Does Vermont have the land (and chance) for a good strategic course?

[Brad Tufts]

I spent a good part of my years from 99-03 driving around Vermont while at Middlebury, and still do so several times a year while visiting my alma mater or for business.

Vermont has a good roster of quality golden age and modern golf courses, but nothing in the "great" category, save for Ekwanok.  Ekwanok has the history, the strategy, the aesthetic being surrounded by mountains, etc.  Let's throw it out for a moment. 

Decent modern courses have included CC of VT (Cooke), Vermont National (Nicklaus II), Okemo (Durkee), Jay Peak (Cooke?), Stowe Mtn. Club (Cupp) etc...  All of these layouts are expansive, befitting the VT landscape, but none fit the strategic throwback model exhibited by some of the new midwestern courses.

I couldn't help thinking while driving the backroads of VT that some of these farmlands on VERY undulating land would make several great golf courses.  I would think a layout with much of the challenge being in the varied lies would be fantastic, and require minimal bunkering.  Something like a Crystal Downs?

I do realize that much of this sort of thing depends on money, accessibility, and availablity of land.  The latter is unique in VT as 60% of the land is state owned as public state park land.  However, metro Boston and NYC are not far, and there are affordable airports in Albany and Manchester, NH (unlike Burlington unfortunately...like $450 from Boston, ouch), which are very close to some parts of VT.

Is there the potential for something great here or am I totally delusional?

[Craig Sweet]

Some pretty good land along the lake...from Poultney north....

[Craig Sweet]

http://www.beangroup.com/real-estate/Poultney-VT/equestrian

Like this in the photo

[Tom_Doak]

Brad:

We would LOVE to build a course in Vermont, particularly since my wife's mom lives there and I could probably bring the family along a bit.  So if anybody hears of a really good site, you know someone who's interested.

Lots of the state is too hilly for golf but I am sure there are spots that would be perfect.  Environmental permitting would be VERY difficult.  And it's a very short golf season, so tough to make a buck on developing a golf course, which is why only the ski resorts are likely customers.

[Willie_Dow]

I'd start with a nine holer, with a lot of land abutting.  The tee boxes would allow expanding the length of each hole, but not making it a long walk to the extended location. 

Bring back Wayne Stiles !

[Peter Zarlengo]

I couldn't help think of this as I drove back from a recent ski trip up there.  Lots of interesting topography and vegetation, but I would imagine that the soil is pretty rocky.

As far as developing a course along with a ski resort, I was told that the three largest ski resorts are Killington, Stowe, and Sugarbush. From what I remember seeing, Stowe was built pretty recently.  And if that becomes a successful model, then maybe Sugarbush and Killington will follow suit.

[Michael Powers]

Brad,
Interesting post because there is so much quality land there.  However, there are several factors which could prevent such a project.
1.  Most of the land up there is farm land and it would difficult at best to support a quality project as the area lacks big business.
2.  The current ecomony would make investors/developers shy away.
3.  The politics of Vermont would make the permitting a huge hassle on the designer and developer.  I feel that this is why New Hampshire has seen some quality projects completed recently, see Lake Winnipesaukee Golf Club.

[John Blain]

Brad,

Any particular reason you didn't include Dorset Field Club?  I played there last August and really enjoyed it. I personally thought the new holes were terrific. I know it's heresy to say this on this site but in a lot of ways I enjoyed it more than Ekwanok and I'm as traditional as they come.

John

[Brad Tufts]

Many good answers...

Craig....ths is exactly the sort of land I was talking about.

Tom...Interesting especially with your family connection.  Middlebury has plans to replace its current golf course sometime in the future.  Steve Durkee drew up plans that were displayed in the clubhouse for a time.  They included using 4x the land area of the current course, 3 practice holes, and a double-ended driving range.  He had planned to only keep two of the current holes.  I'm not sure if the college has "hired" him as of yet, as the project is not imminent.  The rumor when I was in school was that the college wanted the course to be funded entirely by donations, and it is currently on a list preceded by many new dorms and dining halls and other projects.  They have alot of land to choose from, and they have a stated goal to have one of the best college courses in the nation, and one good enough to host at US Women's Amateur in honor of Midd native Patty Sheehan.  I liked Durkee's work at Neshobe in Brandon, VT, and at Okemo, but I'm not sure if the plans add up to reaching the stated goal.  Maybe a well-addressed portfolio is in order?

Willie.....I once happened upon an old 9-holer in VT that is still visible underneath some vegetation adjacent to route 30 halfway between Midd and Manchester.  It sits in a BEAUTIFUL valley surrounded by hills, and trees have not grown back over former golf course land.  I think there was even a dilapidated old shack with the faded golf course sign still attached...it wouldn't be a bad place to buy and run and forget life for a while.

