[TEPaul]

"Dave
I would very much appreciate if could add what others have speculated (ie post cards, Colt house visits etc) and their approximate times to the above of what is known.  I am not trying to sink any theories, but I think it helps to have all the info on one post that can be altered.  Start a new thread if you like."

Sean:

I hear you, a lot of us do. You can see the same pattern here. It's no different than those old Merion threads of David's. I was told he had some new information since those old threads. Apparently not. Apparently it's nothing more than his same old interpretations that seem to imply that so many people from that time and throughout the ensuing years just got it wrong that Wilson must not have gone abroad before the design and construction of Merion began.

It is too bad that things like all those sketches and plans and surveyor's maps that everyone involved back then seemed to say he came back with from abroad and were used in the design of Merion East are gone now probably lost in a clubhouse flood at some point in Merion's history. Maybe all those plans and drawings Macdonald supposedly had from abroad for the design of NGLA were a lie too and Wilson didn't really see them and just said he did. 

I guess those things too were just a collective Philadelphia dream or a collective lie, as what would be the point of him bringing of ton of sketches and plans and surveyor's maps home from abroad to design Merion East in May of 1912---Merion East was already built and growing in at that time.  

Not to mention Harry Colt's letter to Wilson and his mention of moving residences and asking Wilson to give Mrs Colt's best to Mrs Wilson. That sure sounds to me like Mrs Wilson was with Hugh over there. Of course David will probably say that only means Colt's wife was over here with him and visited the Wilsons. On that note can we please have Mrs Colt's manifest listing to prove she was here with Harry?

Wayne:

Have you seen an early Merion history written by a guy named Philler maybe in the 1920s? That's the guy Hugh's brother Alan wrote the report on the creation of the Merions for. That was the report in which Alan Wilson explained the work of the Merion Committee and where he reported that Hugh had to be considered the leader of it all---eg Merion's architect. I guess some on here think Alan was lying about that too and the whole thing was basically made up. Maybe they think that because he was Alan's brother. I just read a letter from Hugh to Piper telling him he didn't think two brothers from the same city should work on the new USGA green section initiative as that might look odd. I guess Hugh wasn't feeling a conniving at that point as Alan must have been, huh?

This is a pretty amazing discussion which once again seems to imply an awful lot of lies by an awful lot of people back then. Isn't it amazing nobody picked up on all that before this?

But David has brought nothing new to this new discussion that I can see and I was told he had new material.

Bummer!  

Until WE come up with more material, it's probably just time for me to tell him what I did before that his contentions just don't prove much of anything except that he seems to think proving negatives is what he's done here.


Wayne, I also see that the agronomy letters we copied were just the ones basically about the course. For instance, there's a gap of 123 letters in my files between the first one I copied and the next (124). When we get up to Far Hills next we should go through the rest. At the very least it may create a timeline of when Wilson WAS in Philadelphia since he did most all his writing to P & O from there. In other words if it turns out he was abroad for something like a month it really does make one wonder where all those people came up with the notion he was over there for seven months in preparation to create Merion East.

DM's arguments and points are just assuming way too many people were totally wrong or lying to suit me. It sort of reminds me when a few others were implying that there was a Philly conspiracy going way back to minmize Harry Colt at Pine Valley. That's turned out to be completely untrue.

Why in the world would so many people from Merion and around Philadlephia back then just let all these massive untruths go uncorrected at that time? To me it makes no sense at all. I've never heard of anything remotely like this other than how wrong Kittanset got things but that was put right in a heartbeat and it also didn't entail some massive implied coverup and architectural attribution conspiracy that seems to be the basis of David's fixation with Merion.

In my experience with this kind of stuff things generally turn out to be as they appeared to be before.

  

[Sean_A]

"Dave
I would very much appreciate if could add what others have speculated (ie post cards, Colt house visits etc) and their approximate times to the above of what is known.  I am not trying to sink any theories, but I think it helps to have all the info on one post that can be altered.  Start a new thread if you like."

Sean:

I hear you, a lot of us do. You can see the same pattern here. It's no different than those old Merion thread's of David's. I was told he had some new information since those old threads. Apparently not. Apparently it's nothing more than his same old interpretations that seem to imply that so many people from that time and throughout the ensuing years just got it wrong that Wilson must not have gone abroad before the design and construction of Merion began.

