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Brian Cenci

Well, just concluded another golf odyessy across a portion of this great Country down to The Masters and back.  Once again, Dave Neveux and I loaded up our sticks and played our way there and back.  Again, it wasn't really a vacation, more of a golf then drive 4 hours trek.  Here's just a few thoughts of mine on the courses we played.  If I sound like they were all good its because they reallly were.  I would have a hard time picking a favorite as I liked different aspects of 5 or 6 of them a lot.

* Oakmont - Not much to say other than the course is really around the greens.  Great variety of holes and expecially short par 4's.  Greens were double punched which affected the playability but we had to course all to ourselves.  There is more elevation out there than appears on TV as well.  A true classic to play...the type of course that you would want to keep tackling each and every day with those greens.

* Pete Dye GC - What a great course.  Just as good as any Pete Dye course I've played (Ocean Course, Whistling Straits, Blackwolf Run, Honors Course).  A lot of dramatic features and elevation changes on the course.  A tremendous piece of property for a course.  The first par 5 (I think #5) on the front is just an oustanding hole.  We were the first round of the year out there and had the course to ourselves.

* Independence GC - A Fazio layout near Richmond.  Overall a good course.  Holes sort of ran together a little bit, but for public golf it was pretty good.  I understand the public golf market in general in Richmond is a little lacking.

* Kinloch - Completely different.  Driving in you see some of the holes and at first glance think that there's nothing too specical looking.  But, once you get around to play the course is terrific.  The playability options and different choices off the tee are great, but more than that the way the course flows with the land is exceptional.  It looked as though the course had been there for 100 years.  It is a modern classic in ever sense.  Greens are very interesting and the variety of holes you get out there is perfect, each one a little different and unique in its own way.

* Bull's Bay - My favorite Strantz (played Tobacco and Royal New Kent).  Fit the land perfectly and other than a few holes wasn't too much over the top or quirky (2 par 5's were a little odd).  The way the greens and bunkers were cut into the landscape was outstanding.

* Daniel Island (Ralston Creek) - Probably the best Rees I've played (Black Lake, Bryan Park) but more of a resedential feel to the majority of the course.  8, 9, 10, 11 are a good stretch of holes.

* Kiawah (Ocean Course) - I've played it before and to me it is my favorite Dye and it might be my favorite of the trip.  The back 9 is such a great stretch of holes and the front 9 is such a good contrast that it makes for an enjoyable day, even if the wind or course is beating you up.  I think in the discussion of great links courses this gets overlooked at times.  Can hold its own with all of the Bandon courses in my opinion.  This was the favorite course of a few people in the group.

* Cuscowilla - Great set of greens that really make the course.  Other then the greens and unique bunkering look, the course doesn't have too much flash to really throw at you.  I was a little surprised how much of a residential feel (with houses on many holes) the course had.  The short uphill par 4, 5th hole, is a great hole.  Overall a very solid course.

* Rivermont Golf & CC - Played there with GCA'r Chris Cupit.  The renovation work is great.  I really enjoyed the greens out there.  The members really don't know what a treat they are to be able to play those greens every day.  I (we) were pretty worn out and only drive the back but that I think is even the better of the two 9's.  For those in or around Atlanta that haven't had a chance to play there need to find a way to get on.  I big surprise on the trip for me.  Had a lot of similarities as Black Creek on the green complexes, which I really like Black Creek.

* The Honors Course - Other than a few features it is a very subtle Pete Dye layout.  Fits the land perfectly and again, the greens I think a great aspect that may get overlooked on the course.  Not an over the top Pete Dye design that sometimes you get (a few holes on Blackwolf Run for example) but very subtle layout and features that almost make it look as though little was changed from what was prior on the land.


Anyone else who've played some of these courses have any thoughts or opinions?
« Last Edit: April 11, 2008, 01:40:46 PM by Brian Cenci »

K. Krahenbuhl

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Re: Comments on a trip from Michigan to The Masters...and back...
« Reply #1 on: April 11, 2008, 01:42:38 PM »
Sounds like another great trip Brian.  I'd be interested to hear what some of your favorite holes were when you look back at all of those courses that you played.  I would also second your thoughts on Rivermont.  Chris has made some great decisions there and it definitely belongs with some of the other great courses you played.

