Island Greens

[Bill_McBride]

Just noted a thread about a Tillie course closing, meaning it was designed and built I guess before 1930, that featured an island green on a par 5.

I know there's a Ross in NE Florida that has an island green.

We think of the TPC Sawgrass' 17th as the most famous island green, but it's a relative newcomer.  Now there are floating island greens (at Coeur d'Alene) and island greens you can only walk to during low tide (Cabo?).

What, where and when was the first island green?  Are there in the motherland of golf, the British Isles?

Let the tales begin to flow of these islands in the stream.

[Mike_Cirba]

Bill,

It's a little known fact that they were all the rage in the years between 1910-1915 and Tillinghast was most responsible.

There was one at the old Aronimink course that Tillie designed with help from George Klauder and Cecil Calvert, circa 1913, there was one that he built at Olde York Road GC in 1914, there was one at Galen Hall that TIlly did about 1917,  there was one that Hugh Wilson, Klauder, Ab Smith, Crump et.al. did at Cobb's Creek that opened in 1916.

[Mike_Cirba]

By the way, Bill...

The first one I know of was at the old Baltusrol course, I believe from around 1910.   George Low was likely the one responsible for it, although Rick Wolffe or Phil may have additional info.

I'm pretty sure this is where Tilly got his inspiration.

[Bill_McBride]

Thanks, Mike, that's very interesting.  Were most of these played as short pitches or as full shots to large islands? 

I've played both and not sure which I prefer.  I remember, can't remember where, one 200 yard shot to a HUGE green that you could hardly miss with a long iron that wasn't a dead top.

I recall others that you would be hard pressed to hit with much more than a wedge.

[Mike_Cirba]

Bill,

Respectively, if memory serves;

The old 13th at Aronimink was a short par four with a pitch to an island green set back in a cove.

The old 10th at Baltusrol was a steeply downhill, probably almost driveable par four to today's 17th green of the Lower course (which is today almost surrounded by sand, not water)

The one at Olde York Road was a mid-length par three of around 165 yards.

The one at Galen Hall is brutal...around 195 yards from the tips and to a green that is hyper-elevated, the famous "moat hole". 

The old 12th at Cobb's Creek was a cute 130 yard par three dropping about 65 feet.

The one at Old Orchard that started this thread was a par five of about 475 yards...reachable in two, as it goes slightly downhill.   It's a fun hole!

[bbarkley]

Cherry Hills has one on the Par 5 17th.  However, I can not say that it was in Flynn's 1922 original design.... anyone know?


               
                                       Island Green - 17th Cherry Hills - Par 5

[Bill_McBride]

Cherry Hills has one on the Par 5 17th.  However, I can not say that it was in Flynn's 1922 original design.... anyone know?


               
                                       Island Green - 17th Cherry Hills - Par 5

The scene of Hogan's losing error in the 1960 US Open.

[Tom_Doak]

The Cherry Hills green is part of the original plan.

I think Ron Whitten wrote an article years ago trying to identify the first island green ... the one I remember him talking about was a short par-4 at Wee Burn in Connecticut, by Walter Travis.  But that was about 1915, so he could have missed earlier versions, especially if they are NLE.

[BVince]

Two other island green par 5s that I know of are the 13th at the old TPC Woodlands course and the 18th at the Kingwood Island course. 

[Adrian_Stiff]

Bill- I cant think of any pre 1970 Island greens in the UK, there still aren't that many now. One of the first may have been Johnny Miller's 18th @ Collingtree Park. (a par 5)

[Cliff Hamm]

 Golden Horseshoe claims it is the first island green.  From the website:

The "original" island green is the last in a set of spectacular par 3 holes. The green slopes from back to front and is surrounded by five bunkers.

p.s. can't figure out how to copy picture and paste to website.


 

[Jerry Kluger]

Can an island green work well on a par 5 other than for the very best players? 
I just don't see it as much more than a way to make it a three shot hole with no risk/reward option.  Saw it at Loxahatchee and I really thought it was kind of a waste - not the course, but just the way the hole is to be played. 

[Mark_Fine]

The island green at #17 at Cherry Hills CC was built in 1922.  The hole is actually patterned after #7 at Pine Valley.  I have early photos of the green which are pretty remarkable.

