[RJ_Daley]

Geez, I gotta believe a clever fellow who has a way with words, and a knowledge of drama, could take these "Merion dialogues" and refine them down into a screen play for a movie.  All we need is a smoking revolver, a femme fatale, and a director. 

[Phil_the_Author]

RJ,

Just picture Tom Paul in a long, blonde wig standing there holding a smoking gun with a smile on his face as he looks down on David who had, until a moment before, been sitting in the chair marked "Director."

The last line might be, "I told that pissboy Wayne that if you want something done right you just gotta do it yourself..."

Fade to black... 

[TEPaul]

"Do any of the accounts of Wilson visiting with Macdonald mention specifically that Wilson had never been overseas prior or seen the courses in person?"

No, none I've seen say anything like that.

"Wasn't the value the actual sketches, and discussion about the principles?"

Here's what Wilson said about the sketches et al in his 1916 report:

"We spent two days with Mr Macdonald at his bungalow near the National course and in one night absorbed more ideas in Golf Course construction than we had learned in all the years we had played. Through sketches and explanations on the right principles of the holes that formed the famous courses abroad and had stood the test of time, we learned what was right and what we should try to accomplish with our natural conditions. The next day, we spent going over the course and studying different holes. Every good course that I saw later (apparently he meant "later" than the 'early 1911' that he mentioned the formation of the Construction Committee in the beginning of this paragraph----(words in parentheses mine)) in England and Scotland, confirmed Mr. Macdonald's teaching."
Hugh Wilson, 1916

"What if they had BOTH seen and played these courses prior, much like Noel Freeman visiting with George Bahto, and then comparing notes about Deal and Royal St. George's?"

Anything's possible, but there's nothing written from him like that I'm aware of.
 
 
 

[TEPaul]

"Just picture Tom Paul in a long, blonde wig standing there holding a smoking gun with a smile on his face as he looks down on David who had, until a moment before, been sitting in the chair marked "Director."

The last line might be, "I told that pissboy Wayne that if you want something done right you just gotta do it yourself..."

Fade to black..."


Phillip:

For saying something that incendiary on one of these high-charged Merion threads your options should be:

1. Racked
2. Tarred and Feathered
3. To have your fingernails pulled out

You make the choice!   


I did see David on here earlier today and I did consider shooting him with a blonde wig on but he must have looked at all the ramifications of this new theory and decided to skip the Hell off of here and and go have a serious pow-wow with his new material that's been promised for about a week. 
 

[Mike_Cirba]

Tom,

What would it do to our story if Hugh Wilson returned from overseas in September 1911?

[TEPaul]

"Tom,
What would it do to our story if Hugh Wilson returned from overseas in September 1911?"

MikeC:

Oh, not much really except probably have him miss the entire original routing, design and construction phase of Merion East!

But I don't see that as a real big deal as the rest of the committee with Flynn and maybe Toomey and Pickering and Valentine routed, designed and constructed the course in that time frame while Hugh stayed in touch with them from some of the famous holes abroad by Skype video phone.

[DMoriarty]

I did see David on here earlier today and I did consider shooting him with a blonde wig on but he must have looked at all the ramifications of this new theory and decided to skip the Hell off of here and and go have a serious pow-wow with his new material that's been promised for about a week. 
 

First Tom, I didn't promise you anything.   I know Patrick intimated that something was on its way, but I speak for myself.   

As for your "new" theory, I've barely skimmed it.   A lot of  "maybes"  and speculation jumped out at me, and I am more interested in focusing on fact, for the time being. 

I wonder though, after years of vigorously (an understatement) opposing all else who pointed out the inconsistencies and gaps in Merion's legends, why the change of heart now?   Oh well, better late than never I guess. 

Good Luck.

[TEPaul]

"As for your "new" theory, I've barely skimmed it.   A lot of  "maybes"  and speculation jumped out at me, and I am more interested in focusing on fact, for the time being."

You should probably do a bit more than just skim it. Seriously considering all the interconnected ramifications of this theory might help you understand it better, and also what really happened here with Wilson and the committee with the original routing, design and construction of Merion East. Isn't that what we're concentrating on here to find out? Or are you trying to maintain, once again, that if Wilson did not go abroad before 1912 that proves that there was no way that Wilson and his committee could've done what they said in their reports about the creation of Merion and them doing it and particularly what they said was the essential extent of Macdonald's part in helping them, particularly at NGLA during those two days?  Are you still implying that Macdonald had to do more than anyone has given him credit for including the Wilsons themselves?

