News:

Welcome to the Golf Club Atlas Discussion Group!

Each user is approved by the Golf Club Atlas editorial staff. For any new inquiries, please contact us.


Mark Bourgeois

I. Cumulative play of the par 5s in Round 1
2 eagles = 0.5% of all scores on par 5s (1 eagle for every 200 par 5s played, or 1 eagle out of roughly every 50 rounds played)
126 birdies = 33.5%
208 pars = 55.3%
30 bogeys = 8.0%
9 double-bogeys = 2.4%
1 triple-bogey = 0.3%

So:
standard deviation of 0.22 strokes
scores within +/- 1 shot of par = 96.8% of all scores
birdies and pars = 88.8% of all scores


II. Distribution of scoring on back second nine in Round 1
No scores of 32 or lower = 0.0% of all scores
3 scores of 33 or lower = 3.2% of all scores
21 scores of 39 or higher = 22.3% of all scores
11 scores of 40 or higher = 11.7% of all scores

So:
11 scores of 32 or lower plus 40 or higher (i.e., +/- 4 strokes of par) = 11.7% of all scores
24 scores of 33 or lower plus 39 or higher (+/- 3 strokes of par) = 25.5% of all scores

88.3% of all scores within +/- 4 strokes of par
74.5% of all scores within +/- 3 strokes of par


Question
Are I and II distributions consistent with a risk-reward layout?

Mark
« Last Edit: April 11, 2008, 10:41:55 PM by Mark Bourgeois »

jeffwarne

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Risk-Reward at The Masters: First-Round Statistics
« Reply #1 on: April 11, 2008, 11:06:14 AM »
Let's see where they are after 4 days. ;)

the risk reward question is also not about how many eagles they make,
but rather how many times are they ENTICED to try to make the green in 2.
In my opinion that number got too high due to technology in the 90's.
Risk reward shouldn't be about which iron to hit into a par five
"Let's slow the damned greens down a bit, not take the character out of them." Tom Doak
"Take their focus off the grass and put it squarely on interesting golf." Don Mahaffey

Bill_McBride

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Risk-Reward at The Masters: First-Round Statistics
« Reply #2 on: April 11, 2008, 11:09:45 AM »
Risk reward par 5s are the 3 & 7 range of scores.

That's where those roars and groans come from, Jeff!  ;D  Does it really matter what shot they are hitting to the green as long as both 3 and 7 are in play?

jeffwarne

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Risk-Reward at The Masters: First-Round Statistics
« Reply #3 on: April 11, 2008, 11:15:19 AM »
Bill,
yes-because no matter how nasty the hazard is-a player would never consider laying up with an 8,9, iron or wedge.

The other way is simply penal architecture(i.e. no choice but to go for it), rendering those holes tough, penal par 4's,
..............as opposed to the great ,strategic, risk reward holes(i.e. there is a lot of choice with a long iron or wood in your hands) they were intended to be and were for 50 years.
"Let's slow the damned greens down a bit, not take the character out of them." Tom Doak
"Take their focus off the grass and put it squarely on interesting golf." Don Mahaffey

Bill_McBride

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Risk-Reward at The Masters: First-Round Statistics
« Reply #4 on: April 11, 2008, 11:16:41 AM »
What are they hitting into par 5s now?  I haven't seen any coverage yet?

jeffwarne

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Risk-Reward at The Masters: First-Round Statistics
« Reply #5 on: April 11, 2008, 11:23:49 AM »
more club ;D ;D


it's a bit soft so far
"Let's slow the damned greens down a bit, not take the character out of them." Tom Doak
"Take their focus off the grass and put it squarely on interesting golf." Don Mahaffey

BCrosby

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Risk-Reward at The Masters: First-Round Statistics
« Reply #6 on: April 11, 2008, 12:10:34 PM »
Mark -

Thanks. Those are very narrow scoring spreads. US Open type scoring spreads.

Only 2 eagles is an astonishing reduction from five or so years ago. (And one of those was a chip-in.) Equally astonishing is the lower number of bogeys and others on par 5's.

Under ideal conditions, those holes are being played much more conservatively. Many fewer low scores. Many fewer high scores.

Up in golf architecture heaven MacKenzie and Jones can't be very pleased.

Let's see if these trends continue.

Bob
« Last Edit: April 11, 2008, 12:42:14 PM by BCrosby »

Peter Pallotta

Re: Risk-Reward at The Masters: First-Round Statistics
« Reply #7 on: April 11, 2008, 12:19:20 PM »
Mark -

thanks. I watched a little, and Bob C seems right on.

A sidebar (sorry, don't know where else to put this). File it under the "What set-up changes actually do for the pros" file.  From an early week interview with Tiger Woods:

Q. I read the other day, Jack Nicklaus said, "I wish they would get rid of that rough up there." What rough is he talking about?

