[DMoriarty]

Mike.

Why do you keep saying the Crump manifest cannot be found?   It can be, and has been.  Just not by you.  Seems more an indictment of your research than of the source.

The Hugh I Wilson manifest is not "WRONG," whatever that means.   It is just not an absolutely perfect match.   It is still an excellent match though, especially when compared to Scottish Hugh Wilson traveling from England to Argentina with the wrong family and staff. 

As for Tillinghast, I explained that already, and provided Phil with one of the manifests he was missing.

[Mike_Cirba]

My lord, you guys are funny sometimes. 

First we're saying that it might be a "S" and not an "M" because his passport preceeded him getting married.

Of course, at the time Hugh Wilson had been married for SEVEN years.

Also, this was THREE WEEKS AFTER THE TITANIC WENT DOWN.   I'd imagine he'd want any survivors notified in the event of disaster and would have taken pains to ensure his stuff was in order because if this was his first time across the pond, as David contends, I'd imagine he was scared SH*TLESS!!!   

And the funniest thing of all about his passport being older than seven years?


Can I have the Number ONE answer please??   

DING DING DING!!!

You're also arguing that this was his first time overseas!! 


David Moriarty,

I love your courtroom semantics.

The manifest isn't WRONG, or incorrect.


It's just not a "absolutely perfect match".

Of the millions of people who sailed on ships across the sea between 1910 and 1912, you find someone who is "not an absolutely perfect match" for a guy who was well-to-do, well-connected, in Maritime Insurance, and it's the ONLY record you've found that MIGHT be our Hugh Wilson.

But yet, you expect us to accept this as PROOF.


You refuted my Hugh Wilson from 1910 because the "I", looked like a "D", although Tom Paul thought it looked like a "J".

Yet, are you now telling us that George Crump's manifest from 1910 has been found...oh...except for one little detail...

THEY SPELLED HIS MIDDLE INITIAL WRONG!!! 


You guys are KILLING ME!!! 


You can't have it both ways...

You can't say that George R. Crump returning from Europe in 1910 is a clear mispelling while...

The Hugh D or Hugh J Wilson returning from Europe in 1910 is the wrong guy.

 

[TEPaul]

"Tom, actually, I think it's with him.  I think this is Hugh I. Wilson of Philly who went to Europe in 1912.  The write-over of the T vs the I is a common thing and the "S" vs. "M" doesn't phase me at all because it doesn't really go to the accuracy of the manifests for their intended purpose.  The whole notion of having "s" vs "m" on there wasn't even necessary at all.  And it seems to me that an "error" on something that was irrelevent in the first place is no reason to throw out the evidence.  They try this crap in court all the time.  Ask Dick Daley.  Smart-ass defendants walk into court all the time and try to get tickets thrown out because the cop forgot to dot an "i" on a ticket or didn't fill in "am" or "pm" on the time of the ticket or transposed a number on the defendant's address or whatever....it never works unless it goes to proof of the charge..."

Shivas:

Hand-writing analysis and some analysis of old type is not what I had in mind. There really is a sort of corroborating story out there that would probably lead any jury or any reasonable person to assume or even conclude that the Wilson on that 1912 manifest is Merion's Wilson. It's odd you, and perhaps others, don't seem to pick up on what that is. This is why one needs to always look at Merion's history in its totality and not just fixate on individual little items in a vacuum.

[Mike_Cirba]

Tom,

Are you talking about the Titanic rumors?

I'm not saying that it might not be Hugh Wilson, but it might not be and it's anything but conclusive.   I struggle to make that out as an "I" and then the whole married vs single explanations I've heard make no sense to me.

The funny thing is that David has completely discounted the 1910 Manifest I produced earlier showing a Hugh Wilson with a funky handwriting for a middle initial that you thought might be a J and RJ Daley thought might be a D, yet he accepts the finding of the George R. Crump 1910 Manifest as the clear creator of Pine Valley, and someone obviously just mispelled the middle initial. 

[Mike_Cirba]

Also Tom...

The Hugh Wilson on the 1910 manifest was at least returning from Glasgow, a city in a country that actually HAS GOLF COURSES!!   

[Mike_Cirba]

I think it's clear that we have a problem, Houston...   

