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Ran Morrissett

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Hugh Wilson's overseas voyage
« Reply #125 on: April 21, 2008, 07:52:54 PM »
My good friend Tom MacWood asked me to post the following:

"There has been a some misinformation surrounding the entire Crump episode, and I'd like to set the record straight (once again).

If you go back and read some of the old threads on this topic you'll find that TE's story has "evolved" over time. His newest version is a good one. I can assure you during that same time my story has remained remarkably consistent. This is what happened.

Like many others I had heard the rumor of Crump's suicide, and being a naturally curious person I wanted to find out if the story was true or not. I don't recall specifically what prompted me to begin looking, if anything, but whatever the case I began searching for the truth.

During that process I contacted someone working in the Merchantville city office (Crump died in Merchantville). I told him I was researching Crump and Pine Valley, he immediately laughed, a strange reaction I thought at the time, and then there was a pause, he then said "he killed himself." I was a startled - I had not even brought up his death in my introduction. I guess he surmised someone looking for info on Crump in Merchantville would only be interested in one thing. We talked for a while about PV and other subjects. He also gave me the phone number of his father and a retired judge who he said were both interested in Crump & PV. I spoke to them but they were more casual fans than possessors of any historical info.

That weekend I shared my discovery with Paul Turner and Ran Morrissett. As you know Paul has an interest in the history of PV, and I often talk with Ran. I distinctly remember Ran's reaction because it was so nonchalant (you can confirm this with either man).

End of story.

I had no plans of writing anything at that point. I did not discuss writing anything on this subject with Ran (which I always do) or anyone, including TE.

As far as calling the man in Merchantville and misleading him, over the years I have called many people: RTJ trying to find out the whereabouts of The Spirit of St.Andrews, Stanley Thompson's widow in a nursing home, the current residents of Horace Hutchinson's cottage, John McCoy who worked for MacKenzie, Perry Maxwell's daughter, Wendell Miller's son, etc. None of them have ever ended up in any of my essays. That is not my style. My essays are based on written documentation. And when I introduce myself I let them know I am researcher/writer interested in the history of golf architecture ~ I don't mislead. If I ever decided to quote someone I would certainly get their permission prior to.

One and half years later I sent a private IM to TE, in it I was trying to make a point on a disagreement we were having. The disagreement had to do with our understanding of architectural history, it was my view that we have only uncovered the tip of iceberg. I then rattled off about seven or eight newly discovered facts, one of which was Crump's suicide. Immediately after I sent the message I went out of town on business.

A day or two later when I returned, I had about a dozen emails from TEP, I had several voice mails from him and I also discovered he had been calling me out on GCA regarding my claim Crump killed himself (he ignored the six or so other claims which were frankly just as controversial). He was demanding proof.

I had been home less than hour when my phone rang, TEP on the line, it started off fairly calm, but then disintegrated. He began demanding I tell him where I got my info, initially I refused. He then began screaming that I was a fraud and a liar, and that he would spend the rest of his days proving it. A jelling match ensued much to the horror and then delight of my wife and children. Eventually I told them (Wayne & TE) where I got the information on the condition that if they were to follow up Wayne would be the one. I thought Wayne would be more discreet and diplomatic when approaching this person (I sent Wayne a message explaining why I wanted him involved).

My bad. Neither one of them had any intentions of finding the truth their focus was on proving something about me. The two of them scared the living crap out of this poor gentleman. One of things they told him was I was planning on writing about the suicide in an article and I would use him as my primary source (I had no plans to do either). Understandably he denied he told me anything and denied that he had any info on the supposed suicide.

TE and Wayne then went on a campaign to assassinate my credibility on GCA - revealing their findings in Merchantville. It was only at that point I decided I must find definitive proof and write an essay in order to preserve my reputation. I eventually found the death certificate and wrote the essay. Of course during these five or six months I was harassed privately and on GCA, and was strongly urged by TE, Bob Crosby and others not to write it. If you recall it was during this time that TE threatened to write a counter essay about my A&C Golf article. We are still waiting for that essay.

So if you enjoyed the Crump essay, you can thank TE for creating the circumstances that inspired it, on the other hand if you believe it was a bad idea and inappropriate, again thank TE.

I'm not sure what it is about Philadelphia and their beloved legends that generates so much emotion and irrational behavior, unfortunately we seem to be going down that road again. Apparently no one learned anything from the Crump affair. As I told them at the time as I was being criticized for approaching the subject, why don't you wait until the essay is written before you begin attacking its speculated contents. Attacking someone for just deciding to write an essay is crazy, especially when you have no idea what the author will find and what he will write. You would think those associated with the USGA architectural archive would be the last people stifling research and condemning those who seek the truth.

If there are any questions about the facts and/or my timeline please check with Ran, Paul or Tommy N, they were kept abreast of the happenings at the time.

