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Mike_Cirba

Hugh Wilson's overseas voyage
« on: April 08, 2008, 10:15:29 AM »
The topic of Hugh Wilson's legendary voyage to Great Britain to study the great courses for 6-7 months is indeed a fascinating one.   Certainly a number of contemporaneous accounts at the time mentioned this trip, including articles in Philadelphia newspapers we have come across in our Cobb's Creek research.   

However, to date, no one has been able to locate the online manifest of Hugh Wilson travelling back from England during those years, casting doubt on the veracity of the legend, as well as his purported knowledge needed to design Merion East in 1911.

After doing a bit of digging the past day or so, I believe that if the entire case for Wilson's late entry into the creation of Merion is hung on Wilson not having visited Europe prior to 1912, then I think that's going to need some bolstering.

Yesterday I questioned why George Crump's much-reported 3 month trip to play and study courses overseas in 1910 wasn't found either.

I was informed earlier this morning that George Crump didn't come up in a search of manifests because his name was spelled wrong!!   They  couldn't get FIVE letters right and we are supposed to use this as our gospel??

Furthermore, I did a search of all the ships leaving England between 1908 and 1912, looking not for Hugh Wilson, but for "H. Wilson".   

I found over 800 results!!   Who wants to go through them all on a pay site???     ;)

Of course, this only includes public ship transportation, not private vessels, and Wilson was so connected that he had Mrs. Grover Cleveland attend his 1905 wedding.   He was also in the Insurance business;   not personal injury or even home insurance, but MARITIME insurance.   He would have had need to travel the world at times, to different ports of call, wouldn't he?   With friends like Ellis Gimbel and Clarence Geist and Robert Lesley, he certainly would be no stranger to private travel on yachts and such.


I think we may be thinking about this all wrong.

Don't we all envision Wilson going over there "solo", traipsing around for 6-7 months on his own aquiring knowledge?

Yet, at the time, Wilson was fairly newly married, with a young family.   Would he have left them behind??   It's tough enough to excuse extended absence during wartime, or even for serious business, but for learning to build better places to hit a ball across a field?!?!?  ;D

Would the well-heeled membership of Merion have sent Wilson on an extended trip to Great Britain for half a year without his family?   Without any personal assistants??

Just some things to chew on...
« Last Edit: April 08, 2008, 10:18:13 AM by MPCirba »

DMoriarty

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Hugh Wilson's overseas voyage
« Reply #1 on: April 08, 2008, 10:23:48 AM »
Mike, I posted the manifest on here almost two years ago, and we argued about it for months.  Surely you recall that.   Hugh I. Wilson of Philadelphia, apprx. age 33, sailed to NY from from Cherbourne (sp?) France, and arrived in New York in May of 1912.   

At that point many decided that there must have been a prior trip, even though there is not one iota of evidence that Wilson traveled to Europe to study golf courses twice.   
Golf history can be quite interesting if you just let your favorite legends go and allow the truth to take you where it will.
--Tom MacWood (1958-2012)

Mike_Cirba

Re: Hugh Wilson's overseas voyage
« Reply #2 on: April 08, 2008, 10:26:28 AM »
David,

You posted on the other thread that Hugh Wilson "tells us" when he made that trip.

Could you let us know what you mean by that?

Patrick_Mucci

Re: Hugh Wilson's overseas voyage
« Reply #3 on: April 08, 2008, 10:33:28 AM »
Mike Cirba,

While crossing the North Atlantic in a private yacht could be done, a small ship would not seem to be the prudent vessel of choice, especially in the winter months.

I would doubt that Wilson would consider that a viable option.

With David's presentation of the Manifest listing Hugh I Wilson, age app 33, of Philadelphia, it's doubtful he would have sailed under another name, at another time.

Mike_Cirba

Re: Hugh Wilson's overseas voyage
« Reply #4 on: April 08, 2008, 10:34:58 AM »
Patrick,

I've been through the manifests.  To say that are sloppy and inconsistently presented is an understatement.

