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David Stamm

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Spyglass Hill's routing
« on: April 14, 2008, 08:08:34 PM »
Ran's quote of RTJ's routing at SH found in the CPC Courses by Country section:

"In stark contrast to Robert Trent Jones' routing at nearby Spyglass Hill, the routing of Raynor and MacKenzie creates a superb progression, leading to the unequalled cliff top holes at the end of the round."


What say you? Many have said that the best holes are the first 5, and I would tend to agree, however, how would you have changed the routing? Is Ran correct? Or is it an unfair comparison because of the greatness of CPC?
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"The object of golf architecture is to give an intelligent purpose to the striking of a golf ball."- Max Behr

Bill_McBride

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Re: Spyglass Hill's routing
« Reply #1 on: April 14, 2008, 08:16:41 PM »
I have always thought RTJ could have simply reversed the routing, starting in the woods and finishing at the ocean.

If he could reverse the routing at Eugene CC, why not at Spyglass?!  :-\
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Adam Clayman

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Re: Spyglass Hill's routing
« Reply #2 on: April 14, 2008, 08:56:09 PM »
Ace McBride- That is not accurate. Reversng the routing still leaves you with four holes in the forest.
 The only way they could've fixed the routing, keeping the existing hole corridors, was to move the clubhouse.

My opinion is the seventh would've made a good starter, with #6 as the finisher. Then the ocean holes would've been the climax to the round.
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"It's unbelievable how much you don't know about the game you've been playing your whole life." - Mickey Mantle

David Stamm

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Re: Spyglass Hill's routing
« Reply #3 on: April 14, 2008, 09:08:25 PM »
Quote from: Adam Clayman on April 14, 2008, 08:56:09 PM

My opinion is the seventh would've made a good starter, with #6 as the finisher. Then the ocean holes would've been the climax to the round.

Adam, that sounds like it could work. BTW, is there a more understated clubhouse/proshop in the U.S than Spyglass? I'm sure there is, but it's amazing how small and simple SH's is. So it really wouldn't be that big a deal to move it, if one so choosed.
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"The object of golf architecture is to give an intelligent purpose to the striking of a golf ball."- Max Behr

Adam Clayman

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Re: Spyglass Hill's routing
« Reply #4 on: April 14, 2008, 09:37:31 PM »
David, Once 2016 hits who knows what will happen to that clubhouse. I'm recalling some plan to combine clubhouses, if and when the forest course ever gets built.

Technically, it's a pro shop with the NCGA clubhouse behind 9 and 18 green.
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"It's unbelievable how much you don't know about the game you've been playing your whole life." - Mickey Mantle

Kyle Henderson

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Re: Spyglass Hill's routing
« Reply #5 on: April 14, 2008, 10:07:57 PM »
Quote from: Adam Clayman on April 14, 2008, 08:56:09 PM
My opinion is the seventh would've made a good starter, with #6 as the finisher. Then the ocean holes would've been the climax to the round.

That was my exact thought when I finally saw SH during this years PGA Tour Event. The only real down side is that the current opening tee shot is such a great introduction.
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mike_beene

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Re: Spyglass Hill's routing
« Reply #6 on: April 14, 2008, 10:15:40 PM »
It is such a harsh transition.It would be better to have some holes play in both the forest and the dunes.Then maybe 7 or 8 holes could touch the dunes.Problem now is it is two courses.Number 1 is the only hole that is forest and dunes.
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Andy Troeger

Re: Spyglass Hill's routing
« Reply #7 on: April 14, 2008, 10:29:03 PM »
I thought the sixth hole made a reasonable transition back up the hill personally. That said I think Adam's solution would be the easiest to implement without changing things too much. I'm not sure why its so bad to start with great holes, it certainly gets you into your round quickly. The forest holes, while very different from the first five, aren't bad in their own right.
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mike_beene