"I wonder though, after years of vigorously (an understatement) opposing all else who pointed out the inconsistencies and gaps in Merion's legends, why the change of heart now?   Oh well, better late than never I guess."

We have known about apparent inconsistencies in the timing of Wilson's trip abroad for years and have pointed it out before such as how there was what Tolhurst called the romantic notion for so long that Wilson almost went down in the Titanic on his trip abroad in 1910 since the Titanic didn't sink until April 1912. We know now that was not a romantic notion because you proved via a ship manifest that he did almost go down on the Titanic. So what did you prove? You certainly proved what was believed to be a romantic notion of Wilson almost sailing on the Titanic was true and not a romantic notion.

But what does that mean as far as who did the routing and design and construction of the golf course? That's what we want to know and you should too.

The point of my theory is it doesn't really matter when he went abroad, particularly if he used Macdonald’s 1904 sketches and drawings and survey maps from abroad instead of making his own over there that may've been pretty similar anyway if he followed a recommended itinerary of Macdonald's over there. If they were sketching many of the same holes the sketches couldn't have been radically different with two guys looking at the same holes and drawing them.

My theory would also quite easily explain why some story may've begun at some point later that got into Tolhurst's histories that Wilson brought back sketches and drawings and surveyor's maps that he did abroad when all he may've done was bring Macdonald's back from NGLA to Merion with him.

But this does not answer why Tolhurst wrote in Merion's 1989 history that Wilson went abroad in 1910. We don't know why he wrote that other than he said the Merion 1910 annual report seemed to indicate that. Have you seen that annual report?

Well, we haven't either and we've been looking for it since before we knew you. Apparently, Tolhurst must have seen something in the late 1980s that led him to that conclusion but neither Merion Golf Club seems to have it now nor Merion Cricket Club but we will keep looking? Will you come over here and look for it? Probably not.

It seems all you will do is keep maintaining that Wilson could not have been abroad before 1912 because you can't find a ship manifest for that. That to us is just not conclusive proof at all even if you keep trying to insinuate it is.

But THE real point here is not just additional research but whether the reports by Hugh and Alan Wilson are an accurate portrayal of how Merion East was originally built, who did it, and what Macdonald was responsible for. We believe those reports are accurate and we will continue to until someone can produce factual evidence that they aren't.

Can you do that? If you can we haven't seen your evidence yet! It's as simple as that at this point. 

[TEPaul]

“First Tom, I didn't promise you anything.   I know Patrick intimated that something was on its way, but I speak for myself.”

David:

Really? Then what was the meaning of the following you put on that email chain of Pat Mucci’s just before you came back on this site?”   



"Is gca.com ready for open  and frank discussion about the World's great courses? After having been  encouraged by a poster for whom I have great respect, I’ve been reconsidering  TEPaul’s kind invitation asking a few of us to return to gca.com.    I remain concerned that, despite good intentions, the site may  still remain hostile toward certain ideas that run contrary to the accepted  wisdom of the golfing Establishment, particularly in and around Philadelphia.   
 
What if I come back and pick up where I left off with my  series of threads on the early history of the great Merion East course?    Is the website ready and willing to enter into a frank discussion  about Merion, or for that matter, about Pine Valley, NGLA, Garden City, or any  other of the World’s truly important courses?
 
By way of example,  what if I post that Merion East came into being as an enticement to attract  buyers to a real estate development.
 
. . Or that Merion chose  the precise property based largely on what Macdonald and Whigham thought could  be done with the site.
 
. . Or that the routing plan for Merion  East was in place before the parcel was secured, long before Merion even  appointed Hugh Wilson and his construction committee to build the  course.
 
. . Or that, reportedly, nearly every hole on the East  Course was patterned after famous holes abroad.
 
. . Or that the  revised 10th hole was not the only hole at Merion East where the yardage was  significantly overstated; the total yardage at the early Merion East was off  by hundreds of yards, probably due to faulty measuring  methodology.

While any such posts—or posts that go much  further—would be accompanied by significant factual support, I would welcome  any challenges, corrections, and discussion, so long as civilized, reasonable,  and aimed at a furtherance of understanding of gca.
 