TIGER WOODS: The second cut, yeah, if you go out there, you'll see it. That's all you need to change this golf course. Shots, for instance, on No. 1, if you pull it up the left side it used to run straight to the pine needles and you had no shot. Now it has a chance to get caught up, pull tee shots down 2 can get caught up. It changes the speed of this golf course quite a bit. Shots on 10, if you don't turn it, used to land up the right and actually roll through the gallery down into the trees and now it can get caught up.

Q. That much rough makes that much difference?

TIGER WOODS: Mm hmm. (Nodding).

Yes. But was that the intended "difference"?

Peter

Mark Bourgeois

Re: Risk-Reward at The Masters: First-Round Statistics
« Reply #8 on: April 11, 2008, 12:24:15 PM »
Jeff, you're definitely right about it being only the first round. The distribution of scoring may well widen.

And you're right it's not about eagles, and yes of course it's about enticement.

But the enticemement isn't about going for it in two per se it's as Bill says about making eagle...or double.

The outcome of great risk-reward should be a wide distribution of scores.  For a golfer standing on the tee of a par 5, he must calculate some percentage reward of making eagle against the chance he will blow up.

Stats showing 96.8% of scores falling within +/- 1 shot of par don't look like any kind of spread.  That is not the outcome expected for a great risk-reward.  If lots of guys go for the par 5 in two and end up making birdie or par, then that's the same deal as lots of guys laying up and making birdie or par.

But forget about par -- it's about the distribution around a number. If everybody scores 3 or 4 or 5 then there's no risk-reward. It's not just that the eagles are too low but the doubles are, too.

I can see two potential flaws or caveats to the analysis:
1. It's Round 1.  Maybe ANGC wants to go USGA in the early rounds then make things easier down the stretch...they're not technically protecting par, but they're essentially doing the same thing -- protecting 16 under par or some other number.
2. Geezers pollute the data.  There's no risk-reward for them.  On the other hand, here's what Zach Johnson said before this year's tournament: "There's not much risk-reward for me here, so I just play my game and hopefully make some putts."  Considering that in 2007 he won with 33 percent more three-putts than any champion in the previous 10 Masters, someone adopting a risk-reward avoidance strategy is supposed to have no chance at victory.  2007 may prove anomalous however, just like Round 1 2008.

Mark

BCrosby

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Risk-Reward at The Masters: First-Round Statistics
« Reply #9 on: April 11, 2008, 12:26:27 PM »
Don't give it another thought Peter. Ron Whitten said that MacKenzie would be a-ok with the changes. So we shouldn't worry.

Bob

BCrosby

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Risk-Reward at The Masters: First-Round Statistics
« Reply #10 on: April 11, 2008, 12:28:53 PM »
Mark is correct.

The sign of a great strategic course, one that tempts players to take risks to obtain lower scores, is a spread of scores at both the high and low ends.

A tightly set up US Open course tends to have scoring bunched around par.

Bob

Kalen Braley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Risk-Reward at The Masters: First-Round Statistics
« Reply #11 on: April 11, 2008, 12:40:36 PM »
Mark,

I think it is best to wait for all 4 rounds as well, but not for the lone reason of having more data points.

Along with 1st round data comes 1st round mindset.  As Tiger always says, you can't win the tournament on the day one, but you sure can be out after the 1st day.  So if one has a questionable, in-between lie, I'm guessing they would be more apt to layup in round 1 as opposed to 3 or 4 where they have to make a move to get in contention or win.

tlavin

Re: Risk-Reward at The Masters: First-Round Statistics
« Reply #12 on: April 11, 2008, 01:21:07 PM »
Talk about all risk and no reward!  Calcavecchia just dumped two into Rae's creek on the 12th hole and then left a putt well short.  When he tried to fish a marker out of his pocket, he got frustrated and ripped a huge hole in his pants, spilling tees on the green.  He wound up with a 7 and flung the ball into the creek.  Great television.

Matt_Cohn

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Risk-Reward at The Masters: First-Round Statistics
« Reply #13 on: April 11, 2008, 01:24:12 PM »
Considering that in 2007 he won with 33 percent more three-putts than any champion in the previous 10 Masters...
Mark

You mean 4 instead of 3? Is that really a big deal?

John Kavanaugh

Re: Risk-Reward at The Masters: First-Round Statistics
« Reply #14 on: April 11, 2008, 01:37:08 PM »
Tiger has stolen the roars from all but old men.  Would you have roared for Steve Flesch today as he played the par 5's five under on way to 67?  This being the 11th year of Tiger's reign as champion has put the damper on cheering for anyone but him.  It's difficult to build vocal bravado on a foundation of false hope.

