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James Boon

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Drainage?
« on: April 20, 2008, 09:40:52 AM »

The commentator on Sky's coverage of the China Open (where it was chucking it down!) has just quoted Robert Trent Jones as follows:

"The 3 most important things about a golf course are Drainage, Drainage and Drainage."

Discuss...
2023 Highlights: Hollinwell, Brora, Parkstone, Cavendish, Hallamshire, Sandmoor, Moortown, Elie, Crail, St Andrews (Himalayas & Eden), Chantilly, M, Hardelot Les Pins

"It celebrates the unadulterated pleasure of being in a dialogue with nature while knocking a ball round on foot." Richard Pennell

Joel_Stewart

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Re: Drainage?
« Reply #1 on: April 20, 2008, 11:22:01 AM »
I guess he forgot this when he built Spyglass Hill?

David_Tepper

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Drainage?
« Reply #2 on: April 20, 2008, 01:53:12 PM »
Joel -

Maybe it was his experience at Spyglass Hill that made him realize this! ;)

DT

Joe Hancock

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Drainage?
« Reply #3 on: April 20, 2008, 02:06:15 PM »
This drainage x3 line is old....everyone in the business says it, and has so for a long time. I first heard in NC back in the mid 80's, and I'm sure it wasn't original then.

Had he said it under adversely dry conditions I would have been a lot more impressed.

Joe
" What the hell is the point of architecture and excellence in design if a "clever" set up trumps it all?" Peter Pallotta, June 21, 2016

"People aren't picking a side of the fairway off a tee because of a randomly internally contoured green ."  jeffwarne, February 24, 2017

Jeff_Brauer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Drainage?
« Reply #4 on: April 20, 2008, 02:29:54 PM »
Old saying and absolutely correct!  You can't enjoy the other fine features of a course if its underwater.  Nor can the turf grow.
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

Joe Hancock

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Drainage?
« Reply #5 on: April 20, 2008, 02:37:58 PM »
Old saying and absolutely correct!  You can't enjoy the other fine features of a course if its underwater.  Nor can the turf grow.

And still, it's silly and redundant. Why can't smart grown men say something like "the 3 most important things for a golf course are drainage, irrigation and sunshine"?

It's along the same lines as "it's the best land I've ever had to work with" or "it will appeal to both high and low handicappers alike".

Joe
" What the hell is the point of architecture and excellence in design if a "clever" set up trumps it all?" Peter Pallotta, June 21, 2016

"People aren't picking a side of the fairway off a tee because of a randomly internally contoured green ."  jeffwarne, February 24, 2017

Jeff_Brauer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Drainage?
« Reply #6 on: April 20, 2008, 03:31:29 PM »
Joe,

If the TV was meant for the Chinese home crowd, then perhaps we can give RTJ the benefit of the doubt in thinking that it would be new for many of the viewers, even if we have heard it?
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

Joe Hancock

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Drainage?
« Reply #7 on: April 20, 2008, 03:33:10 PM »
OK... :D

Joe
" What the hell is the point of architecture and excellence in design if a "clever" set up trumps it all?" Peter Pallotta, June 21, 2016

"People aren't picking a side of the fairway off a tee because of a randomly internally contoured green ."  jeffwarne, February 24, 2017

Mark Bourgeois

Re: Drainage?
« Reply #8 on: April 20, 2008, 04:01:51 PM »
The announcer got the quote wrong. According to Shack's book of quotes, RTJ said: "The three most important things about a golf course are French drains, French drains, French drains."

James Boon

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Drainage?
« Reply #9 on: April 20, 2008, 04:05:27 PM »
I have to admit that as a newbie, I wasn't aware how common (and cheesy?) this saying was? Its a bit like whats the 3 most important things for a new house? Location, location, location!

I think the commentator was trying to sound clever, and his audience was us guys over here in the UK rather than China. But the course was standing up well to an absolute downpour which starts to give some support to the saying? And I'm sure we have all played courses with bad drainage (Carden Park by Jack Nicklaus springs to mind) when the golf has been ruined by the conditions under foot.

After all, golf started out being played on the sandy, naturally well draining soil, of links courses so drainage is historically pretty key to a golf course. But I think you are right Joe, a more intellagent answer is out there. Maybe its just that we live in a world of snappy sound bites...

James
2023 Highlights: Hollinwell, Brora, Parkstone, Cavendish, Hallamshire, Sandmoor, Moortown, Elie, Crail, St Andrews (Himalayas & Eden), Chantilly, M, Hardelot Les Pins

"It celebrates the unadulterated pleasure of being in a dialogue with nature while knocking a ball round on foot." Richard Pennell

Jeff_Brauer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Drainage?
« Reply #10 on: April 20, 2008, 04:53:48 PM »
James,

Well maybe its time for a new snappy drainage sound bite!

GCA says:

We wanted to get rid of the drainage as fast as.........(fill in the blank)

Wet Spots are as welcome as......(fill in the blank)

Join the fun!
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

Jon Wiggett

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Drainage?
« Reply #11 on: April 22, 2008, 02:05:12 AM »
Another thought on drainage is what Jim Arthur always stressed but which is all too often ignored 'put your drains as deep as possible'. This is one of the things where the USGA specs fall flat on their face due to the blanket drainage layer being far too shallow.

Ray Richard

Re: Drainage?
« Reply #12 on: April 22, 2008, 07:54:22 AM »
I like to determine the depth of the subsurface water flow and go a few tenths below it with the pipe. We usually go down 2.5 feet max and that takes care of the problem, taking into account that deep drains don't always increase drainage capability and they are expensive to build because of increased excavation and backfill materials.