"Mike,
>>He is listed as George R. Crump. These lists are mostly hand written
>> so
>> with literally millions of records to transcribe you are going have
>> minor mistakes here and there (thats also true with the census records
>> and I don't see anyone questioning their creditability) . Because
>> there
>> are occasional errors I find that it is wise to alternate how one
>> searches for a person, not only alternating the spelling of the name
>> or
>> middle initial, but also searching by spouse or sibling or traveling
>> companion."





Your Honor...I move for a mistrial!! 

[TEPaul]

"The funny thing is that David has completely discounted the 1910 Manifest I produced earlier showing a Hugh Wilson with a funky handwriting for a middle initial that you thought might be a J and RJ Daley thought might be a D, yet he accepts the finding of the George R. Crump 1910 Manifest as the clear creator of Pine Valley, and someone obviously just mispelled the middle initial. 


MikeC, David and Shivas:

In my opinion, the issue and interest here is not over your disputations on handwriting analysis and type-writer analysis on those ship manifests. I suppose that has some interest in a debate over just the accuracy of ship manifests but this that we are dealling with here on Merion is much more than just that. Essentially you guys are arguing in a ship manifest vacuum.

The thing that somewhat corroborates Hugh Wilson being on that May 1, 1912 ship from Cherbourg is the fact that there has always been that story around Merion that he almost sailed on the Titanic! Logically if Wilson had NOT been on that ship how in the world can you account for the fact that a golf club in  Philadelphia generated that story??

Do you really think a golf club would even think of such a thing if Wilson had been in Philadelpia throughout 1912 and obviously most everyone knew that? Or alternatively do you think no one at Merion knew where the hell he was in 1912 and they fixated on contemporaneous ship manifests as you guys are wondering where in the hell he was? 

As for that being Crump on the ship from Liverpool how do you explain the fact I just posted the recollection of the man who traveled abroad with Crump and he said they ended their trip abroad in Paris?

Does it seem logical to assume that two men who end their trip abroad in Paris would then go to Liverpool England to return home?? 

Furthermore, Pine Valley has a postcard from Crump to his brother-in-law from England dated Dec. 1, 1910. Doesn't that ship manifest that lists a George Crump say he sailed from Liverpool on Dec 1, 1910? ( I think I asked if that manifest says that ship sailed Dec 1, 1910 but I didn't get an answer). If so, do you think George was dumb enough that he thought his postcard would beat him home on a ship faster than the one he was on? 

If any of you are going to consider facts surrounding PV or Merion do not just consider things like ship manifests only. All that's doing is considering ship manifests in a vacuum. If you're considering PV or Merion consider them in their totality of evidence that includes some seemingly irreffutable material evidence that puts these men in other places and at other times than indicated by those ship manifests! Well, Crump anyway. As for Wilson being the guy on that May 1, 1912 ship because of the reasons I just gave above it does seem extremely likely to me anyway.

But what that does not mean to me is that he could not have been over there before and it does not mean to me that that was his only trip abroad for Merion or otherwise, and I think anyone who says they can prove otherwise is full of it.

[Mike_Cirba]

Tom,

You're misunderstanding the paper trail.

The George A. Crump manifest above posted by David Kelly was an honest mistake by him, because in his zeal to prove me wrong he failed to look at it and see that the guy on the manifest was 50 years old and a British citizen! 

So, that one is wrong.

So, where is the George A. Crump manifest.

Well, it can't be found.   Well, at least not quite.

I quoted above from what Tom MacWood told me about how he found it, and it says a lot to me about the vagaries of these things.

He said, essentially;

"Mike,
>>He is listed as George R. Crump. These lists are mostly hand written
>> so
>> with literally millions of records to transcribe you are going have
>> minor mistakes here and there (thats also true with the census records
>> and I don't see anyone questioning their creditability) .   Because
>> there
>> are occasional errors I find that it is wise to alternate how one
>> searches for a person, not only alternating the spelling of the name
>> or
>> middle initial, but also searching by spouse or sibling or traveling
>> companion."


So, Tom...

My point is now that it's impossible for David to tell us that he's found the George Crump 1910 manifest when it's the wrong middle name yet discount the Hugh Wilson manifest from 1910 when it's possibly the wrong middle name, as well.

Keep up with me now, Tom.  Or I may have to ask the judge to recuse you.   


Essentially, Tom M. found the manifest because he knew the name of Crump's travelling companion.   If Crump sailed alone, it would NEVER be found...or, if it was, it would have the EXACT SAME credibility as my Hugh Wilson 1910 manifest above....Mine even sailed from Scotland!   

