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Rich Goodale

Did Che Guevara invent the inverted CLAW (tm)?
« on: April 11, 2008, 08:49:03 AM »
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2008/apr/11/cuba.golfingholidays

To bring it back on topic, how about the main premise of the article--that Cuba will be a golf haven in the not so distant future?

RJ_Daley

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Re: Did Che Guevara invent the inverted CLAW (tm)?
« Reply #1 on: April 11, 2008, 09:59:38 AM »
Were those soft spiked combat boots?  Fun find Rich!  ;D
No actual golf rounds were ruined or delayed, nor golf rules broken, in the taking of any photographs that may be displayed by the above forum user.

Lou_Duran

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Re: Did Che Guevara invent the inverted CLAW (tm)?
« Reply #2 on: April 11, 2008, 02:06:17 PM »
My Dear Farnsworth,

Surely you recall a recent thread on this subject.  Or are you just being a provocateur a la BarneyF?

Other than the forbidden fruit attraction, what does Cuba have going for itself (no Dick, this is not an invitation to extoll its socialized healthcare system  ;) ) that's unique to the area and makes it a candidate for significant foreign investment?  How many Che posters and tee shirts must be sold to middle class and rich adolescents to provide a sufficient ROI?

I can see two major downsides to investment immediately: 1) prior unresolved claims to much of the real estate, and 2) an unstable, corrupt regime with a 50 year history of hostility toward profit, property rights, and golf in particular.  Though the top-heavy leadership will die off sooner rather than later and change is possible, the infrastructure of the country and the spirit of the people are all but destroyed. 

I am sure that a few expatriats in Miami would like to see more Canadian and European development money flow into the island.  While Fidel may have ordered the official deed records destroyed, many of the landowners whose properties were confiscated without compensation have excellent certified copies in their safes and are fully prepared to pursue their claims.  Life in the U.S. has been very good to most of these folks, and though they may not live to see the day when they can enjoy their property, their families have have the political and financial wherewithal to contest ownership of the land under newly built hotels and golf courses.  I've brokered a couple of land leases in my time and it is amazing how much more valuable a tract becomes when a Class A property sits on it.

Incidentally, Che does prove that the cross handed putting style is the most natural.  He also seems to choke down and gets close to his work, a common practice among good putters of that era who grew up on grainy bermuda greens.

One has to think that Che must have had something on Fidel (maybe copies of Fidel's  Swiss accounts as well as signature authority) as he somehow survived his victory over El Jefe.  His fellow hero of the revolution, the highly popular Comandante Camilo Cienfuegos, was not as lucky following a much minor, less public indiscretion (supposedly he was not a Marxist).  As far as I know, his body nor the plane wreckage was ever found in the Cuban jungles (or the sea depending on who is telling the story) where it "accidentally" disappeared, and I don't think I've ever seen a tee shirt gloriously depicting his revolutionary countenance.  Pity.  From what I've heard, Cienfuegos was at least mostly sane and motivated to build a more just society.

Mark_F

Re: Did Che Guevara invent the inverted CLAW (tm)?
« Reply #3 on: April 11, 2008, 05:40:20 PM »
the infrastructure of the country and the spirit of the people are all but destroyed. 

You mean like Iraq?

Pity, as Baghdad would have much to offer as a potential golf destination.  Construction costs would be low, as the bunkers have already been dug, and Tom Doak's theory on fairway landmines terrifying the better player could be tested out in a real world setting.

Jim_Kennedy

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Re: Did Che Guevara invent the inverted CLAW (tm)?
« Reply #4 on: April 11, 2008, 05:47:48 PM »
Sorry Rich, curly beat him to it!  ;D
 
"I never beat a well man in my life" - Harry Vardon

Lou_Duran

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Did Che Guevara invent the inverted CLAW (tm)?
« Reply #5 on: April 11, 2008, 07:34:01 PM »
the infrastructure of the country and the spirit of the people are all but destroyed. 

You mean like Iraq?

Pity, as Baghdad would have much to offer as a potential golf destination.  Construction costs would be low, as the bunkers have already been dug, and Tom Doak's theory on fairway landmines terrifying the better player could be tested out in a real world setting.

Huh?  Golf course construction in Cuba and Iraq are connected how?

You know Mark, a common acquaintance once remarked to me that you are a good bloke with a sad internet presence.  I try hard to give people the benefit of the doubt, but your antagonism is making this difficult.  If you disagree with my comments, why don't you address the issues and show me the error of my ways?