I'd also like to point out the essay was no minor documentation of Crump's life, considerable research went into it, and the suicide was not overly emphasized IMO, which could have easily been the case under the circumstances. "

TM

wsmorrison

Re: Hugh Wilson's overseas voyage
« Reply #126 on: April 21, 2008, 09:22:39 PM »
Most of Tom MacWood's recollections are inaccurate.  Some of them, particularly the follow up conversation I had with the Merchantville civil servant and my "character assassination" fall well below inaccurate remembrances.  In fact, a number are complete fabrications with no basis in truth whatsoever.   The fact that he asks the founder and administrator of this site to post something so utterly false disturbs me.  Such a posting by Ran with his tacit authority mistakenly gives credibility to Tom MacWood's account at the expense of the truth and my reputation.  I think you should have given such an action second and third thoughts, Ran.  You should have at least checked with Tom Paul and I and gotten our side of the story.  Sadly the perception is, even if the truth is not, that you have taken sides on this issue and passed judgment.   Too bad you chose to promote the wrong side of truth and set such a poor precedent for the sake of your "good friend."
« Last Edit: April 21, 2008, 09:24:50 PM by Wayne Morrison »

DMoriarty

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Hugh Wilson's overseas voyage
« Reply #127 on: April 21, 2008, 10:01:40 PM »
You should have at least checked with Tom Paul and I and gotten our side of the story.  Sadly the perception is, even if the truth is not, that you have taken sides on this issue and passed judgment.   Too bad you chose to promote the wrong side of truth and set such a poor precedent for the sake of your "good friend."
Wayne,

Tom MacWood's post was in response to one of TEPaul's.  TEPaul told  the other side of the story, but then later deleted it.   But many had seen it. 

You might have missed the TEPaul post, but it was quite telling.  It even might have some relevance on these recent Merion threads.   

The good news is that I think I may be able to resurrect it.   I assume that'd address your concerns about getting out both side of the story?

How about I post it here so that everyone can understand the context of Tom MacWood's response?  That'd only be fair, wouldn't it? 

In the mean time, let me check with Tom to make sure he doesnt mind.     
« Last Edit: April 21, 2008, 10:03:23 PM by DMoriarty »
Golf history can be quite interesting if you just let your favorite legends go and allow the truth to take you where it will.
--Tom MacWood (1958-2012)

TEPaul

Re: Hugh Wilson's overseas voyage
« Reply #128 on: April 21, 2008, 10:25:27 PM »
"The good news is that I think I may be able to resurrect it.   I assume that'd address your concerns about getting out both side of the story?"

David:

Don't worry about it. I'm almost positive I saved it and if so I'll put it back on this thread or wherever if that's what people want. If I can't find it I'll be glad to get in touch with you to get you to put it back. I took it off of whatever thread it was on because it didn't seem to be accomplishing anything worthwhile, particularly from you, and from me, and I was trying to avoid another dredging up of all that old stuff again. The only reason I put my side of that Crump DC thing up in the first place the other day is because you mentioned it again on one of these Merion threads.

Frankly, I don't really recall that you ever had any part of what went on back there between MacWood and the Merchantville township and me and MacWood and me and the Merchantville township so one really does wonder why you think you need to get involved and bring it up a year or more later when at best all you could've ever known was one side of it.
« Last Edit: April 21, 2008, 10:27:30 PM by TEPaul »

wsmorrison

Re: Hugh Wilson's overseas voyage
« Reply #129 on: April 21, 2008, 10:36:20 PM »
Do whatever you want, David.  I think any sense of what is fair has already been discarded.  There is no good news in any of this.  MacWood's attack comes out of the clear blue.  I don't know the thread that was deleted and I don't care if it is resurrected.  I didn't write it but I was brought into this disgusting activity.  I do not now nor would I ever care to air both sides of the story on this site.  It is an old and tired feud.

I was concerned that Ran did not have both sides of the story before he decided to take steps to post one side.  He should have kept this a private matter and not taken the ridiculous step of promoting one side of the story on the site.  Neither side should be disseminated.  The whole thing has been told and retold.  The only things new are the misrepresentations and lies that consist of this latest tale, that was previously told in emails to a select group.  Unfortunately I was included.  I have no idea why it is being played out to a larger audience.

The saddest thing of all is Ran's role in all of this.  His was not a gentlemanly act nor was it an intelligent one.

Patrick_Mucci_Jr

Re: Hugh Wilson's overseas voyage
« Reply #130 on: April 21, 2008, 10:39:37 PM »
Wayno,

I think Ran was a messenger since Tom MacWood no longer posts on GCA.com.

If the ENTIRE exchange is available, it should be posted, so that we can clear this up and move on.

wsmorrison

Re: Hugh Wilson's overseas voyage
« Reply #131 on: April 21, 2008, 10:44:34 PM »
That is nonsense, Pat yet you buy into it.  Ran posting someone's rambling and deceptive perspectives is a lot different than you and I posting them.  Sorry, pal, but that's the honest truth and you should readily realize that.   Ran is the founder and administrator of this site.  His intervention carries the weight of authority and credibility that nobody else on this site has.  He abused his role for a sorry cause.

Patrick_Mucci_Jr

Re: Hugh Wilson's overseas voyage
« Reply #132 on: April 21, 2008, 10:55:00 PM »
Wayne,

I understand your dissatisfaction with Ran's posting.

But, again, if the entire exchange is available, it should be posted to set the record straight.

Then.... we can move on.

RJ_Daley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Hugh Wilson's overseas voyage
« Reply #133 on: April 22, 2008, 12:18:01 AM »
Gentlemen, as a bystander who has thoroughly enjoyed all of your respective efforts to research and contribute your findings to the GCA.com group at large, it is hard to continue to observe these threads start to tamp down only to then fire up again in animosity. 