Or, like the 800 H. Wilson's sailing from England between 1908-1912, it would have been a needle in a research hell haystack.

[TEPaul]

"You refuted my Hugh Wilson from 1910 because the "I", looked like a "D", although Tom Paul thought it looked like a "J"."


Did I say that? I don't think so but if asked I plead the Fifth, Your Honor.

I have no idea why I would say that because I've never had much interest in these ship manifest other than to tell Moriarty for the last year or so that it makes no difference, in my opinion, when Wilson traveled abroad. All I stood by was the accuracy of those Wilson reports on the creation of Merion East and I still do until their accuracy is proven lacking! 

Good Lord, there're a lot of guys on here putting words in others mouths, and for what?

[TEPaul]

MikeC:

I have not really followed these ship manifest arguments because accurate or not I just do not see what relevance they conclusively have to the larger issue of who created Merion East or Pine Valley.

This thread is not about ship manifests, it's about Merion.

And so, I haven't followed the Crump trip or who was right or wrong or why.

But I will tell you this, if the ship manifest from Liverpool that lists a fellow named Crump on it ALSO lists a Joseph Baker traveling with him I would virtually stake my life on the fact that is our George Crump of Pine Valley.

[DMoriarty]

TEPaul,

You probably do not recall but it was in part Merion's Titanic story that motivated me to try and track down the Wilson trip manifest in the first place.   Thanks for the reminder.   

For what it is worth, I do not remember the exact length of delay, but from past research I think the  "SS Philadelphia" was delayed for repairs in Southampton for some time, so it may well have been that Wilson was supposed to travel very close to the same time as the Titanic, and from the same Port [?].   While purely speculative, I guess it is possible that he tried to score a seat on the Titanic when the Philadelphia broke down.  Or maybe he was supposed to be on the Titanic and decided to stay longer to investigate the bents of Le Touquet.
 _____________________

Mike Cirba,

I mean no offense, but your own comments continue to cast doubt on your willingness and/or ability to successfully conduct historical research.   

Take the Crump manifest.  You dismiss the usefulness of the shipping manifests  because [you think] others only found the Crump manifest by using an extraneous fact (the name of his travel companion)   To the contrary, the Crump manifest is a perfect example of just how useful the shipping manifests can be, provided that the researcher employs a little creativity combined with a willingness and ability to place the records in the proper context.

The Crump manifest has more problems than almost any manifest page I have seen, yet two posters were still ultimately able to locate it, and by different paths (I for one did not locate it using his travel companion but by other means.)  To my mind, this is testament to the value of a source, that while not perfect, is incredibly useful. 

Or take the Wilson manifest page.   As TEPaul has just reminded me, I first searched for the Wilson manifest page in part because I had a hint about the context -- the Titanic story.  (Actually I had a number of other hints as well, but the Titanic story is a good example.) 

The problem with your methodology (or lack thereof)  is that when it suits you you demand perfection regardless of context.   And when it suits you you will accept anything regardless of context (Like the English Hugh Wilson traveling to Argentina.)

Also, Mike you come up with some pretty creative speculation (to put it nicely)  but then fail to conduct even the most basic inquiry as to whether the speculation holds up.   Take your "next of kin notification" theory about the supposed importance of the M or S designation.   You haven't even bothered to notice that the "married or single" designation is left blank for Americans on many if not most of the forms both before and after the Titanic disaster. You also have no idea whether the designation was required for Americans or even whether Wilson would ever have known about the mistake.   Yet  you feel justified in throwing out a manifest that, when put in proper context, appears to be an otherwise excellent match. 

Or take any other of your stretched speculation for further examples. 
Like the "traveling with family on a long relaxing vacation to Argentina via Scotland" speculation . . .
or the "no Americans listed on the trip so this English Hugh Wilson must really be  American" speculation . . .
or the "even though every other "D" looks just like this, this on could be an   'I'" speculation
 . .  . or the "Wilson on a boat while Merion was being seeded speculation . . ."

Without proper research it is all just blind speculation and is of little if any use whatsoever.

Oh yeah, you don't understand at all my previous comments about the M or S designation, but I am too tired and busy to spell it out for you. 

[DMoriarty]

Mike,

One more thing along the same lines as above,

I just noticed that you dismiss the Crump manifest because of the age is exactly 10 yrs off, and because, according to you, this George Crump is a British Citizen.   

