Ripping out cart paths

[Peter Wagner]

I was driving my home course yesterday taking pictures for my upcoming "My Home Course" submission.  Some of the pictures suffer in quality because a cement cart crosses a portion of the frame.  It caused me to wonder again:  should we just rip the cart paths out?

What if we pulled out the concrete paths and replaced them with hard packed dirt paths.  Or maybe just grass cart paths clearly marked.

Does anyone have experience with this sort of project?  We are in Southern California so rain isn't much of an issue.  Dust may be a problem if we went hard packed dirt.  Why not go with grass cart paths and expect the tires to wear the grass down to dirt tire tracks.  A pleasant look I think.

Any thoughts? 

Best,
Peter

[Tommy Williamsen]

At Musgrove Mill we have ripped out some cart paths where they either interfered with play or were an eyesore and replaced them with Bermuda in some places and sand in places where it was natural.  Other cart paths have been routed through the woods.  It was eaasy at MM because it only gets about 11,000 rounds a year.  The project has not yet been completed so I am anxious to see it when I get there in May.

[Don_Mahaffey]

Although we all would prefer no cart paths...a couple of considerations before you do away with them.

Do you overseed? Are you willing to lengthen the down period during seeding and establishment? Paths get you out there quicker.

Do you have good ingress/egress for maintenance equipment around the perimeter? If your mowers, tractors, and utility vehicles use the paths to get around, make sure you have alternative service roads ready.

I grew up in So. Cal, yes it doesn't rain much, but about every 5 years, blame it on El Nino, it can rain...a lot. If you do away with the paths make sure your membership is ready to walk. Carts on wet, soggy turf is very bad for your course.

[Sean Leary]

Cart paths always look far worse in two dimensions, in my opinion.

At Prairie Dunes, they are looking at moving a few to make them less visible. C + C's crew is involved....

[Melvyn Morrow]

Rip them out, replace them with boulders, stones, tanks traps, water features, rare flowers but do not change the route for the carts. See how good theses cart boys are without four wheel drive. Dust vs the visual branding of each course with its cart tracks, no contest dust, dust, dust every time –just imagine playing a links course with sand being blown from the beach by the on shore breeze – perfect, no more carts or those cart tracks.

Music to my ears - Yes, Yes, Yes make them less visible - Rip them Up.

[Matthew Hunt]

I hate the look of these things, its like covering the Statue of Liberty in a climbing frame!

[Steve Lapper]

Peter:

   Having enough experience with your club and it's high level of aesthetic I'd make a few suggestions. I'd avoid any simple dirt path...too bohemian for your membership. They' likely hunt you down and kill you (then find the rest of us and do the same...(maybe even use Pellicano if he gets off ??, and we all know about the LA Judicial system!). Grass paths look great, but cost a fortune to periodically replace/reseed to avoid their inevitable evolution to just dirt. They are also less traction-able for some of your hillier terrain. It works for seaside venues, but not the Valley.

   One suggestion would be to look at a crushed shell or artificial material surface that can be color blended to yield a better-than-tolerable aesthetic, decent wear and upkeep costs and providing of enough traction for your terrain. I've seen this used from time-to-time (with lovely success) at higher-end Resort courses. Good luck and be well.
S

[Kyle Harris]

The "need" to remove cart paths from sight has done just as much to set golf architect down a bland path as anything.

[Peter Wagner]

Tommy,

Yep, we see a similar number of rounds played which I think is important in considering something like this.   I would be interested in your thoughts the next time you see MM.

Don,
You are right about El Nino years.  We find that our cart players don't play in the rain (go figure!) so it would be the days following as the paths dry out.  Still a significant point though.

Melvyn,
If we ever invade Cuba I want you next to me.  On second thought, I want you in front of me.

Steve,
Too late about the members hunting me down part...  that started on day one.  Yep, you're right, dirt paths might be too radical for our membership.  The grass with dirt tire marks could work though.

Kyle,
I never said that I "needed" to remove cement cart paths.  This is just something worth studying I think.  This message board seems to be a good place to bounce ideas around.  From a selfish standpoint, it's good for me to have a place to refine ideas away from my membership.  Sometimes their reactions to mere ideas of mine start rumors and that doesn't help anything.