What say  you?  Is gca.com a place for open and frank discussion of the world’s  great golf courses, or not?
 
[Patrick’s mailing list looks like a  pretty good representation of long time gca.com posters, and he gave me  permission to address the questions to you all.  Many of you know me, and  some of you don’t. Regardless I’d appreciate any and all comments and  concerns.]
 
Thanks. 
David"

[Joe Bausch]

Dear David (and Pat Mucci),

WE'RE WAITING!.... [for your new data; which I think you have but I have no idea why you aren't presenting it other than you two guys are programmed much differently than me]

Sincerely,
Judge Elihu Smails
----------------------------

[Mike_Cirba]

Tom & Joe,

Don't waste your breath or your fingertips.

David has something, but that's not the point.

The point is exactly what he alludes to in his "change of heart" message.

It's not about the information.

It's about the petty, vindictive game of gotcha to Wayne, Tom Paul, and by now, me, I'm quite sure.

Thank God at least his role in this embarrassment is on full public display.   It's just a shame that the others who are feeding David and aiding and abetting this waste of time aren't quite as transparent.   They should be ashamed of themselves.

[TEPaul]

Now, now Mikey, don't go there or you will be accused of acting like this guy TEPaul and his pissboy sidekick from Merion and all those other Philadelphians who've been accused of minimizing outside architects to unfairly promote local ones.

For my part, if this discussion on Merion's original phase architecture and perhaps the record of it from the Wilsons' reports and how they treat Macdonald's part in Merion at Ardmore, is going to continue at all I think we need to hear from David Moriarty along about now regarding any new info he has or else have him state what his purpose is this time to discuss the architectural record of Merion. If he doesn't want to do either of those I guess there's no more to discuss with him on the first phase Merion architectural record.

Does anyone else have anything of interest they'd like to discuss about Merion's first architectural phase (app 1911 to 1915-6)?

If he just wants to talk about some inconsistencies in the Merion history books (1989 and 2005) of Tolhurst from that Merion first phase architecture I don't see the relevance of that as we've been aware of a couple of those inconsistencies from Tolhurst for years and they are probably quite explainable (see my posts of today) as well as unimportant regarding architectural attribution.

If he thinks his single trip suggestion has some architectural attribution interest to discuss he should say what he thinks that interest is. I don't think it matters at all if Wilson made his own drawings abroad from some of the courses and holes Macdonald may've told him to visit before beginning Merion or if he simply used Macdonald's  that he collected abroad around 1904 or even just used some of the ideas and principles he and some members of his committee discussed with Macdonald in that two day visit to NGLA they all mentioned so prominently and then just came back to Philadelphia and set to work themselves applying them at Merion from the spring of 1911 to September 1911 when they grassed the course and let it grown in for a year before opening for play in September 1912.

[Mike_Cirba]

Tom,

Would you like to hear an alternative theory of what happened at Merion between 1910 and 1912 opening?   

It's spurred by an odd manifest I saw earlier today, combined with some of your theory about Macdonald's maps and plans, etc. that you posted this morning.   In the interest of time, perhaps I'll just copy and paste, and if anyone has questions, I'll elaborate over the weekend;

Here goes.

Gentlemen,

I wholly agree with Wayne's perspective, although we probably differ slightly on the % basis of credit we give to Wilson and Flynn, respectively, but the difference is trifling.

I also agree that David's methods are egregious, his data suspect, and his conclusions biased, but there is a serious question here that still begs explanation, and it is something I find fascinating, apart from the person who brought it to our collective attention.

In that light, as I re-examine the evidence, I am becoming more and more convinced that Wilson's trip overseas was during the summer of 1911, not 1910.

For years, we have discounted 1911 because we are thinking in modern terms of how courses today are routed, built, and seeded, and then left to grow.

I don't think that's what happened to Merion East, whatsoever,.

Joe's research yesterday brought us the Tillinghast article from April 1911, in which he talks about the possible difficulties of building a great inland course in Philadelphia from an agronomic standpoint, discusses his belief that it's indeed possible to build a championship course in Philly, and says the plans he's seen for the new Merion course are reason for optimism.