Jon Wiggett

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Drainage?
« Reply #13 on: April 22, 2008, 08:37:25 AM »
Ray,

you are of course right going deep costs more to build on the one side but you should always take the following into consideration. The deeper you can get your roots to go down the deeper you can let your top surface dry out. The deeper you let your top surface dry out the more rainfall it will absorb over a length of wet weather. The more rainfall it can absorb the longer the condition of the course will remain good for playing in the winter. The longer your season the more turnover you have allowing you to invest more for deep drainage.

If you drain to only 2.5 feet then as you know the effective drainage depth will quickly reach the top foot so as to require the drains to be much nearer together. This requires more drainage and thus long term is no cheaper than deep drainage but with the disadvantage of not allowing most areas to dry out below a foot.

To me the bottom main drainage should be atleast 3 feet and better 5-6 feet. You don't need to back fill with drainage gravel and sand to the surface, the local soil will usually be okay for the last foot or so. Indeed this will prevent the drains showing through during dry periods. My experience is that even most clays will drain sufficiently well if done deep enough and combined with the correct maintanence program.

Scott Witter

Re: Drainage?
« Reply #14 on: April 22, 2008, 09:55:52 AM »
Jon:

You make a good point and though we have gotten side tracked a bit, I think one has to consider the cost of drainage at the outset and how best to approach it to achieve success in a reasonable manner.  I am all for drainage when needed based on good common sense and practical civil analysis, but digging a trench say for a 12", 18" or 24" main line 2.5' deep as Ray R. indicates can work and keep costs manageable.  At this depth the walls of the trench should support themselves and the laborers can work within a normal bucket width from an excavator at that depth, but digging a line 5'-6' feet deep as you noted changes the cost outcome and the physical act of doing so considerably.

Once you get past about 4 ' and especially at 5'-6', you'll likely need trench support for the walls to prevent collapse depending on soil type and that will cost more $.  When digging at 5-6' you are simply moving more soil around and the contractor will charge for this too.  At that depth the trench will need to be wider for laborers to have enough room to work, hence more soil to move around and more $.  Finally, at 5-6', backfilling and compaction rarely go well--that is to say that few contractors take the time to properly compact the trenches and it never fails to see ugly  :P settlement after the first 2-3 years.  I can tell you that this is a real pain in the ass and it will be difficult to get the contractor back after the 1st year punch list items.  :P Again, I agree with your premise, but if we are to keep golf affordable, it has to be considered all around from start to finish.

Jon Wiggett

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Drainage?
« Reply #15 on: April 22, 2008, 11:00:41 AM »
Scott,

you are right in your assumption that once you go below a certain depth you will need to support the walls. Indeed, you usually need do excavate a ditch much wider than the pipe requires but this infact will help to lessen the effects of settlement which always occurs unless the drainage is very shallow.

You need to be careful to seperate your soil and subsoil well. It is best done in the summer (perfect world senario I know :P). Use a 3+ foot bucket to go down the first 2-4 feet. sloping the sides to prevent collapse but leaving a flat bottom wide enough for a trencher to run in. Then run a narrow trencher for the last 2-3 feet. The spoils from the trencher you can leave in the bottom of the main trench. Lay pipe and back fill the first foot with sand/gravel then back fill with the subsoil compacting it every 6" to a foot.

I would always do the work in house (except maybe the excavator) but certainly the back filling as you will nearly always get a better job done. It is unrealistic to expect a contractor to come back to sort out settlement as it will probably not happen but hey settlement is happeneng all over the course all of the time and dealing with it is part of normal greenkeeping (or should be). One of the advantages of digging wide ditches (5-7 feet) is if you are clever when filling the ditch you can create move across it to lessen the effect of settlement. It is often the long trench like appearance that looks bad.

Although not as cheap as 2.5 foot drainage it doesn't cost that much more if the construction co-ordination is done right. I would stress I am not suggesting that this depth of drainage be put in everywhere. It is main drainage and will need supplementing with other forms of drainage but it will allow you dry out the ground much deeper than without it

Jeff_Brauer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Drainage?
« Reply #16 on: April 22, 2008, 11:16:28 AM »
you guys sound like you are talking apples and oranges.

In a perforated drainage system, the water table would eventually seek pipe level and yes, lowering the water table would theoretically allow for deeper roots, providing the irrigation cycle did the same!

For a major surface drainage system of 10" and larger size pipes I am not sure the water table would be affected.  The reason to dig those deeper is to allow for lateral expansions at a later date, if required, since using the main line as a drain outlet will require some downhill grade.  Deeper the pipe, the further you can tie a pipe in.

It also helps to get three feet deep to keep it under the irrigation system, existing or future.
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

Bruce Katona

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Re: Drainage?
« Reply #17 on: April 22, 2008, 11:22:55 AM »
3" depth for the 10" plus lines also keeps them below frost here in the colder climates and prevents heave.  If the perf. plastic PVC pipe moves a bit in the winter, bot a big deal, it should settle in the Spring.

Jon Wiggett

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Drainage?
« Reply #18 on: April 22, 2008, 12:46:36 PM »
3" depth for the 10" plus lines also keeps them below frost here in the colder climates and prevents heave.  If the perf. plastic PVC pipe moves a bit in the winter, bot a big deal, it should settle in the Spring.

Bruce,

don't tell me you put your drainage in at 3" ;D

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