Really the only thing I 'need' to do is to try to move my home club forward in as many areas as I can and I'm just exploring if this would help us.

Here's an example of what I see:


It's not terrible but what if it were grass and/or dirt instead?  Just a thought.

This is a secret dirt path in the middle of my home course that only 3 or 4 members know about.  I showed this path to a friend that has been a member since 1989 and he was shocked as he had never seen it.


It's never been maintained and strangely it's my favorite place on the course.

Best,
Peter

[Bill_McBride]

Do you have cart paths from tee to green?  I think that private clubs without 60,000 rounds a year should be able to get by with greenside and green to tee cart paths.  If the members are smart enough to avoid wet areas, or the staff is required to rope off wet areas, there shouldn't be enough damage from tee to green to be a big problem.

At least in theory! 

[Lou_Duran]

Have the rumors of a coup d'etat started floating in the beautiful, rustic forests of Sherwood?  Like with tree removal, the work is best done by the light of a full moon.

[Melvyn Morrow]

Peter

Invade Cuba – not me, my father was there in the early 1960’s and had dealings with Che Guevara – in one of his meeting, Che reached over and borrowed a Dunhill lighter used by my father’s colleague. He brought the lighter up to the side of his face to relight his small cheroot, problem was
the lighter was set on high and it singed half of Che’s whisky beard and moustache on one side of his face. My old Dad said that Che did not flinch
but continued until his cheroot was lit, then returned the lighter to the table. Expecting all hell to break loose, my father waited for the worst  - Che thank them for their time and no mention was made about the lighter. My father attended a few more meeting with him before leaving Cuba some months later.
   
Your quote under the picture
‘It's never been maintained and strangely it's my favourite place on the course’

– I prefer to play on grass, but nothing surprises me anymore about the game you Guys play over there, can’t see the flag, just a very narrow stony fairway, must be fun wondering the direction of the bounce. As for the rough, boy your designers play dirty but at least no carts!

[Dave Givnish]

At Desert Forest, we put in trails a couple of years ago.  These are dirt paths that are in the desert waste areas.  We watered them up until a few years ago when we switched to a product that I think is called Soil Sement.  This stuff gets sprayed on about twice a year.  It is not cheap, but it is less expensive than the labor for watering.

The trails are in play.  Loose impediments can be removed and the shot feels like hitting off hardpan.

This has worked well for us. 

[Kyle Harris]

Peter,

To be clear, I said "remove cart paths from sight"

By that I meant with mounding and circuitous routing.

[Kyle Harris]

Rip them out, replace them with boulders, stones, tanks traps, water features, rare flowers but do not change the route for the carts. See how good theses cart boys are without four wheel drive. Dust vs the visual branding of each course with its cart tracks, no contest dust, dust, dust every time –just imagine playing a links course with sand being blown from the beach by the on shore breeze – perfect, no more carts or those cart tracks.

Music to my ears - Yes, Yes, Yes make them less visible - Rip them Up.

I suppose we can grass over that darn road across the 1st and 18th holes at your ancestor's old place...

...and that darn path right next to the 17th green.

[Melvyn Morrow]

Kyle

Are they cart paths???

[RJ_Daley]

Peter, that first photo obviously shows the path with curbs through the glade with steep slopes and at least two drains.  I'd guess that the rain run-off in that specific area would be a real quagmire if it were not designed with curb and gutter so to speak.  I'm guessing that tree canopied glade is some area leaving a teeing area, and leading to a FW?  It seems to be pretty unintrusive right there.

I was trying to look at Google aerial to get a better sense of the total cart path impact.  From the air, only the last 4-5 holes seem most impacted by paths.  But, I'm left with wondering how dependent the overall drainage scheme is dependent on what may be under the cart paths as far as drainage engineering is going.  What does the superintendent and the as-builts indicate in that regard?

[Jacob Erisman]

I've always thought that the cart path directly in front of the tee on 15 at Augusta looks terrible. I can't believe the greens committee has put up with the view off that tee for so long, especially since it's so late in the round. You'd think they'd either reroute the path or get rid of it. It's clearly just for maintenance vehicles and it's not like it's being trampled by 90 carts a day.