It is too bad that things like all those sketches and plans and surveyor's maps that everyone involved back then seemed to say he came back with from abroad and were used in the design of Merion East are gone now probably lost in a clubhouse flood at some point in Merion's history.

I guess those things too were just a collective Philadelphia dream or a collective lie, as what would be the point of him bringing them home in May of 1912---Merion East was already built and growing in at that time. 

Not to mention Harry Colt's letter to Wilson and his mention of moving residences and asking Wilson to give Mrs Colt's best to Mrs Wilson. That sure sounds to me like Mrs Wilson was with Hugh over there. Of course David will probably say that only means Colt's wife was over here with him and visited the Wilsons. On that note can we please have Mrs Colt's manifest listing to prove she was here with Harry.

Wayne:

Have you seen an early Merion history written by a guy named Philler maybe in the 1920s? That's the guy Hugh's brother Alan wrote the report on the creation of the Merions for. That was the report in which Alan Wilson explained the work of the Merion Committee and where he reported that Hugh had to be considered the leader of it all---eg Merion's architect. I guess some on here think Alan was lying about that too and the whole thing was basically made up.

This is a pretty amazing discussion which once again seems to imply an awful lot of lies by an awful lot of people back then. Isn't it amazing nobody picked up on all that before this?

David has brought nothing new to this new discussion and I was told he had new material.

Bummer! 

 

Tom

I am not in the least convinced that a guy like Wilson could not have built Merion without visiting the UK so the debate is largely meaningless so far as I am concerned.   I (like many others I suspect) enjoy the back n forth so far as its civil more than I do a final resolution.  It will be interesting to discover where you lot draw the line in deciding what is reasonable to surmise without necessarily being factual - this may be the most helpful thing that comes from this Merion Monster Thread II.

Ciao 

[TEPaul]

"David,
If you have other information about the trip, or lack thereof, or anything else affecting the timeline, please let us know.   
Isn't that what we're here to discuss?"

Patrick:

Did you really believe he had new information as was implied? If so, you were as gullible as me!

[Patrick_Mucci]

Mike Cirba,

Your conclusions regarding Hugh Wilson's trip to Buenes Aires are abominable.
Far worse than anything that TEPaul criticized Tom MacWood for.

My casual observation is that many want Wilson's alleged trip to be true, and thus are accepting evidence that may be a far stretch in order to arrive at that conclusion.

A guy sails from Southampton for Buenes Aires, is listed as a British Citizen and Mike Cirba declares, "that's our man" ?  He was just taking the scenic route home, by way of more than 12,000 miles as the crow flies, probably closer to 15,000 along the sea routes, out of his way.

Joe Bausch  ,

Could it be that the fellow who wrote the article dated Oct 12, 1913 obtained his information from the article written on Sept, 15 1912 ?

And, if that's the case, the Oct 12, 1913 article has NO credibilty    NONE

The next question is, where did the author of the 09-15-12 article get his information from ?
Facts, rumor or misinformation ?

You want to reach a specific conclusion, hence you research in that vain and offer your tidbits as proof positive, without considering any alternative possibilities.

I have no favored conclusion, I only want the facts to be presented such that a prudent, not an emotional conclusion can be reached.

[RJ_Daley]

What happened to Hugh Wilson, and his heirs?  What is left of the family?  As a large business, weren't their records of expenses by Wilson and his business?  Can anyone find out what banking and expenditure arrangements a fellow like Wilson would make and utilize to make such a trip abroad in those days?  Did they do everything by bank notes, or letters of transfer of funds, exchange, etc.  I have no idea.  But there must have been formal protocols, since I don't think Hugh had his Platimun Visa card issued yet. 

I have no dog in this fight.  I am just saying that maybe the search should be broadened to run down other leads and sources.  I can imagine that such records, if they exist, wouldn't be just given out to anyone, without some "permission" or "authorization".  But, wouldn't a more forensic search of documents generated by such a trip at least be worth exploring, than this same old manifest, which seems to be going in circles now?

[Mike_Cirba]

David,

Do you have anything new here to offer?   Seriously, I have no time for this if you don't, and unless I see something new and useful by the end of the day I'll assume you're just nursing old grievances and ask Ran to delete this thread.