How would you explain over 800 H. Wilson's travelling from England between 1908 to 1912?

How would you explain them not being able to even spell "CRUMP" correctly?

Who said Wilson travelled in the winter months?

How would you explain the fact that almost half the entries don't even have "birth year" mentioned?

Do you think Wilson would have travelled first class?


David,

If you have other information about the trip, or lack thereof, or anything else affecting the timeline, please let us know.   

Isn't that what we're here to discuss?

Thanks
« Last Edit: April 08, 2008, 10:39:10 AM by MPCirba »

DMoriarty

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Hugh Wilson's overseas voyage
« Reply #5 on: April 08, 2008, 11:09:56 AM »
Mike,   In due course.   I'd like to finish what you started, if we may.


Hugh I. Wilson, approx. age 33, of Philadelphia, sailed from Cherbourne and landed in  NYC in May of 1912.  The East Course was seeded in September 1911.   

Are we all clear on that?

Golf history can be quite interesting if you just let your favorite legends go and allow the truth to take you where it will.
--Tom MacWood (1958-2012)

TEPaul

Re: Hugh Wilson's overseas voyage
« Reply #6 on: April 08, 2008, 12:32:11 PM »
"And if he took a prior trip, he took a prior trip, but there had better be some record to establish it, or at least anecdotal evidence that it did occur in addition to the 1912 trip...otherwise, I'm prone to believe that the Hugh I. Wilson, age 33, of Philadelphia that landed in NYC in May 1912 was in fact, the Hugh I. Wilson, age 33, of Philadelphia that is credited with Merion. 
So why would folks say he traveled prior to that?  Aren't you guys watching politics these days?"


Shivas:

Why would folks say he traveled abroad prior to that??

Are you really serious when you ask a question like that? If you are you have absolutely no idea what people like Hugh Wilson did in those days that way. Why are you or anyone else on here just assuming a trip in 1912 by Wilson which may've been a fairway short one of a few weeks, was the only time he went abroad? Are you and some others on here saying things like that because you can't imagine that a man like that or people like that would do something different than you have?  ;)

Mark Bourgeois

Re: Hugh Wilson's overseas voyage
« Reply #7 on: April 08, 2008, 12:48:33 PM »
David

Do you possibly mean Cherbourg rather than Cherbourne?

Mark

Mike_Cirba

Re: Hugh Wilson's overseas voyage
« Reply #8 on: April 08, 2008, 12:49:24 PM »
Mike,   In due course.   I'd like to finish what you started, if we may.


Hugh I. Wilson, approx. age 33, of Philadelphia, sailed from Cherbourne and landed in  NYC in May of 1912.  The East Course was seeded in September 1911.   

Are we all clear on that?


David,

With all due respect, why the coyness?   Why the delay?

If you have new information, why not just present it here, right now, this second, in full, because I think where a number of folks have gotten frustrated in the past is feeling that their time is being wasted playing some cat and mouse game...or worse yet, being setup to perhaps be made to look like fools.

No one wants to go through another round of that.   I certainly don't.

So, once again, if you have information with Tom MacWood, that seemingly has been shared with Patrick Mucci, please have the respect for our time and interest that you will just make your case and we can have the "frank discussion on golf course architecture" that you claim you're looking for.

You know, one of the great things about the Cobb's Creek thread, in direct oppositon to the former Merion threads, is that people who had new research info simply came forward and shared it with the group for everyone's benefit and to see how it all fits together.

If that's what you want to do here, now would be the time to do it.

Thanks, David...I honestly hope that's where we're going with this.   Whatever the outcome.

David Kelly

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Hugh Wilson's overseas voyage
« Reply #9 on: April 08, 2008, 12:51:13 PM »
Just so everyone is on the same page again after all these months here is the manifest.

Hugh I. Wilson was listed as 32 years old and the ship (S.S. Philadelphia) left from Cherbourg, FR on May 1, 1912.

BTW, a P. F. Morrison was listed on the manifest as the inspector.  Any P.F.s in your family history Wayne?