That tells us that by this time...spring 1911, there was at least some type of rough routing, or perhaps a general plan for construction, and this is where I think Tom Paul's theory becomes important.   I do believe that by this point Macdonald, et.al. were involved.   In fact, when "Far and Sure" (who I'm virtually certain was Tillinghast) wrote an article for American Golfer magazine after playing Merion for the first time in the fall of 1912 (see the January 1913 article and the pictures I sent...there are still full complements of leaves on the trees when he played there in 1912 and penned the article (TIllinghast LOVED photography and took all his own pics), but it didn't get published til January 1913), said, "Two years ago, Mr. Charles Macdonald, who has been of great assistance in an advisory way, told me Merion would have one of the best inland courses he had ever seen, but every new course is 'one of the best in the country' and one must see to believe after trying it out.   ".   

By that timeline, Macdonald would have told Tillinghast this in the fall of 1910, which is consistent with the timeframe for  Macdonald's reported involvement.   We know that in November, 1910, the Philadelphia Inquirer reported on the coming new course for Merion and the land sale to Horatio Lloyd that made it possible.   The article went on to say, "Before the purchase of the ground, Mr. Lloyd had it examined by Charles B. Macdonald, H.J. Whigham, and H.H. Barker, the well-known golf players, all of whom have pronounced that the ground can be transformed into a golf course the equal of Myopia, Boston, or Garden City, Long Island.  Work will be commenced at once, a clubhouse will be erected, and no expense will be spared by the Merion Cricket Club in the construction of this course, while every endeavor will be made to have this the leading championship course of America."

So, it is now autumn 1912, a full two years after Macdonald proclaimed its future greatness, and the course has just now opened.   "Far and Sure"  (Tillinghast) goes to play the course with Howard Perrin and Hugh WIlloughby.   What does he find?  Is it "PineValleyian" in its obvious greatness and incredible scope and attention to detail?   Even of the NGLA-variety?   Apparently, not exactly.   Here's what he has to say.

"It is too early to attempt an analytical criticism of the various holes for many of them are but rough drafts of the problems, conceived by the construction committee, headed by Hugh I. Wilson.   Mr. Wilson visited many prominent British courses last summer (recall this was almost certainly written right after playing in the fall 1912, so he would have been talking about summer, 1911), searching for ideas, many of which have been used. 

This is to me extremely, extremely important.   Let's for a moment re-examine the contemporaneous reports in the newspapers in the next few years;

Philadelphia Public Ledger – 10/12/13 – William Evans

“Hugh I. Wilson, chairman of the Green Committee at the Merion Cricket Club and who is responsible for the wonderful links on the Main Line, has been Mr. Geist’s right hand man and has laid out the Sea View course.  Mr. Wilson some years ago before the new course at Merion was constructed visited the most prominent courses here and in Great Britain and has no superior as a golf architect.

Philly Inquirer 12/06/14 – Joe Bunker

“Hugh I. Wilson, for a number of year’s chairman of the Green Committee at Merion Cricket Club has resigned.  He personally constructed the two courses at Merion, and before the first was built he visited every big course in Great Britain and this country. “

Philly Inquirer 4/23/16 – Joe Bunker

“Nearly every hole on the course (Merion East) has been stiffened (for the US Am) so that in another month or two it will resemble a really excellent championship course.  Hugh Wilson is the course architect and Winthrop Sargent is chairman of the Green Committee.  These two men have given a lot of time and attention to the changes and improvements.  Before anything was done to the course originally, Mr. Wilson visited every golf course of any note not only in Great Britain, but in this country as well, with the result that Merion’s East Course is the last word in golf course architecture.  It has been improved each year until not it is almost perfect from a golf standpoint.


Check out the wording..."Before anything was done to the course originally"..."before the course was BUILT", "before the new course at Merion was CONSTRUCTED".    

I'm beginning to believe that the wording meant that some type of rough outline for the course existed in very primitive, sketched out and cleared form, probably by sometime summer 1911, and possibly from a topo map provided by Macdonald as per Tom Paul's theory.

I just don't think it makes any sense that Wilson went overseas in the winter of 1912 as Moriarty believes, but instead for an extended period in the summer of 1911 as the "American Golfer" article and all the men who knew Hugh Wilson exactly said and reported at the time.