Brian Cenci

Re: Comments on a trip from Michigan to The Masters...and back...
« Reply #2 on: April 11, 2008, 01:49:28 PM »
hmm.....my favorite holes, heres a few as I look back:

*3rd & 18th @ Oakmont
*2nd, 5th & 18th @ Pete Dye GC
*2nd & 9th @ Kinloch
*12th & 18th @ Bull's Bay
*6th, 11th & 18th @ Ocean Course
*5th @ Cuscowilla
*17th @ Rivermont
*14th @ Honors Course

Jim Colton

Re: Comments on a trip from Michigan to The Masters...and back...
« Reply #3 on: April 11, 2008, 02:25:56 PM »
Wow, that is a great trip!  I've been wanting to hear more about Kinloch.  Thanks for the update.

This reminds me of my first trip to the Masters in 1996, when my buddy (Jeff Tang, one of the newest members to this board) and I hopped in the car from Champaign, IL and headed down to Georgia.  I was still in school but basically just skipped a week to head down there.  We played a couple courses in the Atlanta-area before making the pilgrimage.

George Freeman

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Re: Comments on a trip from Michigan to The Masters...and back...
« Reply #4 on: April 11, 2008, 03:05:24 PM »
I was lucky enough to join Brian and Dave (and Brad) for the first round of their trip at Oakmont.  What an incredible place, and an absolutely awesome course. 

The first thing that hit me when I saw the course was how open it felt.  You can see all the way across the back nine (and #1 & #9), across the highway, and view almost the entire lot of holes (#2-8) from the clubhouse/putting green.  Since playing the course, I have seen various photos of the course prior to the tree removal program; I was absolutely blown away at how different it looks now from then.  I would never have thought it was the same course.  I personally think the open look suits the course much better; the terrain is very rolling and the vistas across the course are quite stunning.

As Brian mentioned, the site is much hillier than it appeared on TV for the open (I would assume this happens to a lot of courses, ANGC would be the most famous example).  There were quite a few pretty decent uphill (#9, 11, 17!) and downhill (#3, 4, 10, 12) tee shots, which I was surprised by. 

The best part of the course to me was that it just reeked of strategy on every hole.  Whether or not you knew what those strategies were was a completely different issue all together (in our case, four virgins to the course, we usually did not).  Hitting specific sides of fairways and putting your ball on specific sections of the greens is a must.  The greens had just been punched and sanded, so they didn’t have nearly the amount of bite they would usually have.  Our caddies were continually saying “that ball is off the green in July” and “they couldn’t even put a pin there in August”.  But even with the greens in the shape they were, they were still extremely challenging.  Missing above the hole or short siding yourself brings big numbers into play.

For our round, the rough and long grasses were not nearly at the normal lengths, therefore not as penal.  I can only imagine how much tougher the course would have played with longer rough and deep fescue. 

I have never played a course with more penal bunkering.  The lips are so high on most of the fairway that you’re lucky to be able to advance a wedge 100 yards, and if you’re near the face, forget about it, you’re chipping out.  Many of the greenside sand traps had vertical grass faces, which meant very few uphill lies to help you get over them.

Don’t mistake all this talk about the difficulty of the course as me saying it wasn’t fun…This round definitely ranks in my top two or three rounds of my life on the fun scale.  The course can definitely beat you up, but it feels more like a chess match than being in a ring w/ Mike Tyson.

I won’t go into specific holes, b/c that has been done extensively already on this site (see George Pazin’s awesome write-ups:

http://golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,28758.0.html )

but if I had to name a few favorites, I would list #2, 3, 5, 9, 12, 13, 15& 18.   

It was truly a round I will never forget, my only regrets are that the greens weren’t up to the normal standards/speeds, but hopefully someday I’ll have a chance to get back to Oakmont and experience them in their true glory.

Cheers
Mayhugh is my hero!!

"I love creating great golf courses.  I love shaping earth...it's a canvas." - Donald J. Trump

J_ Crisham

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Re: Comments on a trip from Michigan to The Masters...and back...
« Reply #5 on: April 11, 2008, 09:00:01 PM »
Brian,
         I also had the good fortune to experience true Southern hospitality with Chris at Rivermont last Fall. His course was well designed. I actually thought the 1st hole was one of the best . Some very nice elevation changes and great greens. As far as The Honors Course- what a retreat! I would have to say playing here on a daily basis would never grow old. The first six holes through the woods are incredible. 9 is one of the best short par 4s. The short par 3 ,13? was really cool. Just a special place.  :)

Brian_Sleeman

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Re: Comments on a trip from Michigan to The Masters...and back...
« Reply #6 on: April 11, 2008, 09:16:21 PM »
Sounds like a great trip, Brian - glad you enjoyed it!