If we are to debate the merits of what real historical events that have happened surrounding these seminal golf masterpiece creations, we have to take responsibility to say our piece and present our findings without personal attacks. 

While I completely believe it is possible that some of these activities and what was said by whom and when surrounding IMs, calls on the phone, etc., did have a real and factual set of circumstances in reality;  I also believe that the opposing sides have their own "perceptions" of what occured and what was said by whom, and that reality may be colored by emotional feelings about the subject.  Never the less, it seems both sides 'believe' what they believe to be the facts.

Tom and Wayne, it would go a long way towards moving on if you would not keep taking pot shots at Tom Mac (which has occured in recent weeks) since he hasn't been on here in quite some time.  (even if a post was removed... it was there for a time)  It seems finally, Tom Mac could no longer just let your take on the events as they occured in his perception stand without yet one more reply to tell his side.  You really shouldn't get mad at Ran for seeing that one fellow had been technically foreclosed to defend himself by no longer being registered to post.  Frankly, I think it was not a matter of Ran taking sides, it was that he recognised one fellow, who actually did present a fact on Crump, was taking an asskicking in absentia.   I think Ran was only trying to be fair, and to someone he calls a friend, which I think many would call Mac Wood a GCA friend. 

You gents have a view and opinion of what and how the Crump information came to light.  We all know that your views are quite opposite how the matter was explained more than a year ago by Tom Mac, and again now.  Nothing was actually accomplished in the realm of colleageality on this site at that time or now; yet a factual revelation about Crump did come out.  And, it was the truth.  The truth will out.  You should have left it at the truth about Crump and quit trying to tar Mac Wood's activities in how he inquired to find the truth. 

Who did that truth hurt that Tom Mac revealed, BTW.  Crump's reputation?  You mean Crump was such a powerful guy that he actually thought a suicide would be covered up, and not recored legally, and thought that before he pulled the trigger?  The truth is what Crump had to take responsibility for when he decided, and I assume he did, and everyone else has to live with it.  As for the Town Manager, I doubt that unless he was the village idiot, that he had to get involved by ever revealing anything to Tom Mac.  It is hard to believe that the guy was hornswaggled and tricked into revealing anything he didn't want to.  If the Manager said it to a total stranger, no matter if there was a cover story intimating it would not be made public, then I would have to say the guy is an old gossip, or a bit daft to say it in the first place.  And, it was public record!

The more either side of the controversy continues with retelling the emotional parts of the matter, based on their perceptions, the more the rest of us feel bad for all of you... and so unnecessary and hindering in the discovery of new and interesting historical facts about GCA. 
No actual golf rounds were ruined or delayed, nor golf rules broken, in the taking of any photographs that may be displayed by the above forum user.

DMoriarty

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Hugh Wilson's overseas voyage
« Reply #134 on: April 22, 2008, 12:18:30 AM »
Wayne, I am having trouble understanding your frustration with Ran. 

TEPaul used Ran's site to launch a brutal personal attack on Tom MacWood.

All Ran has done is to allow MacWood to set the record straight.

If Ran's involvement will draw attention to the post, then the better.  It deserves a reading.  Ran's site should not be used as a launching pad for unprovoked personal attacks by anyone, including TEPaul.   If attacks do occur then Ran ought to be able to do whatever is necessary to set the record straight.   

 Ran or Wayne didn't create this mess.  Tom Paul did.   

_____________________

I wont repost it w/out Tom's permission.

Golf history can be quite interesting if you just let your favorite legends go and allow the truth to take you where it will.
--Tom MacWood (1958-2012)

TEPaul

Re: Hugh Wilson's overseas voyage
« Reply #135 on: April 22, 2008, 12:28:48 AM »
I just heard about this post from Tom MacWood via Ran, and I've looked it over.

Frankly, it's fine by me if Tom MacWood posts his side of that Crump DC/Merchantville thing on this website even though I'm sort of sorry to see Ran get involved in dredging up all that old stuff on this site again right when we were hoping for some productive new info on Merion's history from David Moriarty and the opportunity to discuss it civily. I did post my side of it about a week ago, even if I did remove it, so if he wants to present his side that's fine by me---that's certainly fair and nothing much more than probably a good old fashioned "point/counterpoint".

As for whether it's a good idea to get into all this again I'd bet some pretty good money that most all GOLFCLUBATLASERS and viewers of this website aren't too sanguine about that. Probably just the opposite, in fact.

As for the accuracy of Tom MacWood's side, I agree with Wayne's post. Tom MacWood was accurate about the chain of events in some places but inaccurate in others and most certainly very inaccurate with what he ommitted saying on his post above.

Tom MacWood gave me the guy's name himself and who he was, otherwise I never would've known anything at all about any of it, would I? If he did that he had to know I would call him and not for the least reason I told Tom MacWood on the phone that night when he gave me the guy's name and number that I intended to talk to him otherwise I wouldn't have asked him for his name. All MacWood said to me about Wayne calling him rather than me is he would advise that because he felt he was a much better researcher than I was and since he was that, he'd managed to get that info out of the guy and that Wayne would probably have a better chance of doing that than I would.