In the October, 1912 article of American Golfer, right after playing there for the first time, "Far and Sure" reports on the opening of Merion East on Sept. 14th, 1912, and states "The new eighteen hole course of the Merion Cricket Club, which has been under construction for more than a year was thrown open to members..."

That exact line tells us that the course was actually under construction in the period between September 1911 (and some brief period prior), and September 1912.    This would fit EXACTLY with the timeline of the manifest showing Wilson returning in Sept 1912, AFTER a basic plan was possibly produced by Macdonald on topo in late 1910, early 1911, and if the accounts of his time overseas are correct, it would have placed Wilson in Europe during the period of April or May 1912, returning in September...full of ideas and sketches of how to actually implement "the right principles of holes that formed the famous courses abroad and what we should try to accomplish with our natural conditions."

[Phil_the_Author]

Mike,

I must respectfully disagree with you. Not in your supposition about the Merion timeline and Wilson's trip, but in your belief that "Far and Sure" was Tilly. He wasn't. The only things he authored for the American Golfer all bore the nome-de-whatever "Hazard."

Also, in the specifics of the January 1913 article you mention, "Far and Sure" begins by relating an adventure on (ironically enough) an ocean voyage a number of years before to America from what appears to be the U.K.

In it he mentions severe problems to the extent that he refered to the ocean liner as being "crippled," and making little headway under sail. Also, he writes that "we had lost our bearings and a fog that could almost be cut with a knife..." surrounded them. He stated that they finally reached the harbor of St. John's in Newfoundland where they were able to make repairs.

This never happened to Tilly. We know this for a variety of reasons. First, Tilly never went overseas alone, always taking his family (1890-1? with parents, 1895, '98 & 01 with wife and daughter and parents) with him. Not only does the writer not mention family as Tilly did in almost every article of the many he wrote about his trips to the U.K. but, more importantly, his family is unaware of this as ever having happened.   

The article is also complimentary of Macdonald. In 1938 when C.B. died, Tilly wrote an obituary about him in the Pacific Coast Golfer Magazine in which he mentions how he had a fundamental difference with "Charley" in his design philosophy and belief in the over-riding importance of using templates rather than letting the terrain dictate the design. He said that he was especially vociferous about this in his early years as a designer.

In later years when he wrote in Golf Illustrated, a series of articles appeared under the column titled "Our Green Committee." These were comments and answers to submitted questions and were answered by the "Editor." There were, however, a number of occasions where part of these articles and even some intheir entirety were authored by Tilly. But this was for a different magazine and more than a few years later.

Now this has no effect whatsoever on your hypothesis regarding Merion's creation, but "Far and Sure" was Travis and not Tilly.

[Mike_Cirba]

Hi Phil,

I understand your contention about "Far and Sure", but it does seem very odd to me that after the article on Merion, there is an article on the "Mid-Surrey" mounding at Shawnee, complete with pics, as well as an article on Olde York Road CC, which Tilly was just about to start work at.

I'm not sure who else in the world at that time would have been familiar with those details?

Also, as much as Tillinghast had serious differences with Macdonald as they went along, in 1910 I can't imagine anyone having much in the way of difficulty with Macdonald from a golf architecture standpoint, as his NGLA was being hailed, rightly so, as the best course in America.   Besides, I'm not sure what exactly the article says that is so incredibly complimentary of Macdonald...it almost takes him to task for saying that Merion will be the best new inland course in America, saying essentially...yeah, yeah...that's what everyone says.

I believe that it was only later, when architecture became a bit more sophisticated and refined, due to the influence of men like Tillinghast, Wilson, Flynn, et.al., that the large dichotomy between the more forced, templated style of Macdonald and the more natual style of the others led to a breach in their respective opinions of each other's work.

I truly do not believe Walter Travis had the type of insider knowledge of Philly golf in 1912 - 1913, when he was mostly a competitor, that was required to write the "Far and Sure" articles.

I'd be interested in anything else you might have to dissuade my opinion. 

[DMoriarty]

TEPaul:

Again, if there is anything new factually, I'd love to hear about it.  But otherwise I'll continue to focus on other matters.   

As for what you interpret as a "promise" from me, it wasn't.  Rather it was an honest expression of my concern that you and other Philadelphians were too close to the Merion subject to have frank yet civilized discussion about it.  Given what has happened since my return, my concerns were merited.   

