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Jason Topp

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Impressions from a first time Augusta visitor
« on: April 11, 2008, 11:01:52 AM »
  I really enjoyed going to the Tuesday practice round with Ryan Simper and a couple of Minneapolis friends.  Seeing a course in person sure gives a different impression than watching on TV.  Overall, I was surprised to learn that the advantage long hitters traditionally have enjoyed at the course has probably been reduced due to the added length and the positioning of the fairway bunkers.

1.   The course is incredibly long and yardage doesn’t really tell you how long.

2.   Number 1 is really uphill, 5 is really uphill off the tee,

3.   The fairways are still really wide.  With the exception of 7, I would guess most are 40 yards or more and some of the narrow ones have slopes keeping the ball in the fairway (such as 13).

4.   Fairway bunkers are interesting – almost no one can fly over them, there is an advantage to hitting near them, their position minimizes the advantage of long hitters but increases the advantage of accurate drivers willing to take a risk.

5.  Despite the width of the fairways, players use 3 wood off the tee at surprising times, like 5 to take the faiway bunkers out of play.

6.   I understand why Zach Johnson’s layup strategy might be a good one.  If you play the par 5's as 3 shot holes you can hit a 3 wood or driver to a 50 yard fairway off the tee without any risk, lay up a specific spot with no hazards within 25 yards of your target and then a wedge from a perfect angle. 

By contrast, watching players in practice rounds struggled tosqueeze drives around the corner on 13, to the right on 15, down the left edge on 2 and near the bunker without going in on 8. 


7.   Many greens are built on hillsides causing the break for which you see on television but cannot figure out why it is there  #3 is the example that immediately comes to mind but probably all of the greens with the exception of the 12th and 16th fit this description to some extent.

8.   Hight points on the course are 10 tee, 2 tee, 5 green, low points are 12 green and 16 green.  I believe the elevation drop is 200 feet from 10 tee to 11 green but I may have that wrong.

9.   Terrific stadium type course.  4-5 excellent vantage points to see multiple holes without the unnatural look of stadium golf.

10.   I can see why the place has greatly increased the cost of private club maintenance across the country.  The flowers are so beautiful and my first green committee meeting is April 15.  I could see many people headed into that meeting with a lot of beautification ideas.

11.   The course lacks the variety it used to have.  Oakmont last year showed the value of sprinkling in some short par fours into the course.  Shortening 7 would help a lot.

12.   It was unclear to me how much the trees on 15, 17 and 11 really hurt those holes but I did not get a great look at them.
 
13.  The course would be very playable and really fun for the average player from 6300 yards.  It would be driver/ 3 wood for nearly every amateur from the back tees.

jeffwarne

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Re: Impressions from a first time Augusta visitor
« Reply #1 on: April 11, 2008, 11:09:14 AM »
Great point Jason-esp. #7.
and 3 would be better if the bunkers were more centered or removed
"Let's slow the damned greens down a bit, not take the character out of them." Tom Doak
"Take their focus off the grass and put it squarely on interesting golf." Don Mahaffey

Phil McDade

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Re: Impressions from a first time Augusta visitor
« Reply #2 on: April 11, 2008, 11:11:15 AM »
Jason:

I, too, really liked the variety of esp. the par 4s at Oakmont. Would narrowing 7 further at Augusta sort of run contrary to the spirit/feel of the course? That hole was one of Nicklaus' favorite short par 4s in all of golf, and my sense is that the lengthening has made it dramatically more difficult. Is the only alternative narrowing it further (it's already been narrowed considerably from, say, mid-1980s)? Otherwise, I've read that -- with today's technology -- it might be a relatively simple 2-iron/wedge hole. I know that green from what I've read is really tough, and sits up from the fairway, but it's also surrounded by sand. Is there the kind of advantage at 7 to shortening it and tempting players to take driver, in the same manner as 17 or 2 at Oakmont?

Dan Boerger

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Re: Impressions from a first time Augusta visitor
« Reply #3 on: April 11, 2008, 11:17:46 AM »
Great points -- and also fully agree with your suggestion for hole 7. That green complex is best served with a shorter iron in. I understand how they wanted players to not hit driver, 8 iron into some par 5s but if they really want to protect a number,  slightly shorten 2 of the par 5s into 4s.
"Man should practice moderation in all things, including moderation."  Mark Twain

Brian Cenci

Re: Impressions from a first time Augusta visitor
« Reply #4 on: April 11, 2008, 11:18:22 AM »
Jason,
     I was there Tuesday as well.  Obviously the elevation changes are not as pronounced as on TV.  Some other thoughts of mine were that (as you said) the fairways were very wide.  The course to me really is the greens (similar to Pinehurst No. 2).  I also liked the access they gave you and the $1.50 beers.  Made a few comments at some players.  Thought it was hilarious Rory was playing by himself.
     One thing I didn't like was the look of the bunker on #10 in front of the green in the fairway.  I understand the reason for it being there but the general shape didn't fit in with the rest of the course.

