[Jerry Kluger]

The Masters and the Players are the two tournaments with the strongest fields that are played at the same venue each year.  The question I am posing is which is a better championship venue?  More particularly, which has the better back nine to test a player on Sunday afternoon, and even more particularly, which has the best finishing holes?

To me, there is no question that ANGC from 10 - 15 is a great stretch of holes which challenges the player with strategy as well shot making.   But today, 16 through 18 aren't the test that they used to be. 

Sawgrass is known for the finish at 16 through 18.  Personally, I am not a big fan of 17 but it is a real test for the player trying to challenge the leader, or someone trying to hold on to the lead.  I view the challenges of 17 at Sawgrass and 12 at ANGC to be similar.  16 at Sawgrass is a really good test as well as opportunity, while 18, is one of the great finishing holes in tournament golf.

[Tiger_Bernhardt]

It might as well be Augusta versus my back yard. Augusta National is the best by far with only Pebble and TOC for competition

[John Kavanaugh]

Please remind me of one great shot ever hit at 18 on TPC.

[Kalen Braley]

Are we sure the basic premise is true??

I would bet Jacks tournament has a stronger field year in and year out.  Or even some of the World Championship events or Arnies event.

[Jerry Kluger]

The Players has as strong a field as any tournament and the Masters is using the top 50 US as well as top 50 world rankings, etc., so that field is certainly strong.  Jack's field is also strong but some players still skip it while virtually none of the eligible players skip Augusta or Sawgrass.

JK: Are you equating great with heroic?  The tee shot at the 18th at the Players is extremely challenging and I believe that a number of players have taken themselves out of contention at that hole.  Missing the green also makes for some very difficult recovery shots.  From what I remember in the past few years, the tee shot at the 18th at ANGC is simply not as imposing for the player.  I know that the player will be thinking about the fact that it is the Masters, etc., and all that pressure, but I am limiting myself to playing the hole.  The player needs to stay out of the fairway bunker - period - we 've seen players miss it way left of the bunker and still hit it on the green - and I cannot remember a player hitting it way right so as to not have a shot.  Anything but fairway at the 18th at Sawgrass makes for a very tough par.

[John Kavanaugh]

I believe the architecture of the 18th at ANGC has created the memorable shots any of us can recall.  My personal favorite, one of the greatest of all time, is Sandy Lyle's 7 iron out of the fairway bunker to the old Sunday pin.

The 18th at TPC is nothing more than a reverse banana with a saucer of milk on the side.  It bores me the hundred or so times Dye insists on building the damn thing.

[Joe Fairey]

no contest....augusta....

[Phil Benedict]

Please remind me of one great shot ever hit at 18 on TPC.

Maybe Hal Sutton's second when he beat Tiger.  Adam Scott's chip and putt after he yanked it in the water.  That guy who's name I forget chipping in from over by the grandstand.

[tlavin]

Sort of a tossup, in my mind, but strictly in evaluating the character of the golf holes themselves, I'd actually lean toward Sawgrass.  The final holes at Augusta just aren't as dramatic.  Augusta has the two par 5's that fairly invite somebody a few shots back to take a risky play at eagle and that surely makes for great tournament theater.

The question goes a little bit beyond the actual character of the golf holes, however, and invokes the field and, therefore, the event itself.  If you're comparing the tournaments, there simply is no comparison.  I don't care how great the field is at the Players (it is spectacularly good) and I don't care that the pucker-point shot is at the 17th at the TPC (which is Kafkaesque in its placement) or the fact that the final three holes in Ponte Vedra all feature watery graves.  Augusta National, year in and year out, is the absolute best venue for tournament golf because of the time on the calendar, because of the risk/reward holes and, not insignificantly, because of the incredible mythology associated with the championship.  Simply the best. 

[Steve_Lovett]

no contest....augusta....

There is your answer - enough said!

[Jerry Kluger]

10 through 15 at ANGC are great holes for the back nine of a major but after that the danger is just not that great.  16 was a great hole but at 170 yards it is just not the same as it was.  Putting a tee in the ground and giving today's top players a 7 or 8 iron to hit really isn't that tough for them. No question, the shorter 12th is far more difficult.

The 18th at Sawgrass has the water left and is a common design but the trouble right is what challenges the player even more.  Deep rough, mounds, trees and even OB - that all makes for a very tough and challenging finish. 

[jeffwarne]

Augusta,
10 and 8

[Phil Benedict]

Would the 17th at Sawgrass be an appropriate hole if they played a real major there?  Would you want it to decide a major?

[Jason Connor]

Are we sure the basic premise is true??

I would bet Jacks tournament has a stronger field year in and year out.  Or even some of the World Championship events or Arnies event.

No doubt Augusta has a weaker field than Jack's, Arnie's and some of the WGCs.

(a) There are only 90 players at Augusta.  Remove guys like Gary Player and some amateurs who don't have an honest chance and you're down to 80-85 legitmate contenders.

