[Tiger_Bernhardt]

I just made a post on this below but I feel it is a topic in itself. I forget the mans name but the head of the Alabama Public Pension Funds single handedly had the visionand  carried the ball to fund and build the golf trail in Alabama. I have no doubt it is the great gift to quality public golf in the history of our country. It also had a remarkable impact on the image of the State. I met with this man several times in the 90's. He was open and helpful to me in everyway to create the same product in Louisiana. He told me, and he was correct, the problem other states would have was the lack of a pension czar to control enough money without politics and other peoples ideas getting involved. It is making maney and the courses are good, in ood condition(great of public) and priced for the general public. I am amazed by its success wonder if any other project can hold a candle to it. I do not think NY can by the by.

[Tommy Williamsen]

I have not played the RTJ Trail but hink it is a grand idea.  West VA. over the years has built some parks that include golf and in one case skiing.  They did a pretty good job and the golf is good.  It is nice to see states take the initiative in these ventures.

[tlavin]

It may be apocryphal, but it is widely believed that the Archdiocese of Chicago leased the land for Cog Hill (72 holes of public golf) for something like 100 years at $1,000 per year.  Thank you, Jesus.

[Lynn_Shackelford]

Tiger, I don't know about the present, but it is my understanding the courses together had a negative cash flow for the first 15 or so years.  I can't argue about what it has done for the image of the state, and tourism, but somebody should have some deep pockets to take on this kind of project.  The pension plan did.

[Tiger_Bernhardt]

Lynn I was told they were positive cash flow over and above maintenance etc on a course by course basis from year 2 or 3 on. The capital outlays were continual and large therefore it was long term before cash flow catches up. There is no question about the image issues. There are people from all over the world that now come to Alabama which would never have on a bet in the home state of George Wallace, Selma Alabama marches etc. The word of mouth is huge plus they use Masters week to bring focus to the project each year on tv. I think that is the part the Pension king is most proud of.

[Richard Choi]

I will back Tiger on the fact that I never would have visited Alabama if it was not for RTJ Trail. There aren't too many collections of quality courses available for play at such reasonable prices.

I am not sure if I am going back anytime soon though. There were four of us traveling, all asians. I remember vividly the day when we walked through a restaurant in Auburn. Every set of eyes in that restaurant were on us and it was incredibly uncomfortable. We high-tailed out of there and ate at the resort.

But golf was GREAT!

[Pete_Pittock]

  With all the great courses in Oregon I know two groups from here that go to the Alabama Trail every year. I have been advocating to no avail the same format the length of the Oregon Coast.
  Tiger, is there any way you could point him in our direction? Both for the golf and our pension fund.

[Doug Ralston]

And, of course, Kentucky State Parks built an excellent 'Trail'. Have I already mentioned that? Well, great, and much cheaper for us average Joe's than RTJ.

Truth be told, most people of small means get very little exposure to quality GCA. They end up playing mediocre munis and thinking that golf is just about scores and defeating whomever you play with. The 'Trails' and CCFADs are the occasional opportunity to appreciate what most of you here clearly take for granted.

I love a really great steak. Have one maybe once per year, just to keep my hand in. Because of that, I can appreciate the difference. Same for golf courses. Let an average weekender play someplace like Bandon [or, for me, TR], and it can open eyes.

Don't know if it's 'Greatest', but it was pretty high up there.

Doug

[John Mayhugh]

One of the best features on the RTJ are the short courses.  I think they cost $1/hole walking.  Having these really enhances the facility and is a great way to encourage more beginners.  And they aren't the boring par 3 courses that most of us are more familiar with.

[Bill_McBride]

Tiger, there is a Louisiana trail, right?  What are the comparisons in terms of cost and quality with Alabama?

I have enjoyed some of the RTJ Trail (Dothan, Auburn, Greenville) and hated others (Birmingham, Prattville and Mobile).  Some of it is very good, some is repetitiive and what is repeated is not very good!

[RJ_Daley]

Tiger, I used to know some of the basics about the use of a small portion of our own State pension fund, which I believe was an "enterprise" fund, used to promote "start-up" or retain burgeoning business enterprizes that benefit Wisconsin. 

But, isn't the bar rather high in the fiduciary sense for the managers of such public employee pension funds, to invest with a high degree of due diligence regarding the soundness of the investment?  In the matter of a grand vision of a State golf trail, while the idea is certainly a good one to promote a State with a popular tourist attraction that also provides great recreation and beauty space in the outdoors, it also might be hard to project soundness of the investment at 6-10 million a course, that would yield a relatively safe or predictable return.  But, as these designated small portions of these huge funds are cut out to be more risk-reward oriented as they are designed to promote intra-state business and promote the State in general, I think it 'could' be worth while for other States to pursue.   It could also be disasterous for 'some' States due to the wide disparity of land acquisition costs varied throughout the States, regional labor costs, etc.  

I think a State pension fund sponsored trail was proposed in Nebraska as well. 

There just seems to be a number of 'other' considerations beyond the narrow desire for golfers to have more venues, including some areas that are overbuilt already, thus might not be a good investment.

[Jason McNamara]

Tiger, there is a Louisiana trail, right? 

It's more of an ad-hoc thing.  Various owners (housing developments, casino courses, etc.), and many of the courses existed before the Trail itself.

[Jim_Kennedy]

Taken as a whole, the RTJ Trail clears a 3% profit for the RSA, or so says David Bronner, it's CEO.

