Views vs Golf

[Willie_Dow]

Played Newport National today, a perfect New England high, lots of wind, beautiful sky and clear as can be!
But the course was so great that the day took over.  Vistas of Little Compton, RI (Donald Ross' Sakonnet)
Which is better?  The game, which remembers every hole played, or the view>

[Dan Herrmann]

Willie - I think taking in the views is indicative of inner peace and probably indicates that your game took care of itself.  Then again, you can be "zoned" and not see anything other than your target

This great question begs another question - do external factors like views significantly affect the perception of a course's greatness?

[Tom Huckaby]

Dan:  of course they do.  Why shouldn't they?

Tom H.

ps - I've battled this exact point with Mucci (and others) MANY times over the years.  I firmly believe that if one sees it and feels it it's silly not to count it in assessing the worth of a golf course.  Shall I take it you take the Muccian view that external views don't matter at all?  Be careful... your golfing soul is at stake... 

[Phil Benedict]

Dan:  of course they do.  Why shouldn't they?

Tom H.

ps - I've battled this exact point with Mucci (and others) MANY times over the years.  I firmly believe that if one sees it and feels it it's silly not to count it in assessing the worth of a golf course.  Shall I take it you take the Muccian view that external views don't matter at all?  Be careful... your golfing soul is at stake... 

The never to be resolved issue of whether Pebble Beach would be so great if it weren't next to Carmel Bay.  I've read a few of those discussions.

[Tom Huckaby]

Phil:  oh, it's resolved all right.  Pebble Beach Golf Links is indeed adjacent to Carmel Bay and sans earthquake isn't moving any time soon.  But those with ultrafocus can continue to wonder about such things.

 

[Dan Kelly]

A golf course is more than a collection of golf holes -- is it not?

A golf course -- a good one, anyway -- is an experience.

How can one eliminate the vistas from the experience?

Why would one want to?

[Wyatt Halliday]

Tom,

I think when a balance is struck, it raises both the course and the setting to another level. I agree with you that to debate the merits of a course, all factors internal and external should be taken into account.

However, does the beauty and surroundings of say...Half Moon Bay add to the overall evaluation of the course, or does the architecture of the course detract from the beauty and surrounds? (Desperately trying to stay emoticon free)

WH

ps-Notice I stayed away from Pebble--

[David_Tepper]

I was fortunate to spend a few hours earlier this month touring the Castle Stuart course (now in the grow-in stage), near Inverness airport.  While great care has been taken regarding the architectural design/features of the course, equal care was taken to route the course so that many of the holes line up in the sight lines of the landmarks (bridge, lighthouse, castle, etc.) surrounding the course. 

A great golf hole is a great golf hole, but a great golf hole set against a stunning view becomes a memorable golf hole.

[Tom Huckaby]

Dan:  those are all great questions, ones I've asked Mr. Mucci more or less.  Quite astoundingly - but not surprisingly - he had answers.  They were odd, but answers they were.   In short, he prefers to assess the "architecture" - that is the design - and thus the experience of actually playing on said design was secondary to him.  The fact that Tom Doak himself said that maximizing available views was a rather key part of design swayed him not.  The fact that assessing design would necessarily take in all that goes into it - including quality of site, obstacles overcome, permitting/environmental issues, client involvement, etc.  - and he can't possibly know those things for most courses - failed to sway him either.  He's and those like him remains all about assessing "design" or "architecture", as illogical as that may be.

Thus we pray for their golfing souls.

TH

ps to David:  exceedingly well said - that was the point Tom Doak made, more or less, also.  But what does he know?   

[Tom Huckaby]

Tom,

I think when a balance is struck, it raises both the course and the setting to another level. I agree with you that to debate the merits of a course, all factors internal and external should be taken into account.

However, does the beauty and surroundings of say...Half Moon Bay add to the overall evaluation of the course, or does the architecture of the course detract from the beauty and surrounds? (Desperately trying to stay emoticon free)

WH

ps-Notice I stayed away from Pebble--

Wyatt:  I'd say fair is fair.  If the "architecture" of a course does detract from what otherwise might be a great experience due to the beauty and surroundings, than it is assessed as lesser as well. I don't believe that's the case with either course at Half Moon Bay, but I could see someone trying to make that argument about the newer course there.  The older one only has scenic beauty on 1-2 holes...