Please...you seem to be once again trying to build a case on the lack of a scannable, online manifest records from 1910 when I've already shown that there are HUGE holes in that process, including 800 H. Wilson's coming home from England in that time frame, and George Crump's trip missing as well.

I'd rather believe the multiple contemporaneous accounts that we've come up with in the 5 years after the opening of the East course than try to follow logic that tries to convince us that William Evans, a man who knew Wilson very well, served on GAP with him, was good friends with Robert Lesley, was somehow talking about the West Course, and making up stories about Wilson's trip overseas.

I don't have the time to link to those sources, or re-type them here.   If Joe Bausch has a way to do it easily, he might provide that info, but otherwise, I don't want to retrace these steps.

Please, David...if you have something more...let's hear it.

[Mike_Cirba]

You know, David...the more I think about this it's pretty sad.

You are basically calling Hugh Wilson a liar.

All of these reports, including this one below were printed in the local papers WHILE he was alive...while he was the head of the Greens Committee at Merion, and while he started the Agronomy section of the USGA, and while he helped selflessly start public golf in Philly.   

You're telling us because you guys can't find a manifest prior to 1912 that says Hugh I. Wilson that he lied.

You're asking us to believe that he didn't have enough character to set the record straight in his own time.

You are 100 years later either implicitly or inadvertedly besmirching the reputation of a man who was one of the great figures in golf.

To what end?  You say you want a frank discussion but it's now 3 days since your email and you've provided exactly Zippo new information than what we rehashed ad nauseum a while back. 

If you want this to move in a productive way, I think it's time to put up or move onto another area of discussion.

I'll just add this from December, 1914;   There are many others.

"Hugh I. Wilson, for a number of years Chairman of the Green Committee of the Merion Cricket Cub has resigned.   He personally constructed the two courses at Merion, and before the first was built he visited every big course in Great Britain and this country.  He also laid out the new course at Seaview.   Pressure on business compels him to give up the chairmanship."

[Joe Bausch]

You want to reach a specific conclusion, hence you research in that vain and offer your tidbits as proof positive, without considering any alternative possibilities.

I have no favored conclusion, I only want the facts to be presented such that a prudent, not an emotional conclusion can be reached.

Please find for me Patrick anywhere where I say w/o question that HW had to travel overseas before 1912.  Perhaps I'm not remembering well what I've said on this site.  I'm pretty certain I've presented some articles which support the claims that he could have traveled before the East course was built.

To believe otherwise would suggest that many people have heard stories wrong at best, or are lying at worst.  Is it fair to say you think the data will eventually prove the latter?

[Peter Pallotta]

Mike -

I followed the original Merion thread, and I think posted on it a few times. I was in way over my head back then, and I probably still am.

The difference between then and now (and this certainly doesn't apply only to discussions about golf course architecture) is that I've come to value, and to value above all else, the contemporary reports of the principles involved or most closely involved in the historical events themselves.

Which is to say, your point I think is an important one, and the most important one.  Hugh Wilson and/or those around him at the time said (back then) that he travelled to the UK prior to starting work on the first course at Merion. 

I've never read anything yet that would make me call into question the veracity of those reports.

Everything else is speculation. Now, I happen to LOVE speculation. I do it myself, all the time, and probably to an unhealthy degree. (Sometimes a cigar is just a cigar).  But I try to always remember that it IS speculation, especially if I'm sharing it with others.

Do you know what my speculation is in this case?

I think the Wilsons actually gave Macdonald MORE credit for his role at Merion than he deserved, not less.

Given who Macdonald was at the time and the type of man he seemed to be, I'm speculating that the Wilsons thought it best to be generous in their praise and thanks. 

I'm speculating that they probably found Macdonald to be mostly a pesky and over-bearing pain-in-the-ass know-it-all who they were glad to see the last of.

And if what was in the public domain at the time (e.g. the December 1914 article you quote from) WASN'T an accurate account of what happened, I'm speculating that Wilson would've quickly tried to set the public record straight -- as you say, there is no reason in the world to think Hugh Wilson dishonourable or a liar or even simply a happy-go-lucky egoist.

And I'm speculating that if the public record of the time did not accurately reflect the degree of Macdonald's involvement at Merion, the Wilsons would've have quickly tried to set it straight.....before Macdonald went ballistic and corrected it himself.

