The 11th at ANGC

[BCrosby]

I spent a fair amount of time watching play at the 11th on Saturday.

The trees on the right now force play down what was once the extreme left side of the fw. Most players were looking at something like a 220 yard second shot. Tiger a bit less, others a bit more.

From that distance and at that angle - I'm trying to be polite - you are out of your freaking mind if you try for any pin in the middle or back of the green. Even with pins on the front of the green, most players seemed to bail out right. They are too far back and put at a very tough angle.

In short, the difficulty of the approach dictated by the new back tee and the new trees is now so extreme that no rational player would risk a shot at the pin.

That is, even with well executed shots the most exciting and interesting playing choice is now off the table.

Bob   

[JESII]

Bob,

I thought the left side of the fairway was the preferred angle to the main part of the green...back left corner notwithstanding. I thought the far right bailout was just that, a bailout that might give an angle to the back corner if the hole was there...even Jones said so in the Sports Illustrated piece Mark B dug up.

Also, what is wrong with the toughest hole on the course putting a long iron in the guys hands?

KJ holed a 5 iron from 220 a few years ago.

[Brent Hutto]

My thoughts were along JES's lines as well. The shot that Bob describes as a fool's errand I view as a extraordinary shot execution opportunity. I absolutely agree that a 220-230 yard shot from the far left to that green (with that pond lurking) is a hugely difficult one. But what makes the hole IMHO is the fact that getting up and down from the short-right bailout is extremely tricky but not totally impossible.

So you've got an approach shot that supremely difficult to most hole locations and with considerable risk involved due to the water. But with good execution it is within the capabilities of everyone in the field younger than Gary Player. You've got an obvious bailout opportunity in the classic wide-right chicken-out forearm clinch zone. Then a nervy little chip/pitch/putt whose difficulty is proportional to just how far from the green you bailed with a risk enforced by the very same water hazard.

As your "Toughest Hole on the Course" candidates go, that's a cracker! Yes, it is less "strategic" in the sense we use the term around here because you can no longer fit a tee shot out there to the right and open up a particular angle of approach for certain pin placements. But in the ground-level-truth meaning of "strategy" which has more to do with fine calibrations of ambition vs. execution of the actual, detailed shot it is a fine mental/emotional/physical challenge. The player has got to know their game at that moment in time to find the specific shot that optimizes their scoring chances while avoiding disaster. That's a cool kind of "strategy" for a major championship in my book.

[Matthew Rose]

I think it's too hard now. I think it would be more interesting at 470 or 480, where a really good drive might tempt you into going for that sucker pin.

I don't particularly enjoy watching the entire field aim at the 12th tee and hit it there.

[BCrosby]

Sully -

As I recall, Jones said you got a better view of the green from the left, but you want to approach the green from the right side (NLE) of the fw any time the pin is middle or back.

The 11th has always fascinatied me. I've made a point of watching play there for years. I can tell you that until the advent of the trees, Tiger, Love, Norman, most others (but not all) went right off the tee. Tiger used to hit it into the first cut on the slope way right and hit a lofted club down the spine of the green from there. And he went at all pins in all positions. Exciting stuff.

Adding length to the 11th was needed. It would be a fascinating hole if that is all that had been done. Adding the trees squelched that.

Bob

[BCrosby]

Brent -

The problem is that that shot is so hard that no one tries it. At least not on purpose. It is not an option a rational player would consider.

Which is the problem with the current hole.

Bob

[Phil McDade]

Bob:

Some other threads suggest a significant change to the bail-out area to the right of the green on 11, with the idea that those changes have prevented a sort of sling-shot running draw into the 11th green (a Redan-esque approach to the hole, to rip off Shivas' line from somewhere else).

Can you illuminate?

[Mark Bourgeois]

Sully

The tees in the past 10 years have been moved back and to the right twice.  And with those trees in there Jones's words in SI meant something completely different.  You can't take them and apply them to the current hole.  Jones's "left" and "right of center" meant something very different from today's configuration, at least in relation of the tee shot's resting place to the angle of the green.