As for the list of possible topics I might address, they will be addressed when they are ready and when I have time to address them.    I have many other things going on and am trying to put together something coherent as fast as I can.     

[Phil_the_Author]

Mike,

Let's address one point at a time:

You wrote, "I understand your contention about "Far and Sure", but it does seem very odd to me that after the article on Merion, there is an article on the "Mid-Surrey" mounding at Shawnee, complete with pics, as well as an article on Olde York Road CC, which Tilly was just about to start work at... I'm not sure who else in the world at that time would have been familiar with those details?"

Actually, quite a number of people would have been, starting with his Editor, Walter Travis. In speaking of the photographs of the Mid-Surrey mounding the same article mentions, "The plan of this hole was sketched in the last issue of the American Golfer..." It was in the column titled "Middle Atlantic States" and is authored by Hazard, NOT Far and Sure [December 1912]. "Hazard" was the regular columnist responsible for the "Eastern Pennsylvania Notes" but would sometimes pen "Middle Atlantic States" instead. In those issues there weren't "Eastern Pennsylvania Notes."

In addition, the same article states about Old York, "The Old York Road Country Club are preparing to bunker their course. For the PAST TWO YEARS they have been patiently trying it out and very properly permitting the hazards to appear with time..."

Tilly had already begun working there and many knew of what was being done.

You also wrote, "Also, as much as Tillinghast had serious differences with Macdonald as they went along, in 1910 I can't imagine anyone having much in the way of difficulty with Macdonald from a golf architecture standpoint, as his NGLA was being hailed, rightly so, as the best course in America.   Besides, I'm not sure what exactly the article says that is so incredibly complimentary of Macdonald...it almost takes him to task for saying that Merion will be the best new inland course in America, saying essentially...yeah, yeah...that's what everyone says..."

I disagree with this conclusion. Tilly had an immense ego and believed quite strongly that his philosophies of design were most correct. Remember, he had been competing against CB in matches for a good number of years even before he began designing courses. They knew each other well and, I am certain, probably discussed design ideas on many an occasion.

Remember, too, that NGLA was featured in many consecutive issues of AG in discussing it's design and these included photographs of the hole models. Tilly would have been having animated discussions of this design style then with both CB & others for several years PRIOR to the writing of the "Far and Sure" article in question. Again, and I'll have to look up what he wrote in his article about Macdonald's death and send it to you, but he specifically mentioned his differences of opinions in design philosophy that he argued with him about for many, many years going all the way back to his start as a designer.

Now as for what "Far and Sure" wrote as being complimentary of CB, consider, "Two years ago, Mr. Chas. B. Macdonald who had been of GREAT ASSISTANCE..."

Another point, "Far and Sure" mentions that it was "Not until a month ago did I find the opportunity to see it..." yet he also states that it was "two years ago..." that CB told him about it.

Is it reasonable that Tilly would have seen the course for the very first time just one month before? If the article was written in October of 1912 (as seems a reasonable guestimate), that would mean that tilly would have first stepped onto the course in September of 1912, yet hadn't he written of its design and construction as one having seen it well before this?

That alone proves that "Far and Sure" could not be Tilly.

Finally, once again return to what was written in the very first paragraph of the article about the problems on his earlier sea voyage. That never happened to Tilly according to any relatives or information that can be found on the ships he sailed on (I've begun checking and will continue doing so).

[TEPaul]

"TEPaul:
Again, if there is anything new factually, I'd love to hear about it.  But otherwise I'll continue to focus on other matters."

David:

Something new factually? I thought that's what you said you had. But if you're talking about us just supplying you with more factual information I'm not sure what you mean by that. Would you call this statement from Hugh Wilson's 1916 report on the creation of Merion something factual you haven't been aware of? Do you even have that report of Wilson's?

"Our problem was to lay out the course, build and seed eighteen greens, and fifteen fairways. Three fairways were in old pasture turf. These will be mentioned later. We collected all the information we could from local committees and greenskeepers, and started in the spring of 1911 to construct the course on ground which had largely been farm land."

Since the "our" or "we" he constantly refers to in his report and numerous letters was what he described in the beginning of his report as the Merion Construction Committee it would seem this is fairly factual. Were you aware of those remarks and if so do you find something incorrect of inconsistent about them?   