"Whatever in creation exists without my knowledge exists without my consent." - Judge Holden, Blood Meridian.

TEPaul

Re: Hugh Wilson's overseas voyage
« Reply #10 on: April 08, 2008, 12:55:32 PM »
"I think we may be thinking about this all wrong.

Don't we all envision Wilson going over there "solo", traipsing around for 6-7 months on his own aquiring knowledge?

Yet, at the time, Wilson was fairly newly married, with a young family.   Would he have left them behind??   It's tough enough to excuse extended absence during wartime, or even for serious business, but for learning to build better places to hit a ball across a field?!?!?  

Would the well-heeled membership of Merion have sent Wilson on an extended trip to Great Britain for half a year without his family?   Without any personal assistants??

Just some things to chew on..."



MikeC:

I think you're instincts are right on the money.

If a guy like Hugh Wilson was going to go to GB to study architecture for seven months it's completely logical he would take his family with him. People like that did that kind of thing all the time. My maternal and paternal grand parents and their families sure did that a ton of times and it's one reason my Dad couldn't stand the French, because his parents took him to France for about half a year and put him into a Parisian bording school which he said was definitely the worst experience of his entire life.  ;)

To be honest and accurate with you if people like that, including people like Hugh Wilson, DIDN'T go to Europe once a year or at least every other year it would've been pretty unusual. Hugh Wilson was definitely a traveler and he probably would've been all over the place had it not been for his daily dedication to the agronomic problems of Merion keeping him there. I swear with those so-called "agronomy letters" the man was writing Piper or Oakley sometimes a couple of times a week.

My paternal grandfather, by the way, was a Merion clubmate of Wilson's and the fact that the club became so crowded is why he and a few others from Merion started Gulph Mills in 1916. They even got Wilson and Flynn to help fix their greens in the early 1920s.

Here's something else to chew on. It seems like that trip Wilson took in 1912 was for a fairly short time, and certainly nothing like seven months, and it seems like he went alone because I've not heard that any of these ship passenger manifests have found his wife along with him on that trip in 1912 that may've been a short one.

But Wayne and I do have a letter in our possession from Harry Colt to Wilson. The letter was written around 1920 and in that letter Colt mentioned they hadn't seen one another in such a long time and in the end of the letter Colt tells Wilson how he and Mrs Colt have moved from their previous residence to another one that he says he thinks Wilson would admire too. In the end of that letter Colt asks Wilson to please tell Mrs Wilson that Mrs Colt would very much like to be remembered to her.

To me that sounds suspiciously like Hugh and his wife visited Colt and his wife at their former residence in England. And if that was on Wilson's ONLY trip abroad ;) and he was traveling alone, then where the hell was Mrs Wilson on that 1912 transatlantic trip home? Maybe she felt she needed to get back to her bridge club early and she took the Concorde, huh, Mike?

By the way, although there is no record extant of Wilson's architecture study itinerary over there something tells me the English Heathlands was a place he felt he should concentrate if for no other reason than people like Crump and Wilson knew they would be designing and building INLAND and those heathland courses of Park, Fowler, Colt et al were considered to be the first really good INLAND architecture ever done.
« Last Edit: April 08, 2008, 01:05:43 PM by TEPaul »

Mike_Cirba

Re: Hugh Wilson's overseas voyage
« Reply #11 on: April 08, 2008, 01:03:28 PM »
Can anyone here imagine a ship leaving Southampton England in the years prior to World War I with ports of call in Lisbon, Rio de Janiero, and other tourist spots without a single American on board out of 242 passengers??

It seems to me that you might as well ask if it would be possible for a ship to leave New York City with stops in Miami, and then a final desination in say Greece, without a single northern European passenger aboard.