-Brian

jeffwarne

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Re: Impressions from a first time Augusta visitor
« Reply #5 on: April 11, 2008, 11:22:44 AM »
Dan,
Why turn them into par 4's (which wouldn't protect a number, but rather only the number in relation to par) when you could preserve the integrity and design intent of them by simply lengthening them?
The trees on those holes don't really influence the driving decision, but often the outcome.

Kudos to them for taking the USGA way of turning par 5's into par 4's and maintaining the risk reward equation
"Let's slow the damned greens down a bit, not take the character out of them." Tom Doak
"Take their focus off the grass and put it squarely on interesting golf." Don Mahaffey

Phil Benedict

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Re: Impressions from a first time Augusta visitor
« Reply #6 on: April 11, 2008, 11:34:05 AM »
Great points -- and also fully agree with your suggestion for hole 7. That green complex is best served with a shorter iron in. I understand how they wanted players to not hit driver, 8 iron into some par 5s but if they really want to protect a number,  slightly shorten 2 of the par 5s into 4s.

Mickelson says that 7 changes the whole dynamic of the course.  In the past, even par thru 6 was fine, because 7 and 8 were birdie holes.  Now 7 is one of the hardest pars on the course, so even thru 6 doesn't feel so good.

tlavin

Re: Impressions from a first time Augusta visitor
« Reply #7 on: April 11, 2008, 11:39:13 AM »
Jason,
     I was there Tuesday as well.  Obviously the elevation changes are not as pronounced as on TV.  Some other thoughts of mine were that (as you said) the fairways were very wide.  The course to me really is the greens (similar to Pinehurst No. 2).  I also liked the access they gave you and the $1.50 beers.  Made a few comments at some players.  Thought it was hilarious Rory was playing by himself.
     One thing I didn't like was the look of the bunker on #10 in front of the green in the fairway.  I understand the reason for it being there but the general shape didn't fit in with the rest of the course.

-Brian

To each his own, but I love the bunker you're talking about on 10.  It reminds me of a couple centerline bunkers at Cypress Point.  I'm not sure on this architectural history here, but I seem to recall that the green was moved at some point and the bunker remained in place so it probably is more visual than strategic at this point in time.

Tim_Cronin

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Re: Impressions from a first time Augusta visitor
« Reply #8 on: April 11, 2008, 06:39:01 PM »
Terry's right. The green on No. 10 was originally right behind the big bunker, but was moved in 1937. The bunker is probably the last original MacKenzie bunker, unchanged all these years. Since it's 50-70 yards from the green, only members hit into it. But it looks neat.
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Gary Daughters

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Re: Impressions from a first time Augusta visitor
« Reply #9 on: April 11, 2008, 07:31:26 PM »

Jason,

Fine observations.  Whoever would have thought that lengthening Augusta National would serve as "Tiger proofing?" Certainly not me.
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Adam Clayman

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Re: Impressions from a first time Augusta visitor
« Reply #10 on: April 12, 2008, 11:58:40 AM »
Could someone better approximate the elevation change, from the top of #10 tee to the bottom of the property(12?)
At a fund raiser last night a guy who was there in '05 thought it 1400'. I knew that was ridiculous, so, I pulled up Jason's post and he's rather vague on his guesstimate of 200'.
"It's unbelievable how much you don't know about the game you've been playing your whole life." - Mickey Mantle

RJ_Daley

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Re: Impressions from a first time Augusta visitor
« Reply #11 on: April 12, 2008, 12:11:15 PM »
Adam, I think I heard 170' top to bottom of the entire property.  I can't remember where I remember that from, but probably a book or article.  It still sounds a bit much.  I also think Pat Mucci mentioned nearly 90' drop from tee to valley in front of green on 10.  I'd bet that it was 140 not 1400.  That seems very plausible. 

What is the ele range at Bally?  I'd guess about <120 not counting to the top of any peripheral dunes, just highest tee to lowest point of FW or through the greens.
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Adam Clayman

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Re: Impressions from a first time Augusta visitor
« Reply #12 on: April 12, 2008, 12:24:11 PM »
Dick, I don't know any of that technical mumbo jumbo regarding elevation change at BN. My eyes and feet tell me the drop from 2 tee to the floor on #4 could be in the 150' range. But again, I have no idea of the actual number. Maybe a little bird will tell me?
 
Lakota Canyon is a top ten in this regard. 1100' from top to bottom.