We know that the #100-120 pros can beat Tiger (not often, but they can).  Todd Hamilton has done it, Shaun Micheel has done it, Bob May nearly did it.  

So the chances of winning are easier for even the best (Tiger, Phil, Furyk, Vijay) at Augusta than the TPC, Memorial, or Bay Hill due to the smaller number of players with a shot at winning.

The Masters has by far the weakest field among majors.
Nevertheless, the course may be one of the best at identifying the best golfer (whatever that means).

[Wade Whitehead]

Augusta is the better golf course.

Virtually no one lays up on 16 at Sawgrass.  If they do, the third shot isn't a challenge.  13 and 15 at ANGC are different.  Even a lay up presents a challenging approach.

I don't have as much a problem as some with 17 at Sawgrass, but there are so many holes that look like 18 (now) that it's become just another closing hole on Tour.

The difference in the two places can really only be perceived in person.  It's important not to base judgement about the quality of a course because of how it looks on television.  Sawgrass presents well on the tube, but there's little competition between these two candidates live and in person.

WW

[George Pazin]

To me, there is no question that ANGC from 10 - 15 is a great stretch of holes which challenges the player with strategy as well shot making.   But today, 16 through 18 aren't the test that they used to be.

How do you figure?

[tlavin]

Would the 17th at Sawgrass be an appropriate hole if they played a real major there?  Would you want it to decide a major?

Sure.  It's a legitimate golf hole.  Everybody should be able to hit a nine-iron under pressure, after all.  If you can't, you don't deserve to win.  The Players will never be a major, which is just fine with me, because an event shouldn't be able to so easily trump history, but it is a terrific event on a terrific course with a terrific field.  Year in and year out.

[Jerry Kluger]

I am not questioning or even discussing the quality of ANGC as a golf course - no doubt one of the greatest courses in the world. 

Here is perhaps another way to put the question:

TPC Sawgrass was built for the purpose of staging an event which is of championship caliber and so was ANGC.  Difference is that one was built around 50 years before the other.  Pete Dye designed Sawgrass and was given a great deal of discretion is designing the course.  Did he succeed in building a course for that purpose, and if so, in light of today's technology is it   in so far as the back nine and the finishing holes, a better test than ANGC?

[Jerry Kluger]

George: 16 is just not that tough for the top players - 12 is much more difficult - I think the reason is that 16 is a big target - it might take some real talent to 2 putt, but the tee shot is not that intimidating.  17 has not posed many problems for the players and other than the fairway bunkers, 18 isn't nearly as tough as 18 as Sawgrass.  I was watching some Masters highlights from a number of years ago and Watson missed the 18th green by about 10 yards left - putted it to about 4 feet. 

Am I wrong in remembering that playoffs at ANGC start at #10 - isn't that a more exciting or challenging hole than 18.

[George Pazin]

George: 16 is just not that tough for the top players - 12 is much more difficult - I think the reason is that 16 is a big target - it might take some real talent to 2 putt, but the tee shot is not that intimidating.  17 has not posed many problems for the players and other than the fairway bunkers, 18 isn't nearly as tough as 18 as Sawgrass.  I was watching some Masters highlights from a number of years ago and Watson missed the 18th green by about 10 yards left - putted it to about 4 feet. 

Am I wrong in remembering that playoffs at ANGC start at #10 - isn't that a more exciting or challenging hole than 18.

I'm not questioning 16-18 versus Sawgrass 16-18, I'm questioning your statement that they've lost their luster.

16 seems like one of the least changed holes on the course, both literally and for actual play purposes (since the big change was made by RTJ, obviously).

17 has always been a bear, and continues to be pivotal in the tourney every year. Seems like you see fewer birdies than ever there.

18 has been a short approach for quite awhile, until the recent additional yardage. It doesn't seem to have lost much (unless you are citing the now claustrophobic tee shot).

[I can add, to no one's surprise, and probably to even fewer's interest, that 18 Sawgrass would probably be the hardest hole in the world for me personally. ]

[Dean Stokes]

I think TPC is definitely a better course for watching the golf on and I think is more fun to watch a tournament at.  Is it a better golf course - doubtful - but that wasn't the question.
How can you beat the last three at TPC for excitement and danger? I've been to watch both and I enjoyed watching the TPC more. Just my view though.

[Jerry Kluger]

Told you guys 16 ain't that tough - old man Mark O'Meara made birdie and Ian Poulter aced it this morning.

[Matthew Hunt]

Both 18ths are two of the most overrated holes in tournement golf!

[Adrian_Stiff]

If you would have asked me this question 5 years ago I would have not hesitated in saying Augusta, now I have to think about it. Augusta, but only just.

[Kalen Braley]

I've always thought the back 9 sort of peaked at number 16...not that 17 and 18 are not good holes, but I don't think they really stack up to the fun run of 10-16..

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