[Of course the manifest says that he is  a US Citizen of British descent, but I am sure you will dismiss that too as just my interpretation.]

Let me add to the reasons you might further want to dismiss the manifest page. 

1.  That may not be an "A."  Blindly search it and you better be looking for "George R. Crump." 
2.   For Baker, he is listed George too, because Joseph is crossed out and George was written in. 

George Baker traveling with George R. Crump.

Yet three of us found it, probably by three different paths.   And because of what else I know, I am certain that this is the correct manifest.  Without a doubt. 

Welcome to the world of historical research. 

[TEPaul]

I think GOLFCLUBATLASERs who have been reading this thread would undertand when I ask----what really is the purpose of this endless ship manifest argument when it comes to the creation of Merion, how it happened, who did it, and most certainly Macdonald's part in it at any point or any time?

Is it only about David Moriarty trying to shake the basic credibility of the "Philadelphians" (the "Triumverate")?

Is it really about The "Philadephians" (the Triumverate) trying to shake the basic credibility of David Moriarty?

Mike Cirba:

Do you think it makes a difference when Wilson went over there as far as who did Merion East and the accuracy of those Wilson reports?

David Moriarty:

Do you think it makes a difference when Wilson went over there as far as who did Merion East and those Wilson reports?

[TEPaul]

"Yet three of us found it, probably by three different paths.   And because of what else I know, I am certain that this is the correct manifest.  Without a doubt. 

Welcome to the world of historical research."


You know, approximately 30 pages of a thread (this one) and many more hundreds and hundreds of hours spent on other threads, really isn't about finding out about the real history and truth about architecture or any particular golf course.

It's really all about the last few posts on here which speak pretty plainly that-----

I'M A BETTER RESEARCHER THAN YOU ARE!

There's no question of it, and even if we are adults perhaps with an odd passion, we aren't much different than a bunch of immature children.

What is this, Tuesday? I can't wait for Saturday morning so I can watch a bunch of cartoons! 


 

[DMoriarty]

TEPaul,

I cant speak for you, but for me it is about 1) the process and 2) about finding the truth.   

My last post was meant to continue the one before and to  drive home the point that Mike is approaching his research in a manner that I believe is counterproductive the process and finding the truth.

I am as tired of these manifest threads as you and probably view them as even less important that you do.  My participation in this one has been largely in response to Mike's endless (and in my opinion pointless) exploration of the manifests.   

I just have trouble sitting on my hands when Mike misleads about the topic.   

___________________

Mike,  sorry if my above posts sound harsh, but I just really want to move beyond this and get some real work done.   On second thought, that is no excuse because I ought to be able to do that regardless of what you do.

[Phil_the_Author]

David,

How many times have you been challenged on this and other threads to produce the "new information" that you seem to hint at having yet claim to either not or be unable to produce? I am certain from your perspective it is far too many.

Yet, while being critical of conclusions drawn by Mike Cirba, you make the seemingly innocuous statement, "And because of what else I know, I am certain that this is the correct manifest..." 

Isn't that statement at the very heart of all of the criticism's and questioning that have been raised against your conclusions and person?

David, WHAT do you KNOW that apparently NO ONE ELSE does? WHY not SHARE it? WHY CRITICIZE another who is making an honest effort to understand if you can, by simply SHARING what you have, clear up all of this wasted effort and debate?

To me it appears that not doing so is purposefully inflamatory to what has evolved on these threads.

Wouldn't it be in everyone's interests, including your own to share, at least a litlle bit of "what you know?" Even include a brief explanation that it is part of a larger piece that you are preparing for publication that is not ready for sharing in its entirety but should be ready by such-and-such date. Wouldn't that greatly help toward bringing an end to all of the immaturity that has become every Merion discussion?

I recently took Tom Paul to task on one of the threads for what he said and how, and I think this statement of yours also clearly needs some explaining.

You mentioned on a another thread that you weren't quite sure why you came back on GCA.com. Well I certainly hope it was to share knowledge and learning... and I believe you have a major opportunity at this moment, based upon that statement, to do so.
 

[Mike_Cirba]

David,

I can't imagine why anyone finds you pompous, arrogant, condescending, and uncooperative. 

You callously and belittlingly dismiss any hypothetetical alternative that doesn't suit your purposes yet you excuse huge holes and major factual errors in your own materials as just indisputable evidence of your own superior excellence as a researcher to have actually found these erroneous materials in the first place.  You're pretty funny.   