Peter Z....Killington and Sugarbush already have golf courses, but neither are in "favored" status.  They both are 60s-70s relics with poor conditioning and utilitarian mountain design.  I have only played SB, and I would not return.  Stowe's course is nice-looking although short, and Cupp has build a new course nearby called the Stowe Mountain Club.  I perused the website and it looks interesting, but quirky, short, with many layups and forced carries.  As Tom said as well, the ski areas are the businesses with the money.  I would think after the recent condo development and new lodges that Sugarbush would be looking for an upgrade.  Just hopefully not on the same site as the current course.

Mike....I agree with all three, but I would think many VT farmers would be getting up in age, and some might be willing to part with their land to an investor.  I think an upscale public course would be difficult to profit from, as the only ones that survive are the privates near population (Burlington, Manchester, Waterbury) and the local courses with good support from local public play (St. Johnsbury, Barre, Middlebury, Rutland).  A destination private or a resort course might be the only way.  Middlebury has been selling condos for retirees aimed at alums of the college, maybe a new course at Midd could take advantage of this in the same way?

John....Didn't forget Dorset, but it's one of the few VT privates I've never been to.  I've tried a few angles/connections, but have come up empty.  I'm willing to grovel and pay if you have friends!  Kidding aside, it sounds like Dorset is in a different category as a bit of a shorter museum piece...perhaps in the mold of a Cape Arundel.

[Dan Herrmann]

Is there any good land along the Connecticut River?

BYW - How's the RTJ Sr. course at Woodstock? 

[Mike_Cirba]

Brad,

The Lake St. Catherine course sits on some really interesting land as well, if a bit steep in spots.

The thing I find fascinating about the landforms in Vermont is that they sort of push the edge of what might be acceptable in terms of elevation change, particularly for a walking course.  

I'm starting to think the max is around 80-100 feet uphill for any hole, and about 120-130 feet downhill without getting downright silly.

Vermont seems to be filled with topography that fits into that category, and although the subsoil is hardly ideal, I can't imagine why a GREAT, STRATEGIC course can't be built there, even very minimalisiticly (is that a word ), that pushes the envelope a bit on what is deemed acceptable, walkable, and playable, none of which would be a bad thing.

[Craig Sweet]

Brad...I don't recall any 9 holer between Middlebury and Manchester.. How long ago do you figure it disappeared?...hmmm.....I was a member at Dorset from 1972-75....to be honest, it had a couple of decent holes, but nothing extraordinary. I have not played there since the additional 9 holes....

In terms of elevation changes...the Champlain Valley might be better suited for golf than the land around the ski resorts....

If you want to see a piece of land for golf come out here to Montana....a know a spot near Ovando that is amazing....very Sand Hill like.

[Matt_Ward]

Brad:

The plight of many New England states is that the season is incredibly short and the weather doesn't really advance the ball much. No doubt someone with very deep pockets could venture ahead and build a mega private layout for those seeking exclusion and beauty of the native countryside.

I don't see how the economics work in the favor of VT because the base of courses they have is barely getting by now.

I've played many of the existing courses (e.g. Killington, Sugarbush, Okemo, Jack's place near Burlington, etc, etc.). Many are merely cross-over points to deal with the lull of summer.

No doubt anything is possible but likely it seems doubtful.

My quick unrelated point -- big time push for golfers just north of the border. Candidly, the NE states need a concerted effort to pull things together. So much of the golf there is fairly localized (e.g. Cape Cod, etc, etc). VT is a great place to visit -- golf is just another bystander in the midst of so many other things to do there.

[Brad Tufts]

Dan...I've played Woodstock a couple times, and it is ok, but not the historic piece that it markets itself as.  They also charge the highest public greens fee in VT at about $110.  Also, the land bordering the CT river is generally steep valley land, and any adjacent flatlands are taken up by roads, towns, and farms.

Craig...not sure how long ago it went under, but the course is there, the first tee and a few features are visible out in the field.  It's on the southbound side of rte. 30.  There is some pretty undulating land along rte. 7 between Midd and Shelburne.  Some with AMAZING lake and Adirondack views, some with those and the Green Mtns. as well on the other side.

Mike...I've been intrigued by Lake St. Catherine ever since a buddy went to a golf school there.  I've driven by a few times, and it looks...interesting.

Matt....I agree with most of what you say about VT.  I can also see how the "state of NE golf" is not exactly booming like many other areas.  NE has a good number of classic courses that have existed for 80 years and will continue doing so.  We have a number of 60s-80s layouts that get by.  I would have to say, however, that NE isn't a growing area for golf.  Strangely, as I have told several people in year-round golf states, there is an EXTREME interest in the game in NE during our warm-weather months, and interest that I would say is greater from April-October than the interest in the game is at any time during the year in the South or CA.  We value our golf season greater because of the 5 month break each year.  However, does this translate to new golf course projects?

[Ken Fry]

Many great points have been raised why Vermont would be ideal for a "classical, renaissance" style course, but so have the negatives.  One point that has not been raised is the value of land.  Are Vermont prices still sky high?

Ken

[Dan Herrmann]

Matt- I kinda disagree about the weather in New England, but I do know where you're coming from.  Highlands Links seems to do well way NE of Maine.