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jeffwarne

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Augusta National has it right
« on: April 11, 2008, 08:16:33 AM »
So we hear many commentators, players and participants on this site lament the fact that there are no roars at Augusta and that there is a lot less "ebb and flow", just a "lot of ebb".

A glance at the scores would indicate they've simply brought the course back to historical norms and "shot values".

I wasn't around Augusta prior to to 1973, but in the 70's and 80's VERY few ever got near # 8 in two shots.(Bruce Devlin's 2 notwithstanding) By the late 90's early 2000's IRONS were regularly used there for the second shot.And the most consecutive run of sub 280 scores was in the 90's.

Aside from #7, where the demands and character of the hole have changed dramatically, I would say distancewise they've gotten it right. I heard several players lamenting having to hit long irons into par 4's.
 I don't think Jack Nicklaus (one of the greatest long iron players in history and the greatest driver) was ever shocked when he had to hit a long iron into a par 4 (it just meant his contempoaries were hitting a wood ;D)

It's great to see a course restored to shot lengths and demands of years past without resorting to water, tall grass, and OB like so many modern courses.
The players are asked to play demanding shots and to miss it it properly yet are allowed to rear back and crush it without all the nonsense we see on so many modern venues.

Granted I could do without the round fake pine beds (what's up with that) around the
isolated pines, and I loved the old majestic look of the wide open spaces now littered with silly pines, and I'd prefer to see all fairway so the ball bounds into trees but those are small details not really affecting the player who is playing well, and not really entering the decision process.
These are simply aesthetics to me and will/are probably fade as fads dictate.

I just think people and player's memories of constant  roars and eagles date mostly to the late 90's when the course was virtuallly the same length as it was in 1934 and equipment had rendered a course once considered quite long,  very short.

Kudos to them for not jumping on the US Open tactic of six inch rough and eliminating reachable par fives and simply reducing par. The USGA seems more concerned with PROTECTING par then preserving original shot demands.
What's next? shortening driveable par 4's to par 3's.

The other thing with AGNC is they have realistically recognised that there's a more massive difference these days between pros and amateurs due to ability and equipment, and the tees reflect that.
Additionally, much of the members play occurs in fall (on newly overseeded), winter, and early spring conditions, where the course is soft and the air can be quite cold.
A 45-50 year old 5 handicapper playering the 1000 yard shorter member tees in January is probably playing similar length shots as a professional in the Masters from the back tees.

I for one thoughoughly love seeing the "risk" back in risk reward, but can't stand seeing the steady diet of water everywhere in the driving zone on a typical TPC/tour course.

Augusta is still a very wide course, and is not overly taxing for members-until they reach the greens.
« Last Edit: April 11, 2008, 08:35:36 AM by jeffwarne »
"Let's slow the damned greens down a bit, not take the character out of them." Tom Doak
"Take their focus off the grass and put it squarely on interesting golf." Don Mahaffey

Patrick_Mucci

Re: Augusta National has it right
« Reply #1 on: April 11, 2008, 08:54:05 AM »
Jeff,

You may remember, when Tiger first won, that he never hit more than a 7-iron into any par 4.

Some of those holes were intended to force long iron play, not medium to short irons.

The game of the best players in the world is so radically different from where it was in 1999, 1989, 1979 due to hi-tech and the distance issue.

I'd rather see a competitor hit a wood or long iron into # 13 and # 15 as opposed to an 8-iron.  I like seeing the elements of doubt and risk/reward reinserted on those holes and others.

I'm not an advocate of driver - wedge on par 4's and par 5's.
I'd rather see a great diversity in approach shots.

Bill_McBride

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Augusta National has it right
« Reply #2 on: April 11, 2008, 09:02:49 AM »
I think the roars we all cherish come from the risk reward nature of the back nine with the two reachable par 5s.  The swings in scoring can be dramatic, leading to roars and groans.

"Hold all my calls, it's Masters Sunday!"  ;D ;D

jeffwarne

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Augusta National has it right
« Reply #3 on: April 11, 2008, 09:05:58 AM »
Patrick,
Exactly.
With no ball rollback in sight, an annual tournament venue like Augusta has the luxury of simply enlarging the playing field (not withstanding the silly trees).