The gentleman who made the 1400' claim was adamant it was a significant downhill drop. On the telecast the other day someone said the rise on 18 fairway to the green is like a 4 story building. SO that's 40 feet.
"It's unbelievable how much you don't know about the game you've been playing your whole life." - Mickey Mantle

RJ_Daley

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Re: Impressions from a first time Augusta visitor
« Reply #13 on: April 12, 2008, 12:28:21 PM »
Adam, 120... 150?  What's an extra 30 feet when your having fun!  ;) :o ;D
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Lou_Duran

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Re: Impressions from a first time Augusta visitor
« Reply #14 on: April 12, 2008, 12:36:05 PM »
http://www.golf.com/golf/gallery/article/0,28242,1592131-5,00.html

According to the above, the answer is 175'.

Contrary to what another visitor noted, I thought that the elevation changes were much greater when viewed live than on television.  The pros seem to adapt to uneven lies very well.  I hate to think the skanks I'd hit from many of the fairways.

Patrick_Mucci

Re: Impressions from a first time Augusta visitor
« Reply #15 on: April 12, 2008, 08:31:57 PM »

Terry's right. The green n No. 10 was originally right behind the big bunker, but was moved in 1937. The bunker is probably the last original MacKenzie bunker, unchanged all these years. Since it's 50-70 yards from the green, only members hit into it. But it looks neat.

Tim,

The original green on # 10 was to the right of the original bunker complex.

Adam Clayman,

The elevation change from # 10 tee to the low point in # 10 fairway is over 100 feet.

Patrick_Mucci

Re: Impressions from a first time Augusta visitor
« Reply #16 on: April 12, 2008, 08:46:50 PM »

10.   I can see why the place has greatly increased the cost of private club maintenance across the country.  The flowers are so beautiful and my first green committee meeting is April 15.  I could see many people headed into that meeting with a lot of beautification ideas.

Why is that ANGC's fault.

"Monkey see, monkey do ?"

The Masters is held when the course is peaking.
Agronomic and maintainance practices are geared to put a best foot forward for the tournament and the telecast.

If a club attempts to emulate year round conditions for conditions that exist in Augusta, Georgia for a Major Tournament, for one lone week in the spring, then, they're the ones to blame, not ANGC
[/color]

11  The course lacks the variety it used to have. 

You must be kidding
[/color]

Oakmont last year showed the value of sprinkling in some short par fours into the course.  Shortening 7 would help a lot.

Did you skip the 3rd hole ?

How about the short par 5's at ANGC, did you miss them.

How do the par 3's at ANGC compare ?

Do you call 280+ yards a short par 3 ?  How about 240 ?

ANGC's par 3's are short by PGA Tour Standards
# 4 and # 6 are downhill
[/color]

13.  The course would be very playable and really fun for the average player from 6300 yards.  It would be driver/ 3 wood for nearly every amateur from the back tees.

The Members tees play to 6,365

The back tees were intended for the best players in the world.
If you're not one of them, you shouldn't be playing from those tees, especially from October to April.
[/color]


Jason Topp

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Impressions from a first time Augusta visitor
« Reply #17 on: April 12, 2008, 11:03:09 PM »

10.   I can see why the place has greatly increased the cost of private club maintenance across the country.  The flowers are so beautiful and my first green committee meeting is April 15.  I could see many people headed into that meeting with a lot of beautification ideas.

Why is that ANGC's fault.

"Monkey see, monkey do ?"

The Masters is held when the course is peaking.
Agronomic and maintainance practices are geared to put a best foot forward for the tournament and the telecast.

If a club attempts to emulate year round conditions for conditions that exist in Augusta, Georgia for a Major Tournament, for one lone week in the spring, then, they're the ones to blame, not ANGC
[/color]

  I did not assign fault.  I did note a likely causal relationship. [/color]



11  The course lacks the variety it used to have. 

You must be kidding
[/color]

  No, I am not. [/color]

Oakmont last year showed the value of sprinkling in some short par fours into the course.  Shortening 7 would help a lot.

Did you skip the 3rd hole ?

How about the short par 5's at ANGC, did you miss them.

How do the par 3's at ANGC compare ?

Do you call 280+ yards a short par 3 ?  How about 240 ?

ANGC's par 3's are short by PGA Tour Standards
# 4 and # 6 are downhill
[/color]




I would argue all of the par 4's play nearly identical effective distances: 1  (455), 5 (450), 7 (450), 9 (460), 10 (495 - downhill 7-10 stories), 11 (505 downhill 7-10 stories), 14 (440), 17 (440) and 18 (465).  The only par 4 that varies at all is 3.   

The 3's and 5's are ideal in my view.

[color]




13.  The course would be very playable and really fun for the average player from 6300 yards.  It would be driver/ 3 wood for nearly every amateur from the back tees.

The Members tees play to 6,365

The back tees were intended for the best players in the world.
If you're not one of them, you shouldn't be playing from those tees, especially from October to April.
[/color]


  What is the point of that comment other than to be extremely rude?  I simply appreciated how difficult the course is from the back tees.  [color]

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