[Joel_Stewart]

I am amazed by its success wonder if any other project can hold a candle to it. I do not think NY can by the by.

Good question.

Sam Morse may be a candidate and Mike Keiser.  The public works guy from New York during the depression that did Bethpage and other courses may also be someone to consider.

[Bill_McBride]

I am amazed by its success wonder if any other project can hold a candle to it. I do not think NY can by the by.

Good question.

Sam Morse may be a candidate and Mike Keiser.  The public works guy from New York during the depression that did Bethpage and other courses may also be someone to consider.

Robert Moses.  A fascinating person, he's worth some research.

[David Kelly]

I am amazed by its success wonder if any other project can hold a candle to it. I do not think NY can by the by.

Good question.

Sam Morse may be a candidate and Mike Keiser.  The public works guy from New York during the depression that did Bethpage and other courses may also be someone to consider.

Robert Moses.  A fascinating person, he's worth some research.

Its been done and its one of the greatest biographies ever written.
http://www.amazon.com/Power-Broker-Robert-Moses-Fall/dp/0394720245

[Lynn_Shackelford]

David, thanks for the link, just ordered it.  It looks long, maybe there will be something in there about Merion?

[David Kelly]

David, thanks for the link, just ordered it.  It looks long, maybe there will be something in there about Merion?

Lynn,

I don't remember how much there was on Bethpage if anything.  Moses was the major stumbling block in Walter O'Malley getting his new domed stadium near the Atlantic Yards area of Brooklyn and instead wanted him to build where Shea Stadium is now. O'Malley wouldn't hear of it and the rest is history.  It was of course a big deal at the time but it only warrants a 1 page mention in Caro's 1300 page book.

[Ryan Farrow]

I'll be damned if Robert Moses didn't have a hand in Bethpage. Should of figured, they built how many golf courses there? Still don't know what to make of the man, he has done some pretty incredible and terrible things. Certainly worth reading about.

[Tiger_Bernhardt]

Bill Jason nailed it. Our trail is an adhoc collection of average to poor daily fee courses which use the state ad budget for promostion. Peter it took all the pension funds being under one czar and politically independent to make this happen. I do not know the facts in Oregon. You might note there are no Alabama course in the Gulf Shores area where they would compete with the resort area daily fees. There is a state park course there but it is closer to what one finds anywhere and not a real threat to cash flow of the upscale daily fees in the area like the trail courses would be. It was a work of a wise committed man who I respect more and more as I discover how many have tried to build the same and all have failed to come close.

[Jason McNamara]

You might note there are no Alabama course in the Gulf Shores area where they would compete with the resort area daily fees. There is a state park course there but it is closer to what one finds anywhere and not a real threat to cash flow of the upscale daily fees in the area like the trail courses would be.

Yup.  I agree that Gulf State Park GC is not going to compete with Kiva Dunes, etc., but it was an inexpensive round of golf ($30ish, iirc) on a well-maintained course, and there certainly were no WTF? holes.  I wouldn't say GSP is necessarily RTJ-level golf, but any new RTJ course in Gulf Shores would either have to compete against the higher-end daily fees, or (if more mid-market) might cannibalize another state-run course.

[Bill_McBride]

RTJ Trail in Southern Alabama?  I would avoid Mobile like the plague itself.  Might be the least fun courses I've ever played....

[Melvyn Morrow]

Bill

I don't like Mobile much either and its nothing
to do with the course, which I have never seen.

Melvyn

[Lou_Duran]

There was an article in the Wall Street Journal or some other financial publication a couple of years ago on the financing of the RTJ Trail.  My recollection is that it has been anything but a financial success for the investors, requiring some restructuring and a much lower projected ROI.  I'll post the citation if I can find it.

I like the courses very much when I toured them back in 2000 (3 locations, 7 courses).  The ones near Auburn (Grand National?) are my favorites.

These large scale courses were not cheap to build (one bridge alone at the one near Birmingham cost over $1MM) nor inexpensive to maintain.  The fees were reasonable, the conditions were good, and they weren't very crowded at all.  Unfortunately, it is cart golf for the most part, play was still slow (5 hours+ for most rounds) and the service at the clubs (like getting lunch) was not stellar.

I can see how they add to the communities where they are located, though I am not sure I'd want to be a pensioneer depending on the Trail's cash flow for my secure retirement.  Financing via revenue bonds might have been a fairer approach.     

[Mike_Young]

Bill Jason nailed it. Our trail is an adhoc collection of average to poor daily fee courses which use the state ad budget for promostion. Peter it took all the pension funds being under one czar and politically independent to make this happen. I do not know the facts in Oregon. You might note there are no Alabama course in the Gulf Shores area where they would compete with the resort area daily fees. There is a state park course there but it is closer to what one finds anywhere and not a real threat to cash flow of the upscale daily fees in the area like the trail courses would be. It was a work of a wise committed man who I respect more and more as I discover how many have tried to build the same and all have failed to come close.

Damn Tiger....I think I have a couple of courses on that trail.....oh well.....you win some and lose some.....

Lou,
I think you are on track with your analysis of the RTJ courses....they may have an operating profit but I don't think they have been able to cover debt etc.....the same year the courses were catching it for the initial losses etc ,  the Pension fund had also purchased an asbestos problem building in Manhattan which sort of took the heat off of the golf courses because it was a BIGGER faux paux.......but overall both of these projects were a small blip in the Retirement fund from what I am told.....

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