   

Mark_F

Re: Did Che Guevara invent the inverted CLAW (tm)?
« Reply #6 on: April 12, 2008, 02:05:23 AM »
You know Mark, a common acquaintance once remarked to me that you are a good bloke with a sad internet presence.  I try hard to give people the benefit of the doubt, but your antagonism is making this difficult.  If you disagree with my comments, why don't you address the issues and show me the error of my ways?

Lou,

A common acquaintance?  I am struggling to think who that may be.  Talk about six degrees of separation. 

Don't worry, I am a good bloke, although I am miffed at being called a sad internet presence.  I doubt that you are as gung ho and right wing in person as you appear in cyberspace.  You couldn't possibly be, or you would be running News Corporation.

How do you know that the spirit of the people is all but destroyed?  That's a pretty strong statement to make.  I am sure many Cubans are in despair - but that isn't to say that millions of Americans - and Australians, especially Carlton FC supporters - aren't equally as despairing, which makes them far worse off, as we are, apparently, First World countries.

And if their spirit has been destroyed, I am sure significant foreign investment that was only concentrating on making as much money for its principals as possible, without any interest in the country itself, isn't going to improve.

Rich Goodale

Re: Did Che Guevara invent the inverted CLAW (tm)?
« Reply #7 on: April 12, 2008, 06:56:37 AM »
Sorry Rich, curly beat him to it!  ;D
 


Not so sure, Jim.  Looks more like a broomhandle up the armpit to me.....

Sean_A

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Re: Did Che Guevara invent the inverted CLAW (tm)?
« Reply #8 on: April 12, 2008, 08:03:16 AM »
And if their spirit has been destroyed, I am sure significant foreign investment that was only concentrating on making as much money for its principals as possible, without any interest in the country itself, isn't going to improve.

Not to mention the fact that the US has actively tried to destroy the spirit of the country - especially during the 60s.  The list of things the US did to Cuba reads like a rap sheet for many basketball players.  We have played Cuba dirty and they are still around.  Perhaps the people of Cuba will rise above Fidel and the US in their good time. 

Ciao
New plays planned for 2024:Winterfield & Alnmouth,

Lou_Duran

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Did Che Guevara invent the inverted CLAW (tm)?
« Reply #9 on: April 12, 2008, 02:20:35 PM »
Mark,

It is a very small world.  And no, I am not right wing at all.   I am a libertarian 99% through and through, with a strong laissez faire orientation.  I don't have any interest at all in telling you how to live your life and, for the most part, reject forcefully any claim that you think you might have in prescribing how I should lead mine.

As to my knowledge of the condition of the Cuban spirit, I know through the first hand accounts told to me by numerous people who've left the island in the past 20 years; through my mother's observations based on two lengthy visits she made to take scarce over-the-counter medicines, hygiene supplies, toiletries, and money to needy acquaintances; and through my own extensive reading of materials from a variety of sources.  Much stronger evidence than words, spoken or written, are the actions of the thousands of Cubans who take to the perilous, shark-infested seas in the skimpiest of vessels and rafts to get the hell out of that socialist utopia.

Cuba was once a place where immigrants from all over the word flocked to start a new life.  Pre-Castro, it was the jewel of the Caribbean, and a magnet for foreign investment.  As is true in America today, anyone with any wits about them who was motivated to work hard and make a good life for themselves and their families did exceedingly well in Cuba back then.  It had a sizable middle class as evidenced by the wide availability of all types of consumer goods including the newest American automobiles and Hollywood movies.

Today, would it not for Chavez's petroaid and the remittances of expatriats to their relatives on the island, the place would be in sub-Saharan type destitution.  Its GDP is but a small fraction of what it was in the 1950s.  Perhaps the present golf scene in Cuba is a proxy for the overall devolution of that society.  Instead of three excellent golf courses in the 1950s, it now has but one pedestrian, mostly empty resort course and a 9-holer that doesn't even bother to place a pin on the holes.

Sean Arble,

Please!  What is it that you studied at Michigan?  Political science or public administration?  Perhaps I unjustifiably generalized my respect for the "school up north" based on its athletic prowess.

Cuba is "still around" simply because for the first twenty years or so, a small minority with the full support of the mighty Soviet military was able to control its population under the force of the gun.  You pissed Fidel, Raul, Che or any of their minions off and, if you were lucky, you'd be shot.   Others were thrown tortured but alive into the well (sea outlet) at El Morro de Havana or sent to prisons (and I am not talking about the Holiday Inn at Guantanamo) to rot.  Fidel had excellent mentors in Hitler, Stalin, and Mao.  The Gustapo had nothing on his secret police and neighborhood security apparatus, and the fear of the people remains palpable to this day.