I'm out of my element here, Mike, so you tell me -- is there any sign that Macdonald felt slighted by the role assigned to him by the public record, or that he thought the praise heaped on Hugh Wilson unjustified or based on inaccuracy?

Peter 

[Mike_Cirba]

Peter,

On November 1, 1914, Philadelphia Public Ledger golf writer William Evans, a GAP official who was friends with all of the main guys like Lesley, Geist, Gimbel, et.al, told of a letter to the paper from Hugh Wilson, who responded to the question, "What's wrong with Philadelphia golf?"

The article begins;

"Then comes Hugh I. Wilson of Merion, whose word ought to count for a great deal (except around here, apparently  ), for he laid out both the Merion courses and the Seaview links.   He has this to say..." 

Then the article goes on to quote Wilson about the need for public golf, more encouragement for junior play, etc...


I'm sure it's all myth.   

[Paul_Turner]

I remember looking at those shipping passenger records and from memory, Colt's wife Laura did come over to the US on at least one of the 3 trips he made. Probably the 1913 one.

[DMoriarty]

Sean,


Sorry I missed your post until it was requoted.  I think your list is an excellent idea, but suggest it leave out the speculation and focus on the fact.   I for one would love to see a clear and concise list of HARD EVIDENCE that Hugh I Wilson traveled abroad before he built Merion East.   

But surely I am not the one to write it.  Half of this stuff I am not even sure I understand, like the Scottish Hugh Wilson traveling to Argentina, via England.   

I've asked a few times for a list of supporting FACTS, but thus far none have been forthcoming, with the exception of two newspaper articles, both of which are open to dual interpretations.  Also Mike has quoted what appears to be another article, but hasn't attributed it, so I am not sure what it is or what to think of it.    Plus, I am sure Mike Cirba has a bunch of stuff about how Wilson constructed Merion East, but then that is not the issue, is it?   

So I second your request, with a modification:   HOW ABOUT A CONCISE LIST OF HARD FACTS THAT EVIDENCE THAT HUGH I WILSON TRAVELED TO STUDY COURSES BEFORE 1912?   



 

"It is really nice to see someone actually doing research on these issues, Joe."

Would you care to elaborate on this comment?  It is one that you have been repeating, here and on that group email loop.  Are you inferring that nobody else but you, and now Joe, is actually doing research?  If so, I wish you would stick to your offer to keep things from getting personal and also stop making ridiculous remarks such as that.    You asked us all to refrain from criticizing individuals and simply criticize the material presented.  Those were your ground rules.  I think you are the only one breaking them.

Sorry you are offended Wayne.  My intention was to thank Joe for sharing his research, encourage him to keep doing it, and perhaps send a message that while I may not agree with all his interpretations, I appreciate the effort.     I may have been hoping to encourage others to do the same, as it seems the website is long on speculation and conclusion, yet rather lacking in substantive support.

So no offense meant.   I am sure you have done plenty of research, although frankly I do wish you would share more of it.    I have heard a lot about it but have seen very little.   For example, you've recently made a comments about how different Merion East when it first opened.  I am sure I agree, but still I'd love for you to elaborate.    For another example, I have heard that you have written a very substantial work on the history of the Merion's architecture?   When will we see it??   Surely vetting your research here could only improve it in the end. 

TEPaul and Mike:

What, I've been back a day or two, and already the two of you have concluded that I have nothing to offer??? Interesting.   

This is your thread Mike.  One that started out with a false premise.  (At least credit me for correcting that.)  Surely you dont expect me to fill in the substance on a thread you started, do you?


Let me clarify something:    I've got more going on than this website, and this is already eating into way too much of my time.   I'm glad to contribute what I can, where I can, but I do not take requests or demands, especially when the quickly and inexplicably evolve into rude ones. 

Thanks. 

[Mike_Cirba]

David,

You're an ass and a charlatan.

What most everyone here is unaware of is that YOU sent an email to a bunch of us a few days back with a litany of "hypotheticals" that you alluded provides new information about the origins of Merion.

When first Patrick and then me, asked you to actually produce anything new you act offended.

I'm through with you and your games.  Even if you do eventually produce something of possible worth here rather than waste everyone's time with your personal agendas, I wouldn't believe a word of it based on what seems to me to be petty and personal vendettas.