My point remains that completely discounting beauty and surrounds - as the Muccians want to do - seems to me illogical.

How one weighs it would be part of personal preference.  I tend to give the course itself - that is, how it plays outside of the views - a lot more weight than the beauty and surrounds taken in a vacuum.   Mucci has many times tried to put words in my mouth to the extent that beauty and surrounds are ALL I care about; and that is plain not true.  I just do believe they must matter to some extent - and the questions Dan Kelly ask sum up why quite eloquently.  How much they matter, well... reasonable minds will differ.

In any case, myy beef has always been with those who say that beauty and surrounds do not matter AT ALL.

And that is indeed what Mucci has always maintained.

TH

[Kalen Braley]

Tom,

Your just a Doak butt-boy if you say something like that.

In all seriousness though, I would agree that if all one sees is the golf course, then your not really taking in the whole experience.  Utah golf works well in at least small part due to the outstanding mountain views from pretty much every course in town.

[Tom Huckaby]

Kalen:

Oh I'm a Doak butt-boy all right.  He just LOVED my thoughts on Stone Eagle.

 

But glad to read you have a golfing soul anyway.

TH

[Phil Benedict]

Can anyone think of a course with great views and so-so architecture?  Where you'd just as soon take a walk along the grounds as play golf.

[Kalen Braley]

Can anyone think of a course with great views and so-so architecture?  Where you'd just as soon take a walk along the grounds as play golf.

Torrey Pines...sorry I couldn't resist...

[Tom Huckaby]

Can anyone think of a course with great views and so-so architecture?  Where you'd just as soon take a walk along the grounds as play golf.

Mike Benham's gonna give me shit for thread domination... too many posts... but darn it this is another topic near and dear to my heart.

And thus to try to answer a damn good question....

Some would say the newer course at Half Moon Bay exhibits this.  I don't agree, but people have said that.

I think there's a course or two in Scotland that could qualify as well... darn I can't remember which course, but I recall one on cliffs above the sea where the holes never got that close the cliffs and were otherwise pretty featureless... the views and the hike were glorious but the golf was mundane.... darn it it's killing me... hopefully I'll think of it.

More topically, many tend to put Torrey Pines South in this category... Spanish Bay... again I don't agree on either, but they have been mentioned in this light.

There must be others....

[Tom_Doak]

Mr. Huckaby:

Glad to come to your defense this time, because I agree with you here.  As a golf course architect, I say you would have to be crazy to let your ideas of "good golf" steer you away from utilizing the most beautiful parts of a property to their utmost.  You CAN have both at once, and most of the best courses do.

However, if a site offers a beautiful setting and all the architect does with it is produce banal holes with a view, then the setting adds little to my enjoyment.  Phil, to name just a few:  Bodega Harbour, Mauna Lani, Half Moon Bay, Torrey Pines [guess I can't agree with you completely] and for me, Turnberry is close, too.

[Tim Bert]

Can anyone think of a course with great views and so-so architecture?  Where you'd just as soon take a walk along the grounds as play golf.

Furry Creek

[Matthew Mollica]

This great question begs another question - do external factors like views significantly affect the perception of a course's greatness?

I'd love to see the argument from someone who thinks they don't.

A lovely sunny afternoon near the water, whether it's Turnberry, Cape Kidnappers, Pebble Beach or somewhere else near the water has an amazing effect on one's mind. We must enjoy ourselves moreso in such settings. And rate the exerience highly as a result. How could we not?

Can anyone think of a course with great views and so-so architecture?  Where you'd just as soon take a walk along the grounds as play golf.

I've not been there but all and sundry tell me Kauri Cliffs fits into this category nicely.

MM

[Tom Huckaby]

Tom:

First, my Dad doesn't even go by Mr. Huckaby.  But I appreciate the courtesy.  I'll call you Tom given we've "spoken" so many times before in here, and well...I have little class anyway.  