The effect of nearly three generations of communist propaganda and indoctrination of the people is an open question.  It will likely be answered once Fidel's cadre departs this world to their just rewards.  I can see them fighting tooth-and-nail to the bitter end.  Based on the post Cold War experience in eastern Europe, I remain hopeful that the yearning for freedom and liberty has not been bred out of young Cubans, but is only in deep sleep to be awakened soon.  Perhaps then, as part of a new overall start, golf can play a positive role.     

Sean_A

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Did Che Guevara invent the inverted CLAW (tm)?
« Reply #10 on: April 12, 2008, 07:45:22 PM »
Mark,

It is a very small world.  And no, I am not right wing at all.   I am a libertarian 99% through and through, with a strong laissez faire orientation.  I don't have any interest at all in telling you how to live your life and, for the most part, reject forcefully any claim that you think you might have in prescribing how I should lead mine.

As to my knowledge of the condition of the Cuban spirit, I know through the first hand accounts told to me by numerous people who've left the island in the past 20 years; through my mother's observations based on two lengthy visits she made to take scarce over-the-counter medicines, hygiene supplies, toiletries, and money to needy acquaintances; and through my own extensive reading of materials from a variety of sources.  Much stronger evidence than words, spoken or written, are the actions of the thousands of Cubans who take to the perilous, shark-infested seas in the skimpiest of vessels and rafts to get the hell out of that socialist utopia.

Cuba was once a place where immigrants from all over the word flocked to start a new life.  Pre-Castro, it was the jewel of the Caribbean, and a magnet for foreign investment.  As is true in America today, anyone with any wits about them who was motivated to work hard and make a good life for themselves and their families did exceedingly well in Cuba back then.  It had a sizable middle class as evidenced by the wide availability of all types of consumer goods including the newest American automobiles and Hollywood movies.

Today, would it not for Chavez's petroaid and the remittances of expatriats to their relatives on the island, the place would be in sub-Saharan type destitution.  Its GDP is but a small fraction of what it was in the 1950s.  Perhaps the present golf scene in Cuba is a proxy for the overall devolution of that society.  Instead of three excellent golf courses in the 1950s, it now has but one pedestrian, mostly empty resort course and a 9-holer that doesn't even bother to place a pin on the holes.

Sean Arble,

Please!  What is it that you studied at Michigan?  Political science or public administration?  Perhaps I unjustifiably generalized my respect for the "school up north" based on its athletic prowess.

Cuba is "still around" simply because for the first twenty years or so, a small minority with the full support of the mighty Soviet military was able to control its population under the force of the gun.  You pissed Fidel, Raul, Che or any of their minions off and, if you were lucky, you'd be shot.   Others were thrown tortured but alive into the well (sea outlet) at El Morro de Havana or sent to prisons (and I am not talking about the Holiday Inn at Guantanamo) to rot.  Fidel had excellent mentors in Hitler, Stalin, and Mao.  The Gustapo had nothing on his secret police and neighborhood security apparatus, and the fear of the people remains palpable to this day.

The effect of nearly three generations of communist propaganda and indoctrination of the people is an open question.  It will likely be answered once Fidel's cadre departs this world to their just rewards.  I can see them fighting tooth-and-nail to the bitter end.  Based on the post Cold War experience in eastern Europe, I remain hopeful that the yearning for freedom and liberty has not been bred out of young Cubans, but is only in deep sleep to be awakened soon.  Perhaps then, as part of a new overall start, golf can play a positive role.     

Lou

You can wave the flag for as long and vehemently as you like.   However, whether or not you or the US approves of a certain form of politics is not what I was referring to.  I pointed out that unofficial and official US policy toward Cuba has been far less than above board and it is a certain guarantee that we don't know the half of it.  Apparently, there is a line which divides our opinion on politics and I tend to err on the side of staying out of the business of other countries.  Its called live and let live.   

Ciao 
New plays planned for 2024:Winterfield & Alnmouth,

Jim_Kennedy

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Did Che Guevara invent the inverted CLAW (tm)?
« Reply #11 on: April 12, 2008, 09:42:48 PM »


Rich,
Your interpretation of this photo is just more propaganda fostered by the Right-hand.

Che could only have been a Leftie, and he whiffed the putt to keep Fidel happy.
"I never beat a well man in my life" - Harry Vardon

Mark_F

Re: Did Che Guevara invent the inverted CLAW (tm)?
« Reply #12 on: April 13, 2008, 01:42:25 AM »
I am a libertarian 99% through and through with a strong laissez faire orientation.  I don't have any interest at all in telling you how to live your life and, for the most part, reject forcefully any claim that you think you might have in prescribing how I should lead mine.