Brent Hutto

Re: Risk-Reward at The Masters: First-Round Statistics
« Reply #15 on: April 11, 2008, 01:46:07 PM »
Clubhouse leader Immelman's scorecard so far looks rather Zach Johnson-esque. His 8-under total has been achieved by being -1 on the Par 5's (a single birdie, on 15 yesterday), +1 on the Par 3's (his only bogey was on so far was on 6 today) and -8 for the 20 two-shotters he's played to this point.

He has birdied 5 (twice), 7, 9, 11 (twice!!), 17 and 18 over the first 36 holes. Hasn't the route to the top of the leaderboard at The Masters historically been through the Par 5's? Maybe I'm just cherrypicking a couple of fluke cases but there seems to be a valid way to go low of late without by forgoing eagles and avoiding bogeys on the long holes.

Does anyone know how many of Trevor's eight Par 5's have been layups thus far?

Jason Connor

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Risk-Reward at The Masters: First-Round Statistics
« Reply #16 on: April 11, 2008, 01:54:03 PM »
I. Cumulative play of the par 5s in Round 1
2 eagles = 0.5% of all scores on par 5s (1 eagle for every 200 par 5s played, or 1 eagle out of roughly every 50 rounds played)
126 birdies = 33.5%
208 pars = 55.3%
30 bogeys = 8.0%
9 double-bogeys = 2.4%
1 triple-bogey = 0.3%

This is great. Any data from say 1998 or 1988 to compare?   
We discovered that in good company there is no such thing as a bad golf course.  - James Dodson

Mark Bourgeois

Re: Risk-Reward at The Masters: First-Round Statistics
« Reply #17 on: April 11, 2008, 02:14:36 PM »
Jason,

Yes that's a good catch -- maybe the whole risk-reward equation didn't exist back then either.  I do wonder about that; whether it's been overstated all along and we were just buffaloed by what the pros and Bobby Jones used to say. (Although I can draw up a bevy of quotes from golfers who played in the tournament in the 1980s that speak to the risk-reward and especially all the decisions a golfer then had to make through a round -- I think one said most tournament courses demand tough decisions on 3-4 holes but at Augusta it was more like 13-14.)

But no I don't have the data -- how bout we delegate finding it to you!

Kalen

I would guess the most significant impact on the overall distribution likely would be the cut rather than Round 4 - it would be interesting to compare the distributions of scores for the cut vs the continuing groups.

The average score should be higher, but it would be interesting to see whether those cut suffered from a higher or lower variation of scores. I'd guess higher, because that's part of what it means to play worse.  It might be meaningful though if those cut produced a narrower distribution.  The implication would be it doesn't pay to play conservatively - or to lack the game enabling you to play the risk-reward game.

As to Round 4, maybe so but think about the play on the par 5s. Three groups of golfers: those like Zach Johnson whose strategy is independent of score or position (they will do the same thing every time), those who will take greater risks, and those who will take fewer.

It's not automatic that each player will take more (or less) risk just because we fix his position at XXth place in the tournament. It's player-specific. Very likely it's on the margin: most of the 60 or so are going to stand on those tees and use the same risk reward criteria they used in prior rounds.

So I think its reasonable to assume that the impact of all these decisions made by individuals when added up will minimize the impact. It might not be a wash, but it will probably mean less impact than commonly assumed. Remember, what we see on TV is NOT representative of the field!

All that said, and more to your point, perhaps we should just look at the distribution of scores of the top 10 - ie the play of everyone in the top 10 *at the time they play a par 5*.

Good luck, Kalen!

One other thought about Round 4 differing in terms of risk-reward: how much the current architecture and setup seems to limit the flexibility of the Committee. I mean, they can't build a new tee, chop down trees, or get rid of the rough Sunday morning, can they?

What I am saying is I think they retain some ability to lower or raise the average but have less ability to affect the distribution.  Why? It seems the design and setup don't do nearly as effective a job at what Bobby Jones called testing the temperament of the golfer.  By removing the range of decisions the golfer must think through, the architecture and setup reduce the impact of decision making during the round. That could narrow the distribution of results.

So what? On Sunday among that top 10 we might see a certain type of skewed distribution: lots of doubles but almost no eagles.  Certainly fewer than the number implied by the doubles made. In other words, a desperate lot who demonstrate there's risk without reward out there - just like the US Open!

Mark

Jason Connor

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Risk-Reward at The Masters: First-Round Statistics
« Reply #18 on: April 11, 2008, 02:21:16 PM »
I did a quick look for it.  I have the 1988 year book back at my parents house.

A collaborator of mine may have some of that data.  I'll check.  I see him tomorrow here in Florida, but he's away from home.  So I won't have the answer for a few days.


We discovered that in good company there is no such thing as a bad golf course.  - James Dodson

jeffwarne

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Risk-Reward at The Masters: First-Round Statistics
« Reply #19 on: April 11, 2008, 08:22:22 PM »
Mark -

Thanks. Those are very narrow scoring spreads. US Open type scoring spreads.