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Re: Spyglass Hill's routing
« Reply #8 on: April 14, 2008, 10:34:04 PM »
Yes the forest holes are good,but 6 is the most depressing hole in golf because you can keep looking back to see what was. Remember Lot's wife.
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Andy Troeger

Re: Spyglass Hill's routing
« Reply #9 on: April 14, 2008, 11:02:06 PM »
I don't know I would have to think #18 at CPC is the more depressing, not only are you heading away from the ocean but you have to go home afterwards! :'(
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Bill_McBride

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Re: Spyglass Hill's routing
« Reply #10 on: April 14, 2008, 11:09:56 PM »
Quote from: Adam Clayman on April 14, 2008, 08:56:09 PM
Ace McBride- That is not accurate. Reversng the routing still leaves you with four holes in the forest.
 The only way they could've fixed the routing, keeping the existing hole corridors, was to move the clubhouse.

My opinion is the seventh would've made a good starter, with #6 as the finisher. Then the ocean holes would've been the climax to the round.

Just a general idea, Adam.  Start low key, finish in the best part of the property.  I guess your idea works.  It's the thought that counts!
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Tiger_Bernhardt

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Re: Spyglass Hill's routing
« Reply #11 on: April 14, 2008, 11:32:12 PM »
I actually think it is a great routing for a resort course. I understand the most scenic for the end like CPC. However I find Spyglass to be an outstanding test with the only question of change would be to move the clubhouse to the water and work up the hill and back down at the end.
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Adam Clayman

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Re: Spyglass Hill's routing
« Reply #12 on: April 14, 2008, 11:41:29 PM »
I'm not a proponent of making any change to the routing. But, if there was one, and climaxing with the ocean holes was the desire, finishing on #6 would be the least obtrusive. Finishing on #5 is likely impossible, but that goofy house sure would make an awesome clubhouse. Starting with a short par five #7 that suckers the player into going for it, would be a negative as it relates to pace.

With respect for RTJ's routing, the course has a certain flow to it that does make a lot of sense. With the majority of the holes in the forest, getting use to the differences from the early dunes land holes  to the forest with it's Swirling winds, elevation changes, green slopes etc. is the key to playing the course well, or, properly.
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Gordon Oneil

Re: Spyglass Hill's routing
« Reply #13 on: April 20, 2008, 01:11:20 AM »
Dudley Hart is a pal who actually documented his Spyglass struggles over the years during a Golf Channel interview during his near win there this year.
Talk about reverse routing...he once told me that Spyglass would be a much better course if you put the greens where the tees are and the tees where the greens are...
Actually makes sense on MANY of the inland holes...
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Adam Clayman

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Re: Spyglass Hill's routing
« Reply #14 on: April 20, 2008, 09:49:14 AM »
Gordon, To further the discussion... How the hell would that make a difference? I can't think of one hole where it would make a scintilla of a difference. Most greens are up high, as are the tees. Save for #10, 12 and 15.
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"It's unbelievable how much you don't know about the game you've been playing your whole life." - Mickey Mantle

Bill_McBride

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Re: Spyglass Hill's routing
« Reply #15 on: April 20, 2008, 10:17:08 AM »
Quote from: Adam Clayman on April 14, 2008, 08:56:09 PM
Ace McBride- That is not accurate. Reversng the routing still leaves you with four holes in the forest.
 The only way they could've fixed the routing, keeping the existing hole corridors, was to move the clubhouse.

My opinion is the seventh would've made a good starter, with #6 as the finisher. Then the ocean holes would've been the climax to the round.

If you reversed through the same corridors (a la Eugene CC), wouldn't you finish with an eighteenth hole that doglegged right with just the last part up into the forest?

I agree with your #7 - #6 routing as a good way to solve the issue, but you'd have to move the clubhouse!

I agree with your
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Adam Clayman

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Re: Spyglass Hill's routing
« Reply #16 on: April 21, 2008, 10:27:33 AM »
Bill, Reversing the first hole would climax nearer to the top of the steep hill and would be a torturous conclusion, imo. As an opener, it is thrilling, as it sweeps down and to the left. But, to answer your question, the trees (forest) starts much closer, if not at, the current first green. Six tee is in the trees and it's even farther down the hill.  When one crosses the road to the second tee, is approx. the start of the dunes land.
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"It's unbelievable how much you don't know about the game you've been playing your whole life." - Mickey Mantle

Bill_McBride

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Re: Spyglass Hill's routing
« Reply #17 on: April 21, 2008, 05:38:02 PM »
Quote from: Adam Clayman on April 21, 2008, 10:27:33 AM
Bill, Reversing the first hole would climax nearer to the top of the steep hill and would be a torturous conclusion, imo. As an opener, it is thrilling, as it sweeps down and to the left. But, to answer your question, the trees (forest) starts much closer, if not at, the current first green. Six tee is in the trees and it's even farther down the hill.  When one crosses the road to the second tee, is approx. the start of the dunes land.

How far is the clubhouse from the 6th tee?
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David Stamm

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Re: Spyglass Hill's routing
« Reply #18 on: April 21, 2008, 05:58:26 PM »
Quote from: Bill_McBride on April 21, 2008, 05:38:02 PM
Quote from: Adam Clayman on April 21, 2008, 10:27:33 AM
Bill, Reversing the first hole would climax nearer to the top of the steep hill and would be a torturous conclusion, imo. As an opener, it is thrilling, as it sweeps down and to the left. But, to answer your question, the trees (forest) starts much closer, if not at, the current first green. Six tee is in the trees and it's even farther down the hill.  When one crosses the road to the second tee, is approx. the start of the dunes land.

How far is the clubhouse from the 6th tee?


Bill, are you talking the proshop or the actual clubhouse (old NCGA headquarters)?
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"The object of golf architecture is to give an intelligent purpose to the striking of a golf ball."- Max Behr

Adam Clayman

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Re: Spyglass Hill's routing
« Reply #19 on: April 21, 2008, 08:08:32 PM »
Bill, I'll assume you mean the 7th tee and it is directly behind the left corner of the driving range. If you do in fact mean the 6th tee, it is probably some 700-800 yards away from the pro shop. The 7th tee is likely half that.

The trees extend closer to the water the further northeast one goes. Likely due to the way the coastline turns SW near Bird Rock.
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"It's unbelievable how much you don't know about the game you've been playing your whole life." - Mickey Mantle

Sean Leary

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Re: Spyglass Hill's routing
« Reply #20 on: April 21, 2008, 08:35:56 PM »
Starting on 9 would not have returning nines, but neither do PB and SB...

For non-architecture junkies, MANY prefer the inland  holes, probably because they are harder and more "traditional".
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Bill_McBride

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Re: Spyglass Hill's routing
« Reply #21 on: April 21, 2008, 08:56:01 PM »
Quote from: Adam Clayman on April 21, 2008, 08:08:32 PM
Bill, I'll assume you mean the 7th tee and it is directly behind the left corner of the driving range. If you do in fact mean the 6th tee, it is probably some 700-800 yards away from the pro shop. The 7th tee is likely half that.

The trees extend closer to the water the further northeast one goes. Likely due to the way the coastline turns SW near Bird Rock.

7th tee, sorry you're right.

I assume this is all just talk and there would never be such a re-routing!
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Tiger_Bernhardt

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Re: Spyglass Hill's routing
« Reply #22 on: April 21, 2008, 10:42:50 PM »
What is wrong with finishing with 1. Actually the current ocean holes with the exception of the downhill 3rd are world class and in my mind. I could see opening with 2 and closing with 1 and the clubhouse overlooking the ocean. I cannot see touching 2, 4, 5 or 6. Wow what great holes. I will miss you guys this week. I was out at Oly Club this weekend and the Bay area is special beyond worlds.
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