Sadly, when we see Opens given to courses, the measures taken to "protect par", seem to remain long after the tournament leaves--example: Bethpage and its' rediculous deep rough and narrow corridors for everyday play.
I doesn't matter how deep the rough is to the guy bombing it long and straight the week of the tournament.
But it completely, disproportionately  sucks the fun out for a player not driving it perfectly.
"Let's slow the damned greens down a bit, not take the character out of them." Tom Doak
"Take their focus off the grass and put it squarely on interesting golf." Don Mahaffey

Adam Clayman

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Augusta National has it right
« Reply #4 on: April 11, 2008, 09:10:17 AM »
I totally disagree about any restoration of shot values. The second cut alone, has reduced the unpredictability of where one's ball might end up. Therefore negating many imaginative recoveries, while placing less of an emphasis on shot shape.
"It's unbelievable how much you don't know about the game you've been playing your whole life." - Mickey Mantle

jeffwarne

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Augusta National has it right
« Reply #5 on: April 11, 2008, 09:17:35 AM »
Bill,

When Tiger(and worse yet others) was hitting 3 wood 9 iron to 13 and driver wedge to 15,
the risk was taken out of risk reward.
They're still reachable, just not automatic FOR THE FIELD.

If Chip Beck (who faced 249 into 15 in the early 90's when that was a significant distance and laid up) had faced that hole and situation in say 2002, it would've been 219 and he could've hit 4/5 iron or hybrid WITH NO DECISION and might have had an entirely different career path.

Ray Floyd made a 5 wood cool in 1976 by successfully using it many times on the par 5's.
At the pace we were going, the gap wedge was going to be made cool by a player's use of it as a second shot tool on par 5's.

"Let's slow the damned greens down a bit, not take the character out of them." Tom Doak
"Take their focus off the grass and put it squarely on interesting golf." Don Mahaffey

jeffwarne

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Augusta National has it right
« Reply #6 on: April 11, 2008, 09:22:20 AM »
Adam,
I'm merely referring to the length.
I'm no fan of the second cut.
I used to love jockeying for position and watching the creative recoveries out of the pine straw.

And the rough has taken away a few angles (but has made spectating a bit safer ;D)so you're right about some of the shot values.

I wouldn't be surprised to see the rough go away eventually (again).

"Let's slow the damned greens down a bit, not take the character out of them." Tom Doak
"Take their focus off the grass and put it squarely on interesting golf." Don Mahaffey

Phil Benedict

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Augusta National has it right
« Reply #7 on: April 11, 2008, 09:24:20 AM »
Not necessarily relevent but Tiger doesn't like it very much.  In his post-round interview he said "you can't shoot low scores around here anymore" and said it feels more like the US Open.

The weather was about as benign as possible yesterday but nobody went really low.  Course is playing soft but long.

Scoring improved quite a bit at Augusta in the '90's, before the modern 3-piece ball and spring-like effect.  Tiger shot 18-under with a wound ball and a driver with about 60% of the mass of his current driver.

jeffwarne

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Augusta National has it right
« Reply #8 on: April 11, 2008, 09:34:34 AM »
Tiger's early experiences as a professional with Augusta occurred with him as the longest driver on tour using 1997 technology on a 1934 length golf course.
The Tour Professional ball (the next generatioanl jump after the 384 of the 80's )was WAAAAY hotter than the ball Jack and the boys were using in the 60's and 70's.

Yes, it's harder to score when par's not 68 anymore and he encounters risk in the risk reward equation.
Justin Rose and the boys didn't have any problem ;D
"Let's slow the damned greens down a bit, not take the character out of them." Tom Doak
"Take their focus off the grass and put it squarely on interesting golf." Don Mahaffey

rjsimper

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Augusta National has it right
« Reply #9 on: April 11, 2008, 09:51:33 AM »
Is the current length of the "second cut" the same as when it was originally introduced?  That seems like a detail that, if they wanted, they could conveniently neglect to mention.