Only 2 eagles is an astonishing reduction from five or so years ago. (And one of those was a chip-in.) Equally astonishing is the lower number of bogeys and others on par 5's.

Under ideal conditions, those holes are being played much more conservatively. Many fewer low scores. Many fewer high scores.

Up in golf architecture heaven MacKenzie and Jones can't be very pleased.

Let's see if these trends continue.

Bob

Let's compare the data to 1934 tournament scores to find out what Jones and Mackenzie intended-certainly not 1998!
"Let's slow the damned greens down a bit, not take the character out of them." Tom Doak
"Take their focus off the grass and put it squarely on interesting golf." Don Mahaffey

Mark Bourgeois

Re: Risk-Reward at The Masters: First-Round Statistics
« Reply #20 on: April 11, 2008, 08:39:22 PM »
Jeff

You get the numbers and I'll run them!

All I could get off The Masters website are the final scores from 1934.  That shows four players finishing under par.  How's that compare to 2007?

Mark

jeffwarne

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Risk-Reward at The Masters: First-Round Statistics
« Reply #21 on: April 11, 2008, 08:54:17 PM »
Mark,
Google 1934 masters.
There's a fascinating article on Golfobserver by Bobby Jones analyzing what happened in 1934 vs. what was intended.
Anecdotally it supports your theory (at least in the case of Horton Smith-the winner)
"Let's slow the damned greens down a bit, not take the character out of them." Tom Doak
"Take their focus off the grass and put it squarely on interesting golf." Don Mahaffey

jeffwarne

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Risk-Reward at The Masters: First-Round Statistics
« Reply #22 on: April 11, 2008, 09:07:01 PM »
Oops,
one point for me.
Jones suggests that the 13th can be reached by the "aggressive man" with a brassie or spoon.

Which in my mind means Jones was OK with  mid and short irons NOT being the clubs in hand when weighing the "go for" decision. (common in 1995-2000)

Wonder how many would go for it today with a 3 wood as Jones is suggesting?

"Let's slow the damned greens down a bit, not take the character out of them." Tom Doak
"Take their focus off the grass and put it squarely on interesting golf." Don Mahaffey

jeffwarne

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Risk-Reward at The Masters: First-Round Statistics
« Reply #23 on: April 11, 2008, 09:20:01 PM »
I just saw Zach Johnson go for and reach 13 from 236! with a wood!
After laying up on all par 5's last year.
A decision!!!

Sorry but bold, careful choices and flawless execution make better golf in my opinion.
Playing that hole at the old length and watching him go for and reach 9 out of 12 times from 206 would be a nondecision and simply a tough penal par four.(and yes the scoring dispersion would be greater but not because of strategy)

Case closed for me---less exciting perhaps, more thoughtful, and more courageous.
And tests ones discipline as well.
Everything Jones and Mackenzie intended ;D
"Let's slow the damned greens down a bit, not take the character out of them." Tom Doak
"Take their focus off the grass and put it squarely on interesting golf." Don Mahaffey

Eric_Terhorst

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Risk-Reward at The Masters: First-Round Statistics
« Reply #24 on: April 11, 2008, 09:26:40 PM »
I wonder if this intelligent group of statistics experts would indulge me by reviewing a few more stats and answering a few questions?

First, please review the stats on the following web pages:

http://www.masters.org/en_US/history/records/alltimestats.html

http://www.masters.org/en_US/history/records/eagles.html#most_e_f_tourn

http://www.masters.org/en_US/history/records/scoring.html

What went on in 1974?  Why does that year stand out as having 1) 4 holes with low tournament scoring average records that still stand;  2) Bruce Crampton, a fireballing risk-rewarder iirc, who made the most eagles ever in one tournament by an individual--record still stands;  3) Maurice Bembridge (?) who shot the first-ever 4th round 64 (which by the way has been equaled several times but not since 1988—why?  No juicy risk-reward pin placements on Sunday since 1988 or ?)

Why are Ben Hogan, Nick Faldo, and Jim Furyk among the all-time birdie leaders with 22 birdies each in one tournament?  Because they hit it with precision or because they knew how to take advantage of the risk-reward equation that Augusta USED to offer, and apparently no longer does?

What was going on in the 1950s?  Scoring average highs were set on 10 holes in tournaments in the 50s that still stand!  Did I miss a earlier period in Augusta history when they had rough and trees?  289 was the winning score in ’56 and ’57, just like in ’07 when all the moaners and whiners—I mean learned commentators—said Augusta was irrevocably ruined.

Do you want to go back to the glory days of “roars” like 1991 when 18 “eagles” were scored at 15?  Or will you consider that 15 then was a par 4 masquerading as a par 5 and “eagle” is really a misnomer—shoulda been “birdie.”

I await your learned conclusions on these and any other wisdom you glean from Masters official statistics!