Sounds incredulous, right?
« Last Edit: April 08, 2008, 01:06:36 PM by MPCirba »

TEPaul

Re: Hugh Wilson's overseas voyage
« Reply #12 on: April 08, 2008, 01:17:12 PM »
Mike:

Did you happen to see that incredible Titanic exhibit when it was in Philadelphia? If so, remember how screwed up some of the nationalities and particulars of various passengers were? Do you think we might imagine WHY that may've been?  ;)

The cool thing about the exhibit (and frankly really spooky thing about it) was you were given a name of one of the passengers when you went in and it wasn't until you got out that you found out if you lived or died. My guy was a young American photographer who died but he was apparently with some women who turned out to be some hot French actress under another name. I think she lived to nooky another day.

MikeC, I'd lay you about even odds if you'd gone through that TITANIC exhibit the passenger you would've got probably would've been Leonardo Di Caprio!  ;)
« Last Edit: April 08, 2008, 01:20:51 PM by TEPaul »

DMoriarty

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Hugh Wilson's overseas voyage
« Reply #13 on: April 08, 2008, 02:16:24 PM »
Boy, I forgot how hard it was to get any kind of follow through on even the simplest point on these threads.  Mike started a thread stating that no one had found the manuscript of his trip back.  That is not the case.

For the sake of clarification, let me summarize what we KNOW based on the available information:

1.   The East was built in the spring and summer of 1911 and was seeded in September of that year.   

2.   Hugh I. Wilson, aged 32, from Philadelphia,  traveled to Europe in 1912, departing sometime after mid January and returning in May of that year.   

3.  The West was constructed beginning in March 1913 and seeded in May of that Year.

These are the facts we know.  Anything about a previous trip is just pure speculation and conjecture, and without solid facts seems like a waste of time.     And there are no hard facts that support the conjecture that Wilson took an earlier trip to study golf courses.   

And let's be honest here.  Prior to my uncovering the 1912 trip, no one seriously suggested or even considered the possibility of two trips.    It was only after this discovery that suddenly many wanted to start guessing about another trip.    Well I have no interest in guessing.

What proof is there that Wilson's trip occurred before Merion East was built?   And I am looking for solid proof, not conjecture about Lifestyles of the Rich and Famous.

Golf history can be quite interesting if you just let your favorite legends go and allow the truth to take you where it will.
--Tom MacWood (1958-2012)

TEPaul

Re: Hugh Wilson's overseas voyage
« Reply #14 on: April 08, 2008, 02:21:03 PM »
Mike:

Probably most of those on this website do not know or do not appreciate what a "naturalist" or what a naturlist's inclination Hugh Wilson seemed to have. In that way he was probably not much different from a guy like George Thomas who claims Wilson as one of his architectural mentors.

Thomas was an expert aviator and he wrote books on as things as diverse as roses breeding, deep sea fishing and golf course architecture.

In those agronomy letters you can see some examples of Wilson's curiosity this way. At one point he was at some resort on the West Coast of Florida and he wrote either Piper or Oakley from there asking them to tell him who in the US Government they could put him in touch with so he could learn all there was to know about fish or something.

The guy had one helluva curious mind about a lot of things as did some of those other "amateur architect" compatriots of his at that time.

Those guys were what one could call "renaissance" men.

That's probably what made them considered as superior in architecture of that time too. Pat Mucci doesn't seem to understand that or that time or that type of man at all. Pat wouldn't understand or notice what "superior" meant back then if it slapped him upside his concrete head.

Sean_A

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Hugh Wilson's overseas voyage
« Reply #15 on: April 08, 2008, 02:27:13 PM »
Boy, I forgot how hard it was to get any kind of follow through on even the simplest point on these threads.  Mike started a thread stating that no one had found the manuscript of his trip back.  That is not the case.

For the sake of clarification, let me summarize what we KNOW based on the available information:

1.   The East was built in the spring and summer of 1911 and was seeded in September of that year.   

2.   Hugh I. Wilson, aged 32, from Philadelphia,  traveled to Europe in 1912, departing sometime after mid January and returning in May of that year.   

3.  The West was constructed beginning in March 1913 and seeded in May of that Year.

These are the facts we know.  Anything about a previous trip is just pure speculation and conjecture, and without solid facts seems like a waste of time.     And there are no hard facts that support the conjecture that Wilson took an earlier trip to study golf courses.   