Phil Benedict

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Augusta National has it right
« Reply #10 on: April 11, 2008, 10:03:31 AM »
Jeff,

Your point about the Titleist Professional ball is a good one although the uproar over technology didn't kick into high gear until the ProV1.

It also worthwhile to note that Tiger shot 65/66 and birdied something like 15 out of 31 holes in 2005, which was essentially the same course they are playing this year.  Maybe he just likes to complain.

Tom Birkert

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Augusta National has it right
« Reply #11 on: April 11, 2008, 10:41:30 AM »
I caught a bit of the Masters 1997 review earlier today and they did a comparison of irons that Woods hit into several of the holes and compared that to irons Nicklaus hit into the same greens in 1965 (I think).

With the exception of the 2nd they were pretty similar (one / two clubs at most). If they re-run the show I will post up the comparison.

jeffwarne

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Augusta National has it right
« Reply #12 on: April 11, 2008, 11:00:55 AM »
Phil,
You're right-very similar clubs and Jack wasn't long with his irons.
That prompted Jones to give his famous "he plays a game with which I am not familiar"

However,
Despite Tiger's scoring barrage in 1997,second place wasn't that low. That's not when the changes were imlemented-although many call it Tigerproofing and certainly that could've neen the genesis of that thinking. (who knows on that one)
It was more post ProV1(2001 and 2002) , but certainly the steady progression in distance due to ball technology since the 70's prompted the eventual changes.

Also conditions change EVERY YEAR.
The following year after Nicklaus shot the record 271,he tied for first at 289.
"Let's slow the damned greens down a bit, not take the character out of them." Tom Doak
"Take their focus off the grass and put it squarely on interesting golf." Don Mahaffey

Paul_Turner

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Augusta National has it right
« Reply #13 on: April 11, 2008, 11:08:27 AM »
There's about 20 yard gain in driving distance between now and 1997.  About 30 yards from 1985 to now.
can't get to heaven with a three chord song

tlavin

Re: Augusta National has it right
« Reply #14 on: April 11, 2008, 11:42:52 AM »
Not necessarily relevent but Tiger doesn't like it very much.  In his post-round interview he said "you can't shoot low scores around here anymore" and said it feels more like the US Open.

The weather was about as benign as possible yesterday but nobody went really low.  Course is playing soft but long.

Scoring improved quite a bit at Augusta in the '90's, before the modern 3-piece ball and spring-like effect.  Tiger shot 18-under with a wound ball and a driver with about 60% of the mass of his current driver.

Phil,

The course may firm up and give the players some more roll in the fairways as the weekend progresses.  The greens, obviously, will firm up as well.  I don't know if Tiger is just commenting or complaining about the set up, but there did seem to be some lament in his tone.  For anybody who wants to hear the symphonic whining of Augusta (as redone), I advise that you go to Shackelford's site or to Golfdigest.com where he has an Augusta blog.  Or an Augusta broken record (and I don't mean scoring).

Jim Nugent

Re: Augusta National has it right
« Reply #15 on: April 12, 2008, 01:44:44 PM »
It also worthwhile to note that Tiger shot 65/66 and birdied something like 15 out of 31 holes in 2005, which was essentially the same course they are playing this year.  Maybe he just likes to complain.

I'm pretty sure they made the course longer and added more trees since then.  His average driving distance sure is way down: in the 280's last year and so far this year.   

Patrick_Mucci

Re: Augusta National has it right
« Reply #16 on: April 12, 2008, 08:04:24 PM »
Is the current length of the "second cut" the same as when it was originally introduced?  That seems like a detail that, if they wanted, they could conveniently neglect to mention.

Ryan,

It's either 1 5/8ths or 1 3/8ths, which is relatively benign.

The notion that there was NO rough at ANGC when it opened, is incorrect.

There was a good deal of rough, and I'd imagine that it was higher than
1 5/8ths or 1 3/8ths.

It would appear that the pros are able to get adequate spin from the first cut.

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