What that man told me was a very different story from what Tom MacWood just reported. And I most certainly did tell him I thought MacWood intended to write an article on Crump's suicide. Tom MacWood can tell anyone now he never intended to write an article on Crump's suicide when he called that man in Merchantville but would you believe him? I sure wouldn't, and I don't and I never have, not for a single minute. That's what MacWood says he does---expert research to write expert articles. If he never intended to write an article why did he call the guy and go to that effort in the first place, just to satisfy his curiosity? Do you believe that? I don't believe it for a single second, and I never have right from the first time he gave me that pathetic excuse. To me that's just a piss-poor excuse to cover up the fact he knows perfectly well he should have told that man in Merchantville EXACTLY why he was calling him in the first place, and right up front, and he knows he didn't do that because he probably wouldn't have gotten what he was looking for if he did and that is really bad ethics if you're writing or reporting on something. I wonder if Tom MacWood ever bothered to call that man again and tell him he was going to write a story on Crump's suicide that was generated by that guy who had no idea about an article when he said to MacWood that Crump shot himself?

What Tom MacWood said in that post above is as soon as he called that guy and mentioned he was doing some research on Crump and Pine Valley that that township manager immediately blurted out that Crump shot himself. Do you believe that? It's a completely preposterous remark and completely the opposite of HOW MacWood TOLD ME he got that info out of that guy which was near the end of talking about other things. MacWood even bragged to me on the phone that that is why he's a better researcher than I am.

That township manager told me that people had called him over the years asking about a Crump suicide and the policy of the township was that it was classified and they didn't discuss those things. He even named some of the times he had been called on that. I remember he said he'd been called from someone in California about that.

What that man in Merchantville told me is if Tom MacWood ever showed up in Merchantville NJ he would probably sue him if he wrote an article on that and it became known he was the first source who told him that.

But Tom MacWood said above that you can thank me for the way that Crump article turned out and maybe you can. I tried to explain to him all along that he (and Paul Turner) were wrong that there never was some concerted effort around here to protect Crump or glorify him to minimize Colt at Pine Valley. That was the big issue between us back then and that was a lot of the reason this whole thing happened with MacWood and me and Merchantville township and if you don't believe it just look it up in the back pages on those Pine Valley threads.

But it's quite a while later and what are my feeling now about all this? Well, I think Tom MacWood wrote a very good article on Crump and I've told him so many times and I've told this site the same thing many times. But am I glad he did it? Not at all, even if it was a good and considerate article.

Back then and even on reflection, even if I certainly understand the need to find the truth on most things and how much this site likes that and respects it this will always be one I'd make an exception on that way.

 I have no idea why Crump shot himself, and Tom MacWood doesn't either. Noone does and they never will. But obviously his mother didn't want what happen to her son to be known and it had to be her who constructed that story that night in Jan 1918 of how he died even if the police could clearly see it wasn't the truth (matter of fact I'm almost completely sure he did not kill himself in Merchantville as the DC says, I'm almost certain he shot himself right there in his little cabin at his beloved Pine Valley and his body was removed to Merchantville obviously on his mother's request). I believe her's was the story that held for many many decades (sudden death by poison to the brain from a tooth abscess) and the thing that most all thought happened although there were some who knew about that suicide rumor. I heard about it around thirty years ago. Should I have been a good researcher and gone sniffing around to prove he committed suicide?

Not in my book--not ever. Call me a less than dedicated or ambitious researcher, I don't care. I love that place and a lot of the people from it and I never would want to do that to them or Pine Valley or the memory of Crump.

Call me a sentimental sap, I don't care, I wish the hell they'd left everything about the Titanic down there where it is with all the people who went down with it too. I think some things should be left to the mysteries and mist of time. I think there's a certain respect in doing it that way.

To bring this back to what this seems to be all about again and now----Merion---and the accuracy of its architectural history. Isn't it ironic that Hugh Wilson really was booked on the Titanic but for whatever his reasons he changed his booking and went later, and lived to do what he did, only to die suddenly and prematurely at around 45 just like his Philadelphia friend and, like him, later famous architect, Crump.

Just the little increments of Fate, I guess!   :'(

DMoriarty

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Hugh Wilson's overseas voyage
« Reply #136 on: April 22, 2008, 12:41:53 AM »
Tom Paul,

While I don't agree with much of it I appreciate the tone of your last post. 

I do agree that it is none of our interests to back down this road. 

But the only way to avoid this sort of destructive digression is to not go there in the first place.

Golf history can be quite interesting if you just let your favorite legends go and allow the truth to take you where it will.
--Tom MacWood (1958-2012)

TEPaul

Re: Hugh Wilson's overseas voyage
« Reply #137 on: April 22, 2008, 01:00:45 AM »
Wayne:

I took quite a while writing up that really long last post of mine and I just got back to reading yours and Pat's and particularly Moriarty's.

They're telling you to forget about all this and just move on. For me, I don't really care. David Moriarty, as we all thought, would be good to have back again but I think we all agree he's worse than he was before he left and this is a lot worse since he returned and he's basically dragged all of this old crap up again when he came back. I doubt it's us that makes him carry on this way. I suspect he will continue to do that with most anyone on this website who challenge some of the things he says and does. As for MacWood, what can I say?

Do we really want to deal with people like that on here any more over the history of Merion that we know by a factor of about ten better than they ever will? Let them argue about Merion endlessly with word games and evasions over complete trivialities. Why should we waste time on that?

It's a good question. And now you seem really disappointed in Ran and the administration of this website.

Your my friend, Wayne, we've been through a ton together on this thing with golf course architecture and we have a ton ahead of us in all kinds of ways and places. Maybe we should just take our time and efforts to other venues. This USGA Architecture Archive could use our time, that's for sure.