In any case, many thanks for the confirmation.  This - maximizing views - always did seem to me to be pretty fundamental, but of course the take of a true expert and leader in the field is always good when it helps one's case.  Some day Pat will come around.

As for the individual courses, well... I don't doubt that some of those - even Torrey Pines - might have been done better; I just can't get to the point of calling Torrey Pines "banal" as my recollection is I faced quite a few fun and difficult shots.  Same goes for Half Moon Bay (and I assume you mean the newer course there as the older has 95% views of houses).  Bodega Harbour I am with you.  Never played Mauna Lani.

Tom H.

[Bill_McBride]

Can anyone think of a course with great views and so-so architecture?  Where you'd just as soon take a walk along the grounds as play golf.

Furry Creek

Tim - GREAT EXAMPLE!!!!    Incredible views of the fjords of Canada.  Awful golf course.  What were they thinking?  I don't know if anyone could have done better, maybe it is just an impossible site.......

North Berwick woiuld always be a great golf course but think what the Bass Rock adds to it.

Great point by David Tepper about the skill of golf architects in lining up geographical features.  That is one of the highlights to me of a round at Capilano, where Stanley Thompson lined up Vancouver harbor on three dowhill holes, and two mountain peaks on back nine holes.  Absolutely drop dead gorgeous.

[Tom_Doak]

Tom:

Actually I was talking about the old course at Half Moon Bay, I've never been out on the new one.  It used to get some attention because of the one hole with a view ... but it was an architectural decision (as well as a land planning decision and a financial decision) not to make better use of what they had to work with and let the golf course just get swallowed up in houses.  We get contacts from developers every week or two with similar projects, and we pass on all of them.

[Tom Huckaby]

Tom:

Actually I was talking about the old course at Half Moon Bay, I've never been out on the new one.  It used to get some attention because of the one hole with a view ... but it was an architectural decision (as well as a land planning decision and a financial decision) not to make better use of what they had to work with and let the golf course just get swallowed up in houses.  We get contacts from developers every week or two with similar projects, and we pass on all of them.

AHA!

Well we are in total agreement here then.  The praise for this course as a seaside gem has always kinda irked me... and oddly enough, it's the first course I ever thought of in terms of what might have been.  Not that I do that much anyway, but I did so about this one.  No fan am I!

TH

[M. Shea Sweeney]

I was just thinking about this exact topic today. The course I work at has some of the best water views around.

It made me think how would the golf course be perceived if it lacked these views, and thus aluding to the question of how would any golf course be perceived lacking its views.

To me they go hand in hand. The views are just as much apart of the golf course as a punchbowl is to a Seth Raynor golf coure. There have been some arguments about this with Pebble Beach.

There are some courses whose stock rises because of the views, and there are some courses that would be looked upon just fine minus the views.

[Kirk Gill]

Familiarity often breeds contempt, at least as far as golf course views go.

Some views are just so incredible that it really doesn't matter how many times you see them, they still impress, but some other views can become just part of the background after a while. Maybe to be really honest about judging architectural quality you need to play a course often enough that the "blown away by the view" factor recedes just a little bit.

Whenever this type of discussion comes up, I think of the poster child for amazing views locally, a course called Arrowhead. Red sandstone formations jutting out of the ground all over the place, and the view from the 10th tee is one of the most gorgeous I've seen, on or off the golf course. Out-of-towners just seem to love it. It takes a few turns around that track (perhaps significantly fewer trips for those with a more practiced eye than my own) to realize that the golf course just isn't that great.

Here's a link to some pics of the course by Aidan Bradley:

http://www.golfcoursephotography.com/courselist.asp

Under "United States" just click on Colorado, and you'll find the course listed there.

[Tom Huckaby]

Kirk:

Why should us golfers care about judging "architectural quality"?

And if we were to be so hubristic (sorry, just spent a day with Bob Huntley and I am on a vocabulary high), wouldn't we want to know all that goes into the architecture and the design?

TH

ps - I've played Arrowhead, and I agree with you - it isn't that great of a golf course.  But that being said, to me the views and surrounds at the very least keep it from being awful.  Put it in the Bodega Harbour etc. class as listed by Tom Doak.