Andy Troeger

Re: Comments on a trip from Michigan to The Masters...and back...
« Reply #7 on: April 12, 2008, 09:55:36 AM »
Brian,
Nice trip, I wish I could say I'd played some of them to discuss with you but instead many make the top of my "wish list" for a future trip back east (probably not all on one trip like you did though)! One of these days! You played arguably the top three Pete Dye courses that I haven't seen, would be interesting to compare them to the rest of his best.

Brian Cenci

Re: Comments on a trip from Michigan to The Masters...and back...
« Reply #8 on: April 12, 2008, 11:00:21 AM »
Brian,
         I also had the good fortune to experience true Southern hospitality with Chris at Rivermont last Fall. His course was well designed. I actually thought the 1st hole was one of the best . Some very nice elevation changes and great greens. As far as The Honors Course- what a retreat! I would have to say playing here on a daily basis would never grow old. The first six holes through the woods are incredible. 9 is one of the best short par 4s. The short par 3 ,13? was really cool. Just a special place.  :)

Yea, I'm still trying to figure out what I like better from Dye.  Understated like the Honors Course or expansive and defined like Pete Dye GC.

Brian Cenci

Re: Comments on a trip from Michigan to The Masters...and back...
« Reply #9 on: April 14, 2008, 10:52:01 AM »
Brian,
Nice trip, I wish I could say I'd played some of them to discuss with you but instead many make the top of my "wish list" for a future trip back east (probably not all on one trip like you did though)! One of these days! You played arguably the top three Pete Dye courses that I haven't seen, would be interesting to compare them to the rest of his best.

Andy,
   Of Pete Dye courses, I've played:

*Kiawah - Ocean Course
*Whistling Straits - Straits
*Pete Dye Golf Club
*The Honors Course
*Whistling Straits - Irish
*Blackwolf Run - River

     While I haven't played a lot of different Dye courses (quantity wise) I think I've played a good collection of his top courses.  IMO, if I were to put them in order of my favorite to least it would probably be something close to the list that is shown (although they are all in my top 30 for example so technically they are more of my favorite courses). 
     I have a hard time comparing a course like The Honors Course with a course like Whistling Straits though.  The Honors has a feel that is perfect for the land and a layout that fits so well in the setting.  The Straits course is so over the top (although it fits its location on a little bluff next to Lake Michigan) it would look so stupid in the middle of Chattanooga for example (and vice versa).  Of the other top Dye courses I think they would be like: The Golf Club, TPC - Stadium, Harbor Town, Long Cove, Crooked Stick....Obviously I've never played them so I'm not sure how they would compare.  I had the chance to play Long Cove, but opted for Bull's Bay instead at the time.

-Brian

Andy Troeger

Re: Comments on a trip from Michigan to The Masters...and back...
« Reply #10 on: April 14, 2008, 07:47:58 PM »
Brian,
At least we're even now. There are probably about as many people that would put the Irish ahead of the River as there are that put Tullymore ahead of Arcadia Bluffs  ;D

In any case I've played most of the ones you have not and vice versa. My list would go something like this:

Tier 1: The Golf Club, Blackwolf Run River, TPC Sawgrass (all in my top six, I would place all in top fifty in USA comfortably-TGC maybe top 20-25).

Tier 2: Harbour Town, Whistling Straits, Crooked Stick, Long Cove (all in my top 15-30 and I would say top 100 in USA or very close to it).

Tier 3: The Fort, Blackwolf Run Meadow Valleys, Whistling Straits Irish, Mystic Hills (good golf, especially the first two, worth playing if in the area).

Tier 4: Kearney Hill, Kampen (not BAD per se, but something has to bring up the rear--I'm in no real hurry to see these two again).

He also did some work at the CC of Indianapolis which is a fine club and worth playing for anyone who gets the opportunity. Might have been a Diddel and/or Bendelow originally.