[Cory Brown]

Peter,
I believe that cart paths for most courses are a necessary evil in modern golf.  I don't think your paths look bad at all from your picture, and it certainly looks better than a rutted, gravelly path.  But that is only my opinion, your best bet might be to ask your Golf Course Superintendent what he thinks about the idea.  He will be able to tell you if the paths are necessary as is or if some of them could be done away with.  Another thing to consider is that the club probably spent a considerable amount of money to install the paths either during construction or at some point thereafter.  Removal and replacement with another option will also cost a considerable amount.
Best of luck.

Cory Brown

[Ray Richard]

Mr. Morrow-Great Che Guevara story!

I have used a soil cement process with #2 Portland Cement mixed with dense grade aggregate in a small batch plant. The aggregate can be purchased in several colors and the final product is very durable-it goes down in 3" lifts over a 4" compacted base.

Where's that verbose fellow in the paving industry when you need him? You know the guy....sort of opinionated....any thoughts on this subject?

[Melvyn Morrow]

Ray – thanks,

Are you a designer of crazy paving or seaside mini golf?

As Kyle mentioned "remove cart paths from sight", but there is only one way, rip them out.

I must say that I am waiting for the day someone puts a parking area along side the cart tracks for a coffee/beverage vender to sell their goods, (the fragrant smell of burgers and onions as you drive up to the course) perhaps take the wife out for a full romantic cart meal, using these facilities, that should help raise extra money and make a total mockery of the course/club/game not to mention your marriage, but may help balance the books and will certainly help slow down the game. 

Perhaps a few years further down the line we may even see Hells Angles on their HD stopping and using the parking area as a pit stop.

Put it all back to grass, if the carts damage the grass, ban them as certain clubs have no problem Banning Walking. 

It will lead you to the evil of drink; you will all be Doomed, Doomed I say, Doomed. Like Bill McBride, he would not be warned, so he is forced to return to Scotland and play Royal Dornoch & TOC time after time, after time.

[John Burzynski]

MY closest local muni has cart paths from green to tee only, and even then not on every hole.  The paths are made of large crushed landscape stone, and really don't intrude all that much on the golf landscape.    A nice way to have paths if you need them.

[Bill_McBride]

Ray – thanks,

Are you a designer of crazy paving or seaside mini golf?

As Kyle mentioned "remove cart paths from sight", but there is only one way, rip them out.

I must say that I am waiting for the day someone puts a parking area along side the cart tracks for a coffee/beverage vender to sell their goods, (the fragrant smell of burgers and onions as you drive up to the course) perhaps take the wife out for a full romantic cart meal, using these facilities, that should help raise extra money and make a total mockery of the course/club/game not to mention your marriage, but may help balance the books and will certainly help slow down the game. 

Perhaps a few years further down the line we may even see Hells Angles on their HD stopping and using the parking area as a pit stop.

Put it all back to grass, if the carts damage the grass, ban them as certain clubs have no problem Banning Walking. 

It will lead you to the evil of drink; you will all be Doomed, Doomed I say, Doomed. Like Bill McBride, he would not be warned, so he is forced to return to Scotland and play Royal Dornoch & TOC time after time, after time.

You gotta hate that! 

[Tim Nugent]

Peter, I was impressed with a crumb-rubber path from the clubhouse to the first tee at Troon.  It was a light tan color and at first I thought it was gravel until I walked on it.  I've seen this on new playgrounds around the climbing equipt.  Most likely it comes in many colors, so blending with surroundings should be easy. Most likely it can be bonded right to the existing concrete - thereby reducing a big tear-out and restore mess/expense. 
Everyone should bear-in-mind that paths originally were for maintenance equipt. and carts just co-opted them.  I try to think of them as maintenance paths.
  In case there's any ?, I hate them, hate looking at them, hate playing around them, hate the damage they impart to my golf ball, and hate having to design them into course.
If the land is available, I feel all designers would be better served by locating them as far as possible from the playing areas and refering to them as Maintenance Paths not Cart Paths. 
Remember, TOC doesn't allow carts but has paths. 

[mark chalfant]

Peter,

You may want to inquire about the new paths  At Cal Club,  near  SFO, which  is winding up  a  lovely restoration  by Kyle Phillips, Mark  Thawley   , and Josh Smith.  They used a material of very  natural/ earth tone that looked quite nice, and from  what  I understand is expected to be practical  and durable. I hope your  project goes well