Even if I'm sure I can probably always live with this place with all its ups and downs and all its good people and jerks, if you really want to bug out of here, you just say the word, any time, and I'm right behind you, pal.   ;)


wsmorrison

Re: Hugh Wilson's overseas voyage
« Reply #138 on: April 22, 2008, 07:37:39 AM »
Wayne, I am having trouble understanding your frustration with Ran.

That is because you don't know the inaccuracies in Tom MacWood's post.

TEPaul used Ran's site to launch a brutal personal attack on Tom MacWood.

That has nothing at all to do with me.  Yet I was included in his rantings.  Can you now understand my frustration?

All Ran has done is to allow MacWood to set the record straight.

You couldn't be more wrong.  All Ran has done is allowed one person to have his views presented under the guise of authority and promotion.  We've all said things on this site that we wish we could take back.  The delete feature allows this to happen.  Why is it there if it is not meant to be used?  Why criticize someone for using it if they've had a change of heart as to the tone (perhaps not the content) of the post?  To say that all posts have to be resurrected so the site can see both sides is nonsense.  This is an old feud that should not taint the site any longer.  Everyone should let it all go.  But like little kids, everyone wants to get in the last word, even those that have quit the site.

Let David post his findings and let us act like gentlemen and ladies in considering it.  There is no need for any other behavior.   

If Ran's involvement will draw attention to the post, then the better.  It deserves a reading.  Ran's site should not be used as a launching pad for unprovoked personal attacks by anyone, including TEPaul.   If attacks do occur then Ran ought to be able to do whatever is necessary to set the record straight.

How has Ran set the record straight in posting Tom MacWood's account?  Your premise is that Tom MacWood is right and that Ran posted it because he knows it to be true.  That is the downfall of authority giving tacit approval in a matter such as this.  Ran could not know the truth and neither could you.  Both of you do not have first-hand knowledge of many of the statements made by Tom MacWood.  The fact is, Tom MacWood could not know he truth of some of them either.  Yet you've made your decision as has Ran. 

Many on here fall into the trap that hurts research and the documentation of history the most; that is believing what they want to believe in.  When others disagree, they charge them with the same flawed process.  It is a downward spiral that needs to be avoided not encouraged.

Tom,

I'll hang in here.  As you know, I'm not afraid to fight the good fight.  And you know how much I enjoy this site and many of the participants.  It is fighting this nonsense that gets tiresome.  I will put more of an effort into other activities such as the USGA project and less into this.  The golf architecture archive and research center is where real gains can and should be made.  My energies would be better spent if I divided my time opposite my current apportioning.  Thank you for being my friend, Tom and standing beside me. 
« Last Edit: April 22, 2008, 07:49:14 AM by Wayne Morrison »

john_stiles

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Hugh Wilson's overseas voyage
« Reply #139 on: April 22, 2008, 08:41:09 AM »

Well,  not sure what to make of all this.

But,  if Tom MacWood is not going to post,   my preference is for one last post or re-post by TEP to be fair.     Sum up the sides on the PV / Crump story,  and then call it quits on the PV / Crump.

Now back to the thread,   I am still convinced that some notice of the Wilson trip will be in the Inquirer in 1910.  Say it is so Joe B,  say it is so.

The notice of Crump's and Baker's departure to England was but ONE thin line, and was not in the Sport section.

At this point,  how in the world could CBM have had much to do with Merion,  other than a dash down the rails for a quick one day visit is beyond me.

I guess we are still waiting for this new Merion revelation.     Why not just scan and post the 'new found' reference material(s) and let everyone read it ?

Just itemize the newly discovered pertinent material and then state your thesis on Merion.  And then we can get into the counterpoint discussions.

Let's go.

TEPaul

Re: Hugh Wilson's overseas voyage
« Reply #140 on: April 22, 2008, 08:53:51 AM »
David:

Although I don't see the purpose of it, you wanted this, you asked for it so here it is. Does this now balance the slate or set the record straight now in your opinion? You're probably the only one on here who wants to keep dragging this old feud back on here and perpetuating this nonense: Are you happy now?



"Once again I find myself scratching my head trying to figure out the underlying emotion that causes such vitriol from gentlemen almost all of whom I have met, played golf and had delightful pub and grub with."

RJ:

OK, I'll tell my side of this MacWood Crump suicide thing one last time on here.

We had had some discussion on here of the design and creation of PV and the main participants were probably me and Paul Turner and Tom MacWood. Essentially the thread or threads were between me trying to explain what exactly Colt was responsible for and what Crump and others were responsible for and they essentially were saying that Colt had done more than the club had ever given him credit for.

First of all, I doubt either of them have any idea what the club gives either Crump or Colt credit for as neither know anyone from the club. I must know at least 100 members over the year and I know what various of them who care about that kind of thing thought about what Crump did and Colt did. Basically, it was all over the place with a lot of them thinking Colt routed the course because they were aware of his hole by hole booklet that's been in the archives since the beginning. Crump left no such thing. The only thing known is the so-called blue/red line topo that's hung on the wall for ever which I doubt anyone was ever able to translate anyway.