"As for what you interpret as a "promise" from me, it wasn't.  Rather it was an honest expression of my concern that you and other Philadelphians were too close to the Merion subject to have frank yet civilized discussion about it.  Given what has happened since my return, my concerns were merited."

I don't believe I said anything about you promising something new but I did produce on this thread in post #89 rather extensive remarks to that effect from you. What happened to that?

You think we are 'too close' to the Merion subject to have a frank discussion? That, for sure, is some pretty interesting logic.  Well, perhaps you should spend about seven years and a couple of thousand hours on the research of Merion as Wayne has before you begin to try to have a civilized and intelligent discussion about it. Weren't you the one talking about researching and digging for historical information? What do you think we've been doing with Merion for about the last seven years?

Again, if you have anything that casts doubt on the reports of the Wilsons of how Merion was routed, designed and constructed you should produce it or I can't see what it is you'd like to discuss or can discuss.   

[Mike_Cirba]

Phil,

Just a quick thought this morning.   When "Far and Sure" said that Macdonald "had been of great assistance in an advisory way", wasn't he just parroting what the Merion Committee said and likely told him?  According to the WIlson brothers' reports, Macdonald was indeed of great assistance to their efforts, as they both outlined in writing.   I don't think this was refective on complimenting Macdonald's design style, but simply his cooperation and acting as an educational resource.

I'm not sure when Tillinghast first played Merion.   I know Joe has been going through his Public Ledger articles and his first mention of the course was in April 1911, when he says he saw some plans.  

We know the course didn't actually open until 16-17 months later, so depending on what his workload and other endeavors was like during that time, it may be that he didn't actually get back there and play it until it opened in the fall of 1912.

That doesn't seem to be very far-fetched to me.  Still, I would not question that you know Tillinghast's writing far better than I do.  If nothing else this would be another voice crediting the course work to Hugh WIlson at that time.

Phil...can you tell me the date of the "American Cricketer" article where TIllinghast reviews Merion? 

Here is what I have about it from Jim Finegan's book;

"Tillinghast reviewed the new course at length in the American Cricketer and was generally appreciative of its merits;

"...16th, 17th, 12th, and 3rd are the best holes.   The old quarry, which is traversed by the last three holes is a wonderfully effective natural hazard an makes these holes a fine finish...The yawning quarry makes the 17th look fearsome enough but the terror is more imaginary than real.  The 16th is a corker..It is a real gem...If your drive is a good one, before you stretches the old quarry, its cliff-like sides frowning forbiddingly.  Just beyond, and sparkling like an emerald, is the green, calling for a shot that is brave and true.  It seems almost like a coy but flirtatious maiden with mocking eyes flashing at you from over her fan, and as you measure the distance between, you are fired with the ambition to show off a bit..."

"No one will ever play Merion without taking away the member of No. 16..." (and then goes on to describe the 3rd, 7th, and 13th - my words)

Then Finegan writes;

"Summing up, Tillinghast pointed out that comparatively few bunkers were yet in place, then concluded on a somewhat muted note:  "I believe that Merion will have a real championship course, and Philadelphia has been crying out for one for many years.  The construction committee, headed by Hugh I. Wilson, has been thorough in its methods and deserves the congratulations of all golfers.""

"One aspect of the new course may have dampened the enthusiasm of some observers.  Holes 10, 11, and 12 all played across Ardmore Avenue."

I'm now more curious than ever to find the date of that article, because much like "Far and Sure" he seems to be describing a course that is still in very primitive stages as far as actual features like bunkering.

Thanks for your feedback!

[Mike_Cirba]

Actually, as I go back to the American Golfer article by "Far and Sure" and compare it against the American Cricketer article by Tillinghast, it's interesting how they both used very fanciful, almost mythologic language to describe it;


"The old quarry, which is traversed by the last three holes is a wonderfully effective natural hazard an makes these holes a fine finish...The yawning quarry makes the 17th look fearsome enough but the terror is more imaginary than real.  The 16th is a corker..It is a real gem...If your drive is a good one, before you stretches the old quarry, its cliff-like sides frowning forbiddingly.  Just beyond, and sparkling like an emerald, is the green, calling for a shot that is brave and true.  It seems almost like a coy but flirtatious maiden with mocking eyes flashing at you from over her fan, and as you measure the distance between, you are fired with the ambition to show off a bit..." - AW Tillinghast in American Golfer