Is it any wonder all of us are having trouble following your circuitous, unwieldly logic and don't jump off the cliff with you to the same dubious conclusions.

The bottom line, David, is that you accept a George Crump manifest from 1910 as accurate yet dismiss a Hugh Wilson manifest from 1910 when they each have the exact same error...a misformed or mispelled middle initial.

You cannot have it both ways and you cannot viably use the 1912 trip as the foundation of your theory whether that was actually THE Hugh Wilson or not because you cannot show that he didn't travel before then.

I truly hope you have more corraborating evidence that someday we might be privileged to see. 

Until then....

[wsmorrison]

Hugh Wilson had reservations on the Titanic for his 1912 return trip, but was detained and missed the boat.

[Joe Bausch]

Hugh Wilson had reservations on the Titanic for his 1912 return trip, but was detained and missed the boat.

Wow.  Every once in a while missing the boat is a good thing!

[wsmorrison]

You are right about that, Joe.  By the way, in the letter from Wilson's daughter, Louise Wilson Russell (b. 1906), she attributes only two other courses outside of Merion, "...Seaview at Absecon, N.J. and a public course somewhere around Philadelphia/ I don't know whether either are good courses.  I am the family renegade-not a gofer (sic)."

Wilson's daughter went on to say that Wilson "...was born on Locust or Spruce Street in West Philadelphia-he never saw Scotland courses until he went there to study the golf courses."

There is a discrepancy here, as other reports indicated that he was born in Trenton, NJ.  I'm sure some of the super sleuths on here can figure out the real place of birth.

[Rich Goodale]

Is it not possible that Hugh Wilson sneaked onto the Titantic (a la Leonardo di Caprio), but in drag (a la Kate Winslet), saved himself by chucking a baby out of a lifeboat and then taking its place and lived on for another 60 years in England under the name of Alister Mackenzie?  That would explain the trip to Argentina........

[TEPaul]

Richard:

I've already been there and completely analyzed and vetted that theory. It's not only possible but extremely likely that Leonardo Di Caprio was actually traveling aboard the Titanic under the name Hugh I. Wilson of Philadelphia and Merion.

I mean, seriously, can you imagine the explaining poor Hugh would have to do if Mrs Wilson found THAT ship manifest? Even if he could easily explain to her that he'd been with her in Philadelphia all through 1912 I don't know how he could explain that he really wasn't boinking Kate Winslet on the Titanic!

But all that is small potatoes to me. I just want to find that approxmately 1 million and 1 carat blue diamond that Kate Winslet's character threw over board around 1999.

Are you a good swimmer Richard the Magnificent? If not, I'll ask my pissboy Morrison to do it.

[Rich Goodale]

Richard:

I've already been there and completely analyzed and vetted that theory. It's not only possible but extremely likely that Leonardo Di Caprio was actually traveling aboard the Titanic under the name Hugh I. Wilson of Philadelphia and Merion.

I mean, seriously, can you imagine the explaining poor Hugh would have to do if Mrs Wilson found THAT ship manifest? Even if he could easily explain to her that he'd been with her in Philadelphia all through 1912 I don't know how he could explain that he really wasn't boinking Kate Winslet on the Titanic!

But all that is small potatoes to me. I just want to find that approxmately 1 million and 1 carat blue diamond that Kate Winslet's character threw over board around 1999.

Are you a good swimmer Richard the Magnificent? If not, I'll ask my pissboy Morrison to do it.

I'm a damn fine swimmer, Tom, but from my point of view, Wayne is more expendable than I am, so give him the gig, with my compliments.

[Mike_Cirba]

Wayne,

That's wild.   I can't imagine that wouldn't have been a life-altering event, for better or worse, going forward through life knowing that you were supposed to be on THAT ship!   

If nothing else, I'd imagine that you'd either feel pre-destined for some greater purpose, or just the luckiest bloke on the planet, or perhaps be weighted with some type of guilt, albeit hardly justifiable.   Actually, you might feel all three at various times.

Wow..

I do wonder though, if any of your information indicates whether he went to Europe prior to this 1912 voyage?



 

[TEPaul]

Rich:

I think you're right, Wayne is the man for the job. I believe he almost made the Olympics in swimming but at this point that probably isn't neceassry. All he'll need to do is just let the air out and he should sink to a depth of about a mile and a half in no time.

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