So eventually, it became a matter of MacWood basically contending that the club and even Philadelphians generally were in a habit of covering up Colt's contribution to glorify George Crump and particularly as he died so suddenly and that was such a shock to the club. I contended that was not the case at all and he had no way of knowing that because he has never been there and knows no one there. I know a good dozen members who think Colt designed the course (for the reason I just gave above). Well, obviously they are wrong about that but it's just another indication of how wrong MacWood was to contend that the club and Philadelphians always tried to minimize Colt by glorifying Crump. These threads are all in the back pages and you can read them if you want to.

At about this time MacWood informed me that he had proof that Crump committeed suicide and he was going to write about that. To me, as he had been contending the club had always tried to minimize Colt to glorify Crump, that did not sit well at all. To me it just looked like and sounded like he was out to embarrass Pine Valley and hopefully Philadelphians generally if he could.

So we (Wayne and I) began to ask him how he intended to prove Crump committed suicide and he wouldn't tell us. We asked him for a couple of weeks and he wouldn't say until one day he told me when I called him on the phone that he'd talked to the Merchantville township manager and in the course of talking about other things like building architecture they got on the subject of Crump and his death and he told me the township manager told him Crump committed suicide and the township had that information.

Not knowing if that was at all true I called the Merchantville township manager and asked him if he had proof that Crump committed suicide. He told me people had called about that for years from other states and that the circumstances of Crump's death was not information the township made public. Then I told him a guy in Ohio I'd been speaking to had called him relatively recently and told me that the township manager informed him Crump committed suicide and the township had records to that effect. Then I told him the man from Ohio had every intention of writing about it and making it public because he had told a few of us so.

Well, at that point the township manager essentially went ballistic and told me if that guy ever showed up in Merchantville NJ he would sue him as he was a public official and he could lose his job for being exposed like that.

So I called MacWood and asked him why he didn't tell the township manager what his real intention  in calling him was and that it was to get information on Crump's suicide so he could write about it. I asked him if he was aware of reporter ethics of always informing interviewees of the intention of the subject to be written and conversations on a subject. MacWood said he was aware of that and when I asked him why in the hell he hoodwinked the guy he gave me the dumb excuse that he wasn't 100% sure he was going to write about it. He even bragged that since he got that information out of him that showed why he was such a good researcher and I wasn't because I couldn't get the township manager to admit to me Crump committed suicide. Can you imagine that?! Jeesus.

That's when I called him a fraud and he told me maybe he would write instead about an expert researcher/writer trying to do an article while he was beset upon by a bunch of bullies. I believe I spoke to MacWood shortly after that about how some of the signficant members of Pine Valley had been aware or the rumor of Crump's suicide for years, for decades, and probably right back to 1918, including my good friend Mayor Ott. I've been aware of that rumor for over thirty years but everyone seemed to feel it was a subject they all would very much not want to bring up and air publicly for the fairly obvious reasons they felt the story of death by poison to the brain was something Crump's family (his mother) probably came up with on the spot simply to avoid the obvious opprobrium connected with suicide and that they would prefer that these things not be dredged up now or at any time.

That was about the last time MacWood and I spoke of this but he did produce his article and to be honest I thought it was very good and told him so. I helped him get the article to the club and a copy of the death certificate to John Ott. I was told the president took it to the board and they took it sadly but well.

And that's about the extent of it.

In my opinion, the way that township manager was used in this thing was highly unethical and frankly dangerous to his profession. MacWood accused me of endangering him by calling him. How in the world could that be since I would've preferred to not see an article on Crump's suicide at all and I didn't write it and had no intention of making such a thing public. It was MacWood who wanted to write that and did, so I can't imagine how I'm complicit in unethical reporting practices.

The other thing I do not admire him for is simply not having the decency to speak to the club before writing something like that first. Of course they couldn't stop him but I think it's common decency to inform them of it before springing something like that on them.

And that's the extent of it. I believe in the truth but I think this particular thing carries a lot of saddness and frankly I do care about that because I love that club and many of those people are good friends. MacWood obviously doesn't have those sentiments or constraints and I understand that too. Again, he wrote a good article and I told him so a number of time; I just think he acted very unethically in the manner in which he did it.

This is not intended to be another slap at MacWood a few years later and I'm not trying to be rude to him at this point. You asked the question and I'm giving you my side of it. Do you think that also falls into the context of truth and honesty?



   


« Last Edit: April 22, 2008, 08:56:06 AM by TEPaul »

Mike_Cirba

Re: Hugh Wilson's overseas voyage
« Reply #141 on: April 22, 2008, 09:16:47 AM »

I guess we are still waiting for this new Merion revelation.     Why not just scan and post the 'new found' reference material(s) and let everyone read it ?

Just itemize the newly discovered pertinent material and then state your thesis on Merion.  And then we can get into the counterpoint discussions.

Let's go.

John,

Although that would seem to be the courteous and considerate thing to do for the benefit of everyone here, providing a speedy update or preview of the content and intended use of the new materials would defeat the purpose of those who wish to embarrass others and ultimately are looking to diminish this website, don't you think?

For comparison, and stark contrast, think about how Joe Bausch, and Geoffrey Walsh, and Wayne Morrison and Paul Turner and David Stamm, and Bob Crosby and James Morgan and many, many others have been immediately forthcoming with providing the results of their research for immediate dissemination, discussion, and review here.   Witness the recent Cobb's Creek threads and the collaborative, cooperative effort of all involved.