"A number of years ago your correspondent (is it strange that Travis would have thought of himself as a "Correspondent" to American golfer when it was his mag?) was a passenger on a crippled ocean liner and for nearly a week we had been making but little headway under sail.  For several days we had lost our bearings and a fog that could almost be cut with a knife had settled on us.  At last it lifted and we found that we were quite close to the Newfoundland coast, and we finally made the harbor of St. Johns for repairs.  I shall never forget that harbor.   Rocks, gray and forbidding, on each side came down to the beating surf, but between them in the distance nestled the little port in the green lap of the Newfoundland hills.  When for the first time I saw the sixteenth green on the new Merion course, a brilliant patch of color just beyond the opening in the dark walls of the old quarry hole, like a flash my thoughts flew back over twenty years and once again I was standing by the rail, joyfully regarding the welcome haven of St. Johns." - "Far and Sure" - American Cricketer

[TEPaul]

Phil:

Do you think Travis and Macdonald were speaking to one another when Travis was the editor of American Golfer? They did have a pretty serious disagreement and falling out over that Schnectedy putter controversy that even the President of the United States got into commenting on. And of course Macdonald let him go from his original position of collaboratting on the design of NGLA.

[TEPaul]

Mike:

Email David Moriarty and ask him to prove which ship that was and when it sailed that was crippled for a time. With his faith in the accuracy of shipping records finding out which ship Far and Sure was on should be a snap for him and then we can cross check known crossings for Travis or Tillie or other likely suspects and figure out exactly who this Far and Sure really was. Apparently David has nothing new on Merion at this time so this could be a good new assignment for him. 

[Mike_Cirba]

Tom,

If he wants to contribute to our collective discussion/search, he's more than welcome.  Contrary to his opinion, he's always been welcome.   He just doesn't want to hear challenges or other interpretations that differ from his own and now he's playing a game to try and make us look foolish.   Let's continue to be productive here and not get into that, difficult as that may be.

Some interesting things about Tillinghast and Travis in relation to the "Far and Sure" and the review of Merion in American Golfer.   The writer mentions that the stranding of the Ocean liner took place 20 years ago, or roughly in 1892.

Walter Travis was born in 1862, so he would have been old enough, and he emigrated to the US in 1884, at roughly 22 years of age.

I'm not sure what sea route he would have taken from Austrailia...whether it would have crossed Newfoundland, or how much sea travel Travis did at that time.   The only other thing we know for certain in this time frame is that he didn't pick up a club until the age of 35, in October 1896, so he wouldn't have travelled overseas to play golf.

Does anyone know what he did for a living in those years, or how much he might have travelled abroad in the 1892 timeframe?

In the case of Tillinghast, he was born in 1874, and we do know he travelled overseas a bit, to Scotland and England primarily.   In 1892 he would have been a young man of 18 years old.   Phil...are there any accounts of him travelling to Scotland around that timeframe?

I'm not trying to challenge...just trying to understand better who "Far and Sure" was for sure. 

[TEPaul]

"I'm not sure what sea route he would have taken from Austrailia...whether it would have crossed Newfoundland, or how much sea travel Travis did at that time."

MikeC:

Crossed Newfoundland on the way from Australia?? Are you kidding me? That's not a crippled ship, that's a captain who needs a bigtime course in Navigation 101 in how to steer a ship!!!

From Australia to over here by ship they probably would've gone around the Cape of Good Hope or Cape Horn or whatever that thing is called at the bottom of A-Freak-a. I guess the captain of that ship could've tried to take the Suez Canal into the Mediterranean. I don't see why he should've worried about the fact that it hadn't been built yet. Walter wasn't a very big guy but that shouldn't be much of a problem for a future championship golfer to drag a fair sized ship across the Suez. Basically, if you haven't portaged about a 250 foot ship across a 100 mile desert you just aren't a man yet.

Back in those days there was basically no way to get from Australia to over here. I thought you knew that.   

[Joe Bausch]

I recently unearthed from microfilm a series of articles in the 1911 Philadelphia Public Ledger by ADub.  What follows is the "maiden article" as he calls it, which was his first in a Philly newspaper.  It is at the end where he talks a bit about Merion.  The date of this is April 30, 1911:

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