Here is a photo of the 17th at Suneagles as it was designed as an island green in 1926



Here is the hole today. 

[Jim Nugent]

Are there any real 100% island greens -- i.e. ones totally surrounded by water, so you have to take a boat to get to and from them? 

[Billsteele]

Isn't the 11th at The Creek (Biarritz) an island green?

[Brian_Ewen]

Are there any real 100% island greens -- i.e. ones totally surrounded by water, so you have to take a boat to get to and from them? 

Jim
Apart from the already mentioned Couer D'Alene , there is also the 8th hole at Amata Spring in Bangkok , designed by Curley & Schmidt .

[Steve_ Shaffer]

Here is the Tillinghast  island green(1917) or "moat" hole at Galen Hall:




From the club's website:

Hole #15            Par 3            Yardage: Back 193, Middle 148, and Forward 95.
Commonly known as the Moat Hole, the fifteenth is among the oldest island greens still in circulation.  Built in 1917 by renowned architect A. W. Tillinghast, the moat hole is sometimes compared to the 17th at TPC Sawgrass.  The hole is not nearly as visually intimidating as the 17th at Sawgrass, however from the championship tees it is much harder to hit the green.  The green is surrounded by a 15-foot wide moat with ten-foot high banks.  Three bridges are used to access the green.  You can safely lay up short of this hole, unlike the 17th at Sawgrass.  Many a match has changed dramatically through our amen corner, the fourteenth and fifteenth.  If you are in a match and make two pars on these holes and lose ground, tell that guy to go out on the PGA Tour where they belong!

Historical Note: In the 1990’s, the moat hole was featured in the Philadelphia Inquirer. No less than renowned architect Pete Dye was interviewed for the article, drawing comparisons to his 17th at TPC Sawgrass. During the interview, Mr. Dye seemed unaware of the moat hole but intrigued by the A.W. Tillinghast designed hole.

[Bill_McBride]

Bill- I cant think of any pre 1970 Island greens in the UK, there still aren't that many now. One of the first may have been Johnny Miller's 18th @ Collingtree Park. (a par 5)

So island greens are a particularly American phenomenon, no UK roots.   Could this be because of the lack of water hazards in the UK?

[G Jones]

The answer to the first island green in america is, I believe, east lake. The old tom bendelow course that bobby jones played on until it was redesigned to the current routing (when he was in his mid-teens) contained a downhill par 5 16th hole from by the current 7th green, coming down the left side of the 7th (as you play the 7th today) but in the opposite direction, and finishing at the island green that is now a part of the par 3 6th. It was there since the course opened as a full 18 in 1908, but existed a couple of years before that.

It had a nickname too, but I can't remember it... maybe "the circus ring"... I will need to check that up again in the club history.

[wsmorrison]

Cherry Hills 17th plans



1938 photograph



modern aerial photograph

[Mark_Fine]

Wayne,
Thanks for posting.  If I can scan it, I will post a great photo of that hole from an early addition of Life Magazine.  Some of those taken for the 1938 U.S. Open program like the one you posted were touched up (notice the green). 
Mark

[Jason Connor]

Are there any real 100% island greens -- i.e. ones totally surrounded by water, so you have to take a boat to get to and from them? 

I think so.  I thought I remember seeing an ad, perhaps for a Nicklaus course, years ago (10-15 years ago) advertising just that.

What is the NE Florida Ross course with an island green?

[Steve_ Shaffer]

I think the NLE Ross FL course may have been Ponce de Leon in St. Augustine.

[bbarkley]

Cherry Hills has one on the Par 5 17th.  However, I can not say that it was in Flynn's 1922 original design.... anyone know?


               
                                       Island Green - 17th Cherry Hills - Par 5

Seems to me, the trees behind the 17th act like a backboard of sorts, and are reducing the penal effect of the "island green".  Any particular reason, other than blocking the view of 18 tees, these trees still remain?  I could do with out the evergreens... now the weeping willow is another story.

[Phil_the_Author]

"Are there any real 100% island greens -- i.e. ones totally surrounded by water, so you have to take a boat to get to and from them?"

How quickly we have forgotten Cour De Lane... (Sorry for the misspelling and for missing that it has ALREADY been mentioned!)