THAT is what this website should be all about.   This should NOT be some shadowy world of backdoor agendas, whispered conversations, backstabbing IM's and emails, and personal acrimony fueled by past bitterness.

Who really cares who gets credit when information is researched, and then shared?   We all ultimately win.

Conversely, when this kind of conspiratorial silence and "inner circle" secrecy goes on, we all lose...big time.
« Last Edit: April 22, 2008, 09:37:08 AM by MPCirba »

DMoriarty

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Hugh Wilson's overseas voyage
« Reply #142 on: April 22, 2008, 09:36:26 AM »
TEPaul used Ran's site to launch a brutal personal attack on Tom MacWood.

That has nothing at all to do with me.  Yet I was included in his rantings.  Can you now understand my frustration?

Yes.  I do.    But it was not Ran or TomM or me who pulled you back into this.  It was  another late night tirade against Tom Macwood, one in which TEPaul freely spoke for you.

The one posted below is the second one he posted, not the first.

I hope we move on as well, but without the nastiness and personal attacks.   None of us should put up with it, no matter what side of the discussion we are on.
Golf history can be quite interesting if you just let your favorite legends go and allow the truth to take you where it will.
--Tom MacWood (1958-2012)

DMoriarty

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Hugh Wilson's overseas voyage
« Reply #143 on: April 22, 2008, 09:58:21 AM »
John,

It wasnt me who promised a new merion revelation, or created all this hype and tension.  There is an IMO, but who knows if you or anyone else will find it revealing.

As for your suggestion on how I should present my opinion, thanks for it, but I think I'll stick with the IMO piece. 

Posting a bit here and a bit there hasnt always been productive in the past.  Posters come and go, and no one really understands the bigger picture.  Or we get caught up in the minutia and miss the bigger picture.  Or we end up covering the same ground over and over again.   Or usually some of all of these.

Who knows if it will, but I hope the IMO format allows us to avoid some of this.   

Although that would seem to be the courteous and considerate thing to do for the benefit of everyone here, providing a speedy update or preview of the content and intended use of the new materials would defeat the purpose of those who wish to embarrass others and ultimately are looking to diminish this website, don't you think?

Mike

With the uproar, I hadn't yet responded to your thoughtful message sent by email last night.   But I guess you have already have had a change of heart.   

Quote
This should NOT be some shadowy world of backdoor agendas, whispered conversations, backstabbing IM's and emails, and personal acrimony fueled by past bitterness.

I agree, Mike.  So please stop. 

Golf history can be quite interesting if you just let your favorite legends go and allow the truth to take you where it will.
--Tom MacWood (1958-2012)

TEPaul

Re: Hugh Wilson's overseas voyage
« Reply #144 on: April 22, 2008, 10:33:54 AM »
MikeC and JohnS:

Oh, I don't know about Moriarty putting up some raw material right now.

It seems like MacWood has been insinuating for about five years there might be more of real relevance out there about the accuracy of the architectural history of Merion than anyone has known of. And it seems like his insinuataion was that Macdonald may not have ever been given the credit in his "advisory" roll with Merion he deserved either back then or from any of us around Philadelphia today.

Obviously David Moriarty very much got into the same subject and the very same insinuations somewhat later about Merion and all these super long Merion threads have ample evidence of those insinuations.

Eventually both of them got into implying there'd been and continues to be some kind of "Philadelphia Syndrome" to that effect. Check out one example when MacWood mentions that on the "Macdonald/Merion" thread on May 8, 2004.

This kind of insinuation on their part that there may be more out there, and that either some of us here are unwilling to consider it or are trying to minimize it to promote our own architect and the expense of some other such as Macdonald has been going on for years and now when David Moriarty returned he pretty much insinuatated he had some new information of relevance about Merion's architectural history and probably Macdonald's part in it which apparently he believes should require a reinterpretation of the Merion historic architectural record.

Apparently that new and relevant information will be contained in this IMO piece he says he's about to sent to Ran to post. So, in my opinion, let him develop it right and comprehensively with his own assumptions and conclusions about why he thinks it's relevant and why he thinks it should require a reinterpretation of Merion's architectural history.

That's what I'm hoping for and expecting, and I'm looking forward to it and if I've waited this long I can wait a little longer.

I want it to be good, and I sure do hope it wouldn't just be some total rerun of all that we've been through over these last five or so years on some posts that run close to 30 pages. If that's all it's going to be, I, for one, will be really disappointed and I'm very sure I will not hesitate to say so on here.

But I'm still hoping it will be really good and hopefully contain some things none of us have known about or properly considered before.

Sean_A

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Hugh Wilson's overseas voyage
« Reply #145 on: April 22, 2008, 10:34:22 AM »
John,

It wasnt me who promised a new merion revelation, or created all this hype and tension.  There is an IMO, but who knows if you or anyone else will find it revealing.

As for your suggestion on how I should present my opinion, thanks for it, but I think I'll stick with the IMO piece. 

Posting a bit here and a bit there hasnt always been productive in the past.  Posters come and go, and no one really understands the bigger picture.  Or we get caught up in the minutia and miss the bigger picture.  Or we end up covering the same ground over and over again.   Or usually some of all of these.

Who knows if it will, but I hope the IMO format allows us to avoid some of this.   

Although that would seem to be the courteous and considerate thing to do for the benefit of everyone here, providing a speedy update or preview of the content and intended use of the new materials would defeat the purpose of those who wish to embarrass others and ultimately are looking to diminish this website, don't you think?

