   From the beginning of March to the beginning of May is two months.  Even subracting travel time, one could see quite a few courses.

But let's put an end to your confusion on the issue, and hopefully the issue all together . . . 

[DMoriarty]

Tom MacWood kindly sent me an excerpt from the May 1912 edition of the British magazine, Golf Monthly, and it goes to show the purpose of Wilson's trip.  Here is my clipping of the relevant portion.



Surely this puts an end to notion that Wilson's golf study trip occurred before his primary construction of Merion East.   

Unless there was another American Hugh Wilson, this one with the middle initial G., who  was studying golf courses while Hugh I.  Wilson was doing something else overseas . . .     

Thanks Tom.

[Gary Daughters]

Not having followed the Merion Wars, and having but skimmed David Moriarty's essay up to now, I'd be interested to know what courses in the U.K. Wilson visited.  For such an admirably researched project it seems a glaring omission to assert that Wilson spent "seven months overseas playing and studying the great courses" and to leave it at that. 

[DMoriarty]

Gary,  I think the skimming may have thrown you off target a bit.   I never said that he actually spent 7 mos. studying the courses.  That was my restatement of  the accepted legend. 

I have little idea of what courses he saw on his trip (2 mos. max), but I do know that he saw them after he had already built Merion East.   

[Rich Goodale]

Thanks Sean,  it may be worth looking into at some point.  Remember though that Barker was English and a top amateur who had won the Irish Open, so my guess is he had exposure to some courses over there.   Nonetheless it might be interesting to figure out where he was shortly before Merion.   

David

Barker never won the Irish Open, nor could he have, since it was first contested in 1927, 3 years after his death!  What he did win was the Irish Amateur in 1906, at Portrush.

rich

[DMoriarty]

I stand corrected.   Thanks Rich.

[Rich Goodale]

http://query.nytimes.com/mem/archive-free/pdf?res=9E03E7D7153BE233A25754C2A96E9C946796D6CF

Interesting analysis as to how Merion East was routed and played in 1916.

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