Lou,

Isn't a libertarian just an anarchist in drag? A cohesive society must obey some form of rule and behaviour, and the very unravelling of society that we see now is due to the perverted form of individualism that has percolated through society in the last couple of decades. 

Otherwise people would be freely hitting golf balls at Hawks and Turtles, wouldn't they?

As to my knowledge of the condition of the Cuban spirit, I know through the first hand accounts told to me by numerous people who've left the island in the past 20 years; through my mother's observations based on two lengthy visits she made to take scarce over-the-counter medicines, hygiene supplies, toiletries, and money to needy acquaintances; and through my own extensive reading of materials from a variety of sources.

So all of your information is secondhand, since even your mother's recollections are filtered through her own particular viewpoint? And "Soldier of Fortune" or Fox News don't count as a variety of sources. :)

I also have trouble believing that Cubans don't have ready access to toiletries and hygiene supplies, although if it spares them Tampon commercials, then it probably isn't a bad thing, and good on your mum.

Much stronger evidence than words, spoken or written, are the actions of the thousands of Cubans who take to the perilous, shark-infested seas in the skimpiest of vessels and rafts to get the hell out of that socialist utopia.

Sorry Lou,  but this is a ridiculous analogy.  Weren't thousands of those making that perilous journey criminals?  It is presumably much easier, and safer, to become a major narcotics trafficker in the USA than Cuba, since, as you pointed out, you would get shot in Cuba, whereas in the USA they make movies about you.

People emigrate for a variety of reasons.  The British come to Australia because there is more room - although not for much longer - and sun; New Zealanders come so they can bludge off our social security system, and Asians come because the USA is already full of Cubans.  Cubans presumably go to the USA because it is a lot closer than Norway, and has better weather.  Indonesians used to paddle across the ocean to Australia in rickety, leaking vessels for the same reason. 

I have no doubt, though, that the vast majority of third world people making the perilous journey to the USA do so for one simple reason - they want to appear on TV.  They surely believe that if David Hasselhoff can make it, anyone can.

Perhaps you are correct, though.  Cuba will one day break free from its socialist shackles and become another shiny beacon of Capitalism, with a massive divide between rich and poor, consuming vast amounts of resources in a fanatical desire to match the Lopezes next door, ignore the toxic clouds of pollution that grow darker every hour, and revel in hedonistic individualism, abandoning any concept of caring for their fellow man as they run them down in their customized Hummer.

Still, at least we will have Trump International  at Havana to convince us we know best.






James Bennett

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Re: Did Che Guevara invent the inverted CLAW (tm)?
« Reply #13 on: April 13, 2008, 06:29:47 AM »
Lou,

A common acquaintance?  I am struggling to think who that may be.  Talk about six degrees of separation. 

Don't worry, I am a good bloke, although I am miffed at being called a sad internet presence.  I doubt that you are as gung ho and right wing in person as you appear in cyberspace.  You couldn't possibly be, or you would be running News Corporation.

How do you know that the spirit of the people is all but destroyed?  That's a pretty strong statement to make.  I am sure many Cubans are in despair - but that isn't to say that millions of Americans - and Australians, especially Carlton FC supporters - aren't equally as despairing, which makes them far worse off, as we are, apparently, First World countries.

And if their spirit has been destroyed, I am sure significant foreign investment that was only concentrating on making as much money for its principals as possible, without any interest in the country itself, isn't going to improve.

Mark

I advised Lou that you are a good bloke.  I am glad that you agree with that opinion.  Others can form their own opinion on your internet personae.

An Adelaide-born lad runs News Corp!

I am not sure that Carlton supporters are in despair today (although I thought that was a good attempt at levity).

And, I expect Lou will not be offended by your posts.  He may well ignore them, but that is for him to decide.  I think you have played the man a bit in some of your posts above and have taken your eye off the ball.  You are better than that.

James B
Bob; its impossible to explain some of the clutter that gets recalled from the attic between my ears. .  (SL Solow)

Mark_F

Re: Did Che Guevara invent the inverted CLAW (tm)?
« Reply #14 on: April 13, 2008, 07:58:39 AM »
An Adelaide-born lad runs News Corp!

I had forgotten that.  It explains everything.

And, I expect Lou will not be offended by your posts.  He may well ignore them, but that is for him to decide.  I think you have played the man a bit in some of your posts above and have taken your eye off the ball.  You are better than that.

I should hope he isn't offended.  He must have very soft, luxuriant, well moisturised skin if he is.   Clearly all of those toiletries did not make their way to Cuba as stated.


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