[Peter Wagner]

Just checking to see if anyone has used Arborcom to aid in tree trimming / removal.

We got a really interesting presentation yesterday where Arborcom techs did a survey of our 10th green and the trees surrounding it.  Then they put it into a computer model to show you the shade patterns throughout the day and throughout the year.  Then they showed us the same thing but with several scenarios of trimming.  They can actually tag individual limbs to allow for high efficiency trimming.  Efficiency is important to us because we have 1400 mature oaks trees.

Has anyone used this service before?

http://www.arborcom.ca/intro.html

[wsmorrison]

Peter,

Around Philadelphia, it was used with great success at Philadelphia Country Club.  Rolling Green used Arborcom, and took out hundreds of trees.  I'm just guessing, the system probably told them to take out lots more 

Although I am not at all an expert, in our area, the early morning sun is very important to dry the bent grass greens in time to prevent fungus and diseases.

[mike_malone]

 We used the service to select trees for removal. It enabled us to keep some but deal with the shading concerns.

  Personally, I think you can just look at the rising sun in the spring and save $.

[Ian Larson]

We used the service to select trees for removal. It enabled us to keep some but deal with the shading concerns.

  Personally, I think you can just look at the rising sun in the spring and save $.



.....my thoughts exactly Michael. But this is a great tool for trying to sell the tree removal to the green committee and membership taking some liability off the superintendent or architect.

[mike_malone]

 Ian,

    You touched on the reason we did it; to help the super make his case.


   They do provide interesting graphics that enable one to see the hours of sunshine on the green for any day of the year. This is fun to play with but not really practical.

[wsmorrison]

Mike Malone,

I think Mike McNulty, the very able superintendent at Philadelphia Country Club would disagree with you.  So you would study the rising sun in the spring and figure it out yourself, huh?  What about the summer?  What about winter to see where ice damage would cause problems?  In my opinion, it is not nearly as simple as you make it sound.

[James Bennett]

Tall trees in the north-east to south-east direction of a green will cause problems.  They don't need to be that tall in the northern hemisphere winter in the south-east direction to be a problem though.  Northern hemisphere East to north-east will be most critical, as it affects morning sun.

It can be smallish trees near the green, and it can be great big tall ones 50 yards away.  There are a couple of good size of tree/distance from green parameters in Dunlop White's In My Opinion pieces on tree programs.

James B

[Peter Wagner]

Thanks everyone, these thoughts are helpful.

James, you're right about tall trees in the distance.  I was surprised in the presentation that 80 foot sycamores 65 yards away were an issue.  They are on a different fairway and depending on the time of day you would not see them as an issue.

The comments on Arborcom as a backup for the super are right on the money.

Wayne, your comment on early morning light is exactly echoed by the Arborcom guys.

We are budgeting about 300k for trimming this year and the Arborcom portion is about 10% of that.  Seems reasonable to avoid guessing and finger pointing.  I'll post some before and after pictures when the work is completed.

On a slightly different topic, I wonder if archies would be well served to include Arborcom type analysis in the design phase for a customer?  Arborcom does this really cool age progression where they can show shadows with trees 20 years taller and wider.

Best,
Peter

[James Bennett]

James, you're right about tall trees in the distance.  I was surprised in the presentation that 80 foot sycamores 65 yards away were an issue.  They are on a different fairway and depending on the time of day you would not see them as an issue.

Peter

my club's #18 green was shaded in the morning by a stand of river red gums that were perhaps 80 yards away and in the easterly quadrant, but very tall.  They blew out in a storm and were removed.  The indigenous gums that are still there are half the height of the river red gums and do not cause a shade problem. 

The #18 green had been relaid a few years earlier, and had always looked thin and struggled health-wise.  Well, within the first year of those river red-gums being removed that green sprung to life.  The bent really appreciates the early morning warmth.

It shocked me how dramatic the change can be for a tree so far away.  My club has other similar stories.  We even have one green where half is always shaded and the other half gets some good sun.  That green is bent with poa on the left (sunny side) and poa with bent on the right (shady side).

James B

[SL_Solow]

A number of clubs in the Chicago area have used this service and reports are favorable.  I think Jeff Goldman of Olympia Fields has some first hand experience.

[PGertner]

Personally, I think you can just look at the rising sun in the spring and save $


Sheesh....the mentality us Supers deal with.....

You cannot beat scientific data which Arborcom supplies.  Sure, any of us can make educated guesses which trees to remove, heck my 16 year old daughter could do that!!!   It is difficult to question the scientific data Arborcom provides. 

Spend the dollars, listen to the presentation, do as they suggest and you will get the results you want. 

We've all seen project failures led by well meaning Greens Chairmen or Boards of Governors.   

Patrick Gertner
Potowomut Golf Club
East Greenwich, RI

[Jeff Goldman]

We did use Arborcom a couple years ago when a difficult summer led to problems on a few greens.  They were very helpful, for two reasons. First, they gave us great information and direction about which trees were a problem, and projected the growth of other trees to show which might grow to become a problem in the near future.  Second, they helped enormously with the political issues involved in tree clearing.

Our worst green was 18 on our North Course.   It is surrounded by large old Oak trees, which the club refused to cut down before the US Open in 2003 (and which led to the re-routing of the course for the tourney, because the trees made it impossible to put up large bleachers).

This time, the membership was invited to see Arborcom presentations, and had already seen the lousy greens.  Even our greatest tree-hugger said that while he hated to see the trees cut, he understood why it had to happen.

[Clyde Johnston]

Arborcom is an excellant service especially when you have to sell the tree removal to a committee or (worse) the entire membership. Their software can graphically show not only the amount of shade (or sun) to a green but even a time lapse animation.

For those who can't afford the service you can do it yourself by entering your location (long, lat) in the US Navy Observatory website http://aa.usno.navy.mil/data/docs/AltAz.php to get the solar data for any day of the year at any location. It will give you the azimuth and altitude angle of the sun at any interval you choose. I use a compass/clinometer and an adjustment for magnetic deviation to manually determine where the sun path is at various times of the year. It's a little time consuming but it works!

For those interested in this method, give me a call or send an email.

[John Mayhugh]

On a slightly different topic, I wonder if archies would be well served to include Arborcom type analysis in the design phase for a customer?  Arborcom does this really cool age progression where they can show shadows with trees 20 years taller and wider.
Best,
Peter

This seems like a great idea for new course design.  Fortunately we seem to be in a phase of not planting useless trees.  Hope it lasts.

[wsmorrison]

"Arborcom is an excellant service especially when you have to sell the tree removal to a committee or (worse) the entire membership. Their software can graphically show not only the amount of shade (or sun) to a green but even a time lapse animation."

Clyde, 

You mean it is better than having Mike Malone come by on a spring morning and look at the rising sun? 

[mike_malone]

 I am a thrifty person; so, the idea of paying to decide which of a mature stand of trees to cut down for agronomic reasons seems wasteful to me at 3k per hole. I suggest that the super is capable of this diagnosis, certainly not me.

    I spoke from my experience of a course with tall hardwoods at least 100 years old. The idea to do this for a course in development seems more attractive.

   Wayne,

    I would only offer my services if I get to drive the tractor.

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