[TEPaul]

PeterP said:

"Do you know what my speculation is in this case?

I think the Wilsons actually gave Macdonald MORE credit for his role at Merion than he deserved, not less.

Given who Macdonald was at the time and the type of man he seemed to be, I'm speculating that the Wilsons thought it best to be generous in their praise and thanks.  

I'm speculating that they probably found Macdonald to be mostly a pesky and over-bearing pain-in-the-ass know-it-all who they were glad to see the last of."


Peter:

Those kinds of questions have been on my mind for at least five years now simply because I think they are the really interesting questions that moved and molded some really interesting times and events and people in what could be considered the first part of America's Golden Age of Golf Architecture.

I think these DM Merion threads are in limbo right now as there's nothing new but your remarks above although of course they're speculation are something that should be followed up on because I think they lead down some of the most interesting roads of this time, particularly the questions of who were these men really (in their personal lives), why did they know each other as they did and why did they do the things they did in archtiecture the way they did then? Of course I'm talking about that fascinating world of the "amateur" architects who produced such wonderful American golf courses in that early era.

I'm going to start a thread on your remarks.

[David Stamm]

David,

You're an ass and a charlatan.

 
I'm through with you asshole.  

Mike, come on. Is this necessary?

[Mike_Cirba]

David,

My truly sincere apologies to the rest of you, but I don't like being played and once again, against my better judgement, I find myself sucked into David's game at his private invitation.

So, the harsh words are necessary, but I'm going to ask Ran to please delete this thread.

I'm done with this nonsense.

[Phil_the_Author]

Guys,

Have you ever considered that the question of when Wilson first sailed to Europe and how to the find the proof for this might best be served by creating a timeline of exactly what we know that he did?

For example, in the early to mid part of the first decade I believe that he was a regular competitor in the Lesley Cup matches. The actual line-ups for these can be found in old issues of the American Golfer. Also, there are a number of references to his playing in different tournaments and competitions. All these can be assigned exact dates and can therefor point to a window of time necessary for a 6-7 month journey overseas.

What is also VERY interesting to me and highly suggestive of what he MAY have been doing with his time, is realizing that after 1907-08 there are very few, if any, mentions of his playing in any tournaments. WHY is that? Could it be that he was elsewhere or working on plans for a future golf course or even hard at work in the insurance business?

I really think that creating a timeline such as this may provide both potential timeframes to examine for his journey(s) as well as point out exactly when they might have occurred...

[TEPaul]

"TEPaul and Mike:

What, I've been back a day or two, and already the two of you have concluded that I have nothing to offer??? Interesting."

David:

Yes, sorry about that but I'm afraid we have concluded not that you have nothing to offer but nothing new to offer from over a year ago. It seems most everyone has asked you either what new you do have to offer that has any real relevance to the architectural history and attribution of Merion or what point you're trying to make like on the mismeasurement thread. If somebody noticed something new please point out to any of us what it is, maybe we missed it. Or else just tell us yourself what the new material or info you do have is. God knows we've all been asking you that question for about a week now since that email chain.

As for you thanking Joe for his research, that's appropriate. You should also thank Wayne Morrison too, as I doubt you have much understanding or appreciation for what he's done to enligtening everyone involved with Merion about various aspects of their history. By that I don't just mean this website, I mean Merion itself and the larger world of golf architecture history on a very significant course.

Wayne's spent about seven years on Merion and some thousands of hours. He basically found Flynn's entire career inventory of drawings in a barn in Bucks County where it had been for over half a century. He enlighten the club as to the seminal significance of William Flynn with those drawings (and that by the way really is proof of the highest architectural order). He enlightened their history on the importance of one of the foreman, Fred Pickering, Flynn's brother-in-law, and how seminal he must have been to get the early design on the ground. Hugh Wilson himself and others from that time confirm this forgotten bit of Merion history. Wayne has also written about a 160 page architectural evolution report of all the Merions and that will be the basis of perhaps the first USGA Architecture Archive AER.

What Joe has done is find some of the old raw material articles which confirms much of Merion's history from the reporting and interviewing of many of the people who all worked on the years long project. Many of the articles Joe found recently have resided at Merion probably from the day they were published. Joe can confirm their existence for the Internet world of interested parties like you.

Your underlying point or implication seems to have always been that Wilson and Committee could not have done what was done at Merion without more assistance from Macdonald than they gave him and I for one do not believe that at all and apparently no one else back then did either. Furthermore, I think we will prove that 1912 was not the first time he went abroad on behalf of Merion and certainly not the first time he went abroad.

If a man like Hugh Wilson, a man from that kind of world, and a man in the marine insurance business, had not been abroad before he was 32 years old I think it would be a complete surprise and anomalie in that kind of world he lived in and went to school in and worked and played in. You can even say the lives of the rich and famous is irrelevent but to the extent he and his club and the people in it were the rich and famous of their day it is not irrelevant at all. That was their world and that's who they were and those were the things they did all the time. If you are a real history buff in this type of area you will need to know and undertand that too. Otherwise, you will never be able to really understand them and why and how they could do some of the things they did. These were definitely not people that someone can truly appreciate who only looks at things through 21st century eyes and mechanisms.

But if you do have something really new and relevant, I, for one, am all ears. 

[Joe Bausch]

What, no one told you that there is another side to the story???   One supported by actual facts?  I dont believe it!

Yeah, I have that article as well.  It is as close as I have found to anything contemporary that talks about his trip in the context of Merion East, aside from the Travis article.   Trouble is, I agree that he did travel abroad to get ideas for the new course.    The question is, when did he go?  Before or after the initial construction of the course?   Keep in mind that when the course opened many of the bunkers had not been built, and many of the details had not been added.   When he returned he built some bunkers, probably some "experimental mounds," and added some bents from France (these are according to Travis) etc.  So either way he went to get ideas for the new course.   

I also agree that he helped largely in the planning of the holes.   The questions are, who did he help, and how far along were the plans when he began helping?   

It is really nice to see someone actually doing research on these issues, Joe.  It is a bit hard for me here in Los Angeles, given that not everything is digitized yet.   

David, I present my findings pretty much as soon as I uncover them.  I am curious why you did not feel the need to present that "Clubs and Clubmen" article, which you said you had, in the interest of fairness.  Did you simply forget, or is it really nothing new to add to the discussion in your mind?

Oh, enjoy your time in LA.  I spent many years there as part of my pursuit of a scientific education.  Go Trojans.   

[Patrick_Mucci]

You want to reach a specific conclusion, hence you research in that vain and offer your tidbits as proof positive, without considering any alternative possibilities.

I have no favored conclusion, I only want the facts to be presented such that a prudent, not an emotional conclusion can be reached.

Please find for me Patrick anywhere where I say w/o question that HW had to travel overseas before 1912.  Perhaps I'm not remembering well what I've said on this site.  I'm pretty certain I've presented some articles which support the claims that he could have traveled before the East course was built.

It's not just that you submitted the articles for review, but, reread again, your comment to me at the bottom of reply # 22 and tell me that that doesnt imply that you fully support that HIW went to the UK prior to 1912.

I can still read, comprehend, and read between the lines pretty well.[/color]

To believe otherwise would suggest that many people have heard stories wrong at best, or are lying at worst.  Is it fair to say you think the data will eventually prove the latter?

Not at all.
I've heard so many erroneous stories repeated, time and time again, that I've learned to view unsubstantiated claims with a degree of enlightened suspicion.

You may or may not have been privy to Tom MacWood's revelation that George Crump committed suicide.  Tom's production of that theory was not only dismissed, but, he was called a fraud, phony and worse.  I myself doubted his conclusion, but, with time, the truth came out and Tom MacWood was correct, despite all the written material in newspapers, magazines and books that Crump had died of a dental infection gone wild, an infection of the brain and other causes.

Other individuals, and maybe Tom MacWood was amonst them also proved that some of what was written in CLUB HISTORIES, by the CLUB HISTORIAN, was incorrect.

So, don't be so quick to accept newspaper accounts.

I don't know if HIW sailed to the UK or Europe prior to 1912, but, to date I don't see any hard evidence that he did....... or didn't.

You appear to want to believe what you read ..... when it suits you.

Philip Young.

I think that's an excellent idea.
One that narrows down the time line considerably.

Mike Cirba,

What's gotten into you ?

A valuable contributor comes back on site, leary of personal attacks, makes that known, and you attack him personally on one of the first threads.

Let's try to pool our collective resources and find out if HIW did or didn't sail prior to 1912.

You also have to view this exercise as one that may not be welcome in certain quarters, much the same as the Crump exercise, but, I'd rather know the facts and the truth rather than continue to labor under a false impression.[/color]

[Mike_Cirba]

Patrick,

Even Job had a limit on his time and patience. 

If David has something new to share about the beginnings of Merion, isn't this time to produce it?

I don't care if he's found out that Moe, Larry, and Curly designed Merion...let's hear the facts he says he has.

Or, would he prefer to make people look foolish guessing first?

It's clear he prefers the latter.

To me, that's not being a straight-up guy..it's being a ....fill in the blank.

[TEPaul]

Philip:

We've basically been through all those things you mentioned. Shortly, I'll try to explain the significance of the Lesley Cup to perhaps the entire gestation of Merion at Ardmore. It was not so much Hugh Wilson's direct participation in it, I don't think he did or did very little, but when you hear who all did participate in it I, think you will understand how that may've mattered to how Merion came to be as it did.

We do have some mechanisms to help create a better timeline and one of them just may be some of those agronomy letters we did not copy. Another timeline will be to try to track some of the info long extant as far back as we can track it. If we can track things like the seven months abroad story before Merion began and something like those plans and drawings he came back with right back to his time, then in my opinion, and I think everyone else's opinion (except for perhaps David Moriarty's) that will be all the proof needed for the reasons Mike Cirba just gave----eg it is completley illogical to think that Wilson himself and all the people in the creation of Merion would willingly perpetuate a bunch of untruths like that if they were all well aware of them in club histories and local newspapers.

Basically people just don't do things like that---not people like those ones anyway.

Here's an example Philip---look at the article Tillie wrote about the anonymous gift to Pine Valley by Eugene Grace. The club's president, Howard Perrin, and former president of the USGA was all over Tillie for that and he wrote a fair sized retraction on Perrin's insistence. I know you're familiar with it.

[TEPaul]

"I remember looking at those shipping passenger records and from memory, Colt's wife Laura did come over to the US on at least one of the 3 trips he made. Probably the 1913 one."

Paul:

I think I remember that too but at this point I'd like to see the proof. 

[Joe Bausch]

You obviously have trouble with emoticons Patrick!  Next time I'll add two or more of them.

Let me ask you again, where did I say that w/o question that Wilson travelled overseas before 1912?  Don't give me this reading between the lines stuff.  Give me proof.  I don't think you'll find I ever said that.

I'll need to educate myself further about the Crump suicide to see what you've written is entirely factual.  It very well could be.  And somehow not reporting the truth about a very difficult subject (suicide) doesn't really surprise me.

But I'm still trying to figure out how things could have gotten so jumbled about Wilson's trip(s)?  Many reports are fairly contemporary.  This golf writer Evans was very well connected.  Did some story just get misunderstood, then repeated over and over until it became accepted?   I'm having a hard time believing that at this point.  He wrote for many years after Merion East opened and I've read many of his articles.  Not all of them, but probably 100 or more of them.  And nowhere in those is any retraction or correction of the facts for the record.  And Evans had to know Wilson at least a little bit.  I think they were at some GAP meetings together.

So if he and others didn't have some facts exactly correct, then I have to ask myself why he would be lying.  You yourself suggested, I think, this is a possibility.  And anytime I hear of somebody accused of lying, I like to think there would be a reason for it.  And in this case nothing yet is obvious.

Please enlighten me further oh Patrick (and David).

[Mike_Cirba]

Patrick,

The George Crump suicide story was hidden from the press at the time, and probably even from many of Crump's closest friends for reasons that should be obvious.

I have great respect for Tom MacWood's skills as a researcher.   He has a passion for it, as I do.

But, purposefully concealing a story about a man driven by either pain or depression or both to end what many would consider a charmed and privileged life is fundamentally different than a story about a seemingly honorable man who lived in Philadelphia for FIFTEEN years while what David is suggesting was a complete lie was told about him in all the local news and golf publications.

One was hidden by the family to hide possible shame, understandably, especially given the times and Crump's religious background.

The other would have simply been a complete farce of his whole social and athletic life while still living, right in his neighborhood.

Are you also suggesting that Hugh Wilson was a liar, as David seems to?

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