Mike

With the uproar, I hadn't yet responded to your thoughtful message sent by email last night.   But I guess you have already have had a change of heart.   

Quote
This should NOT be some shadowy world of backdoor agendas, whispered conversations, backstabbing IM's and emails, and personal acrimony fueled by past bitterness.

I agree, Mike.  So please stop. 



David

It is clear that these threads are a complete waste of time and resources.  I can honestly say I believe yourself and Tommy Mac have been treated terribly, but in truth, you can't claim the high ground because you haven't resorted to filthy language.  You continue to make comments which are not helpful and are not designed to be helpful.  Both sides (or is 3 or 4 sides?) needlessly fuel the fire and for some reason, a few in particular cannot pull back and control themeselves.  Why not just drop it and let things go? 

I know none of these recent threads and what they purport are your making and I agree with you completely.  I for one would rather see a cohesive piece which runs through the evidence (considered fact or not) point by point and comes to a conclusion.  So, when do you reckon this IMO piece will be online? 

Ciao
New plays planned for 2024: Nothing

DMoriarty

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Hugh Wilson's overseas voyage
« Reply #146 on: April 22, 2008, 10:53:43 AM »
You continue to make comments which are not helpful and are not designed to be helpful.  Both sides (or is 3 or 4 sides?) needlessly fuel the fire and for some reason, a few in particular cannot pull back and control themeselves.  Why not just drop it and let things go? 

That is a fair question and a good one, and one I am not sure I have the right answer.    My hope is that, if we would all quit giving them a pass for their incivilities, then they will stop.  Bullies will be bullies until their community lets them know it will no longer be tolerated.  I'd like to see that happen here.

Personally, I'd rather just see them removed from the site until they can control themselves, but obviously no matter how bad it gets that is not going to happen.  So it seems the choices are to let them control the site, the agenda, and to run off anyone they please, or to stand up to it, expose it, and hope they get the message.

Golf history can be quite interesting if you just let your favorite legends go and allow the truth to take you where it will.
--Tom MacWood (1958-2012)

TEPaul

Re: Hugh Wilson's overseas voyage
« Reply #147 on: April 22, 2008, 11:14:18 AM »
"John,

It wasnt me who promised a new merion revelation, or created all this hype and tension.  There is an IMO, but who knows if you or anyone else will find it revealing.
As for your suggestion on how I should present my opinion, thanks for it, but I think I'll stick with the IMO piece. 
Posting a bit here and a bit there hasnt always been productive in the past.  Posters come and go, and no one really understands the bigger picture.  Or we get caught up in the minutia and miss the bigger picture.  Or we end up covering the same ground over and over again.   Or usually some of all of these.
Who knows if it will, but I hope the IMO format allows us to avoid some of this."


OK, David, so maybe you won't be presenting any new and relevant information that most of us have never seen or considered before.

Maybe, all you're planning on doing is presenting some "Big Picture" about Merion as you see it. That's what you just said, right? That's fine too but why don't you just do it?

You told me last week you weren't going to be on here posting because you wanted to get your IMO piece done and out to Ran to post on here by the end of the weekend.

So why don't you do that or at least how about you just tell us when you plan on doing that? What's it going to be now, next week, next month or next year? 

JESII

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Hugh Wilson's overseas voyage
« Reply #148 on: April 22, 2008, 11:22:59 AM »
David,

Your best defense will be to write a compelling story with substantiated information. I would not expect you to receive the benefit of the doubt, and I hope that is not your expectation. I don't care if you write it as an In My Opinion piece or any other format. I think I mentioned it 18 months ago, but it's worth repeating. The best way to deal with a bully is not to call them a bully and let it be known that it bothers you, the best way is to prove them wrong.

At the end of the day, the burden of proof is on you with respect to re-writing history. If you've got the goods, great. If you don't, I would think it is foolish to intimate that you have.

No need to respond to me, I'd prefer to read your piece when you've finished.

Sean_A

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Hugh Wilson's overseas voyage
« Reply #149 on: April 22, 2008, 11:25:40 AM »
You continue to make comments which are not helpful and are not designed to be helpful.  Both sides (or is 3 or 4 sides?) needlessly fuel the fire and for some reason, a few in particular cannot pull back and control themeselves.  Why not just drop it and let things go? 

That is a fair question and a good one, and one I am not sure I have the right answer.    My hope is that, if we would all quit giving them a pass for their incivilities, then they will stop.  Bullies will be bullies until their community lets them know it will no longer be tolerated.  I'd like to see that happen here.

Personally, I'd rather just see them removed from the site until they can control themselves, but obviously no matter how bad it gets that is not going to happen.  So it seems the choices are to let them control the site, the agenda, and to run off anyone they please, or to stand up to it, expose it, and hope they get the message.

David

I don't know that anybody gives anybody a pass for incivility.  To be fair, most probably feel it isn't their place to scold other GCAers.  We are all guests.  Some have spoken up on your behalf, but you make it difficult when you continously harp on the matter.  Are you asking that contributors on this site rise as one against Tom P and Mike C?  If so, I would suggest you concentrate on matters that you control.  If that means you leave the site I guess you have to do what you have to do.  I for one hope you will publish your IMO piece and let it do your talking.   

Ciao 
New plays planned for 2024: Nothing

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