And let's be honest here.  Prior to my uncovering the 1912 trip, no one seriously suggested or even considered the possibility of two trips.    It was only after this discovery that suddenly many wanted to start guessing about another trip.    Well I have no interest in guessing.

What proof is there that Wilson's trip occurred before Merion East was built?   And I am looking for solid proof, not conjecture about Lifestyles of the Rich and Famous.



Dave

I would very much appreciate if could add what others have speculated (ie post cards, Colt house visits etc) and their approximate times to the above of what is known.  I am not trying to sink any theories, but I think it helps to have all the info on one post that can be altered.  Start a new thread if you like. 

Ciao
New plays planned for 2024: Nothing

Rich Goodale

Re: Hugh Wilson's overseas voyage
« Reply #16 on: April 08, 2008, 02:33:20 PM »
I am looking for solid proof, not conjecture about Lifestyles of the Rich and Famous.



That was a low blow, Dave, and I'm on your side!

Rich and Famous

Mike_Cirba

Re: Hugh Wilson's overseas voyage - Could this be the return?
« Reply #17 on: April 08, 2008, 02:54:12 PM »
David,

I'm just trying to determine what's out there and it seems to me that the writers we've come across in our Cobb's Creek research who credited Wilson with the design of both courses at Merion (including William Evans, in a January 1915 article, where he writes;

"A committee made up of Hugh Wilson, the man responsible for the two Merion courses; Ab Smith, who has done much to stiffen and improve...will aid the park engineers in laying out the course (at Cobbs' Creek)" ),

as well as the story of his 6-7 month visit overseas repeated by Evans, by "Billy Bunker", and others, who were the insiders of the time to have all been misled or lying seems somewhat absurd on the face of it.   What would their goal be?   These weren't reporters that we think of today, who are outside of a process looking in and prying for information...these guys were all friends and fully aware of each others activities around golf to an extreme degree.

If you'd like me to send you our Cobb's Creek research...all 200+ pages, I'd be happy to, but what it points out time and again was that these guys were almost incestual in the way they worked together and collaboratively and knew exactly what each other were doing at any given time.

Which leads me to the question of Ship's Manifests.   I don't  recall which ones you originally searched, but if memory serves, it was all ships coming into the US during a period?   Perhaps New York and Philly?   

Yesterday I went onto the link Rich Goodale provided of all ships leaving England and did various searches.

As mentioned, the fact that George Crump's 1910 trip wasn't found had me dubious about reliability of these logs from the start.

My next search on "H. Wilson" between 1908 and 1912 led to over 800 results.   Given that you have to pay for every detailed lookup, I decided I had cast the net too wide.

Then, I tried just Hugh Wilson, and got another bunch to search through.

I finally came across a trip from Southampton, England, on October 28, 1910, which listed as passengers;

Hugh Wilson
Mrs. Hugh Wilson
Two daughters (under age 12) which was the case as of that date
A Governess
A Maid

The only strange part is that the manifest is divided in two parts...what's termed as "British passengers", and "Aliens".   

Of the 242 souls aboard, about 35-40% are "aliens", and each has listed their country of origin.   The strange part is that although the ports of call the ship would travel to included Lisbon, Rio, and other common ports, not a single passenger was listed as "American".

On the trip, the Hugh Wilson and family in question rode First Class.

Their destination was Buenos Aires, which may seem a bit odd except for the fact that Hugh Wilson's primary profession was Insurance...not personal or home or life...but Maritime Insurance, a business that likely would have led to contacts and business all over the world.

It also occurred to me that there is no way in hell that the well-heeled members of Merion would have sent a young man with a young family and young children overseas for 6-7 months without sending his family...and sending assistants.   

Please see the following.   The second link takes you to a larger, zoomable version.

I can't say for certain that it's our guy, but it also seems strange to me that the person listed...a Hugh Wilson (of Scotland??) would have had the means to travel first class to Buenos Aires with his family and servants unless he were either going on vacation (did Scotsmen