If you look at the graphic of the hole today vs the one in the 1959 SI, it appears that Jones's ideal location of *right* of center in the fairway in 1959 today would be a good bit into the new trees.

Maybe the 1959 graphic and / or the one on the Masters site now are inaccurate. Does that sound like a creditable possibility?

Either way, today's hole dictates position A far more than 1959's hole did.  Options have been curtailed significantly.

Mark

[Brian_Ewen]

Last night Peter Alliss stated , he couldnt understand why everybody takes the aerial route in to the 11th green nowadays , putting the ball up where the wind is going to affect it the most .

Sam Torrance agreed and said that anytime he has played he 11th , he went down a couple of clubs and played a knockdown shot .

[JESII]

Mark,

Bob explained to me last week that the right option in Jones' piece was now likely within the trees...but it seemed to me that most hole locations were to be approached from the left center. As long as the left tree line has not changed, that position survives.

Agreed that the new trees now dictate play to one spot...and for you and me that may be bad...for the guys on TV, did they ever hit it up the left center during the late 90's early 2000's?

With short irons in their hands, there is no reward for taking on the risk with the drive of hitting it up the left side, a front right pin might be the only time...

I guess we can probably agree that the length has been fine, but the trees had a negative effect.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Bob,

I think the hole presents some unique challenges.

I always like hitting away from trouble, hence being on the left side of the fairway would SEEM ideal.

However, being on the right side negates any potential carries over water.

Shots hit short right would seem to rule out worse than a bogey, so underclubing, aiming right and trying to draw the ball without the dreaded pull would seem prudent.

I too like the dilemas that the hole presents.

And, I tend to agree that I'd like to see the right side of the fairway returned to its former width.

It's certainly a frightening approach in medal play.

[Mark Bourgeois]

One thought about that Choi 5 iron. I remember there was a flash of yellow - I mean the shaft looked yellow - and from that and the trajectory we all thought he'd hit a wood or hybrid.

I was really surprised that evening to learn it was a 5 iron. Not sure what that means other than as far as "5 irons" go, you'd probably need to call it something stronger to make a fair comparison to 1959.

And I am not saying the hole is too long - although that day I recall a steady diet of seeing not much other than the play Bob describes. Choi's execution obviously was perfect.

Mark

[JESII]

If my memory serves me (no guarantee...not even a betting favorite) it rolled 30 or 40 feet before plunking into the hole.

[PThomas]

anyone know what Hogan used to hit here when he used to miss the green on purpose??

[Philip Gawith]

Immelman birdied 11 on Thursday and Friday. Classy golfer!

[Brent Hutto]

And he made a hell of a par there on Sunday after an approach and pitch that were indifferent at best. Those three strokes he managed to find on that hole over the course of the week came in very handy at the end of the day.

[jeffwarne]

anyone know what Hogan used to hit here when he used to miss the green on purpose??

case closed, 17 myths left to debunk

[jeffwarne]

Immelman birdied 11 on Thursday and Friday. Classy golfer!

Those must've been accidents.

[PThomas]

anyone know what Hogan used to hit here when he used to miss the green on purpose??

case closed, 17 myths left to debunk

another fact:  in 1975 Jack hit a 1 iron from 242 to set up his 15footer for eagle

[jeffwarne]

anyone know what Hogan used to hit here when he used to miss the green on purpose??

case closed, 17 myths left to debunk

another fact:  in 1975 Jack hit a 1 iron from 242 to set up his 15footer for eagle

That's risk reward-the best driver of the era choosing to go for it and hitting 1 iron in his prime-not wedge

[Patrick_Mucci]

I don't believe the quote allegedly made by Hogan.

It's alleged that Hogan stated that he aimed right of the green.

Since Hogan's prefered flight was a fade, that would leave him far away from the green, facing a very dicey recovery toward the water, with a green that slopes down toward the water.

It would be interesting to view old films of The Masters to see where Hogan's approach shots landed.

I suspect his remarks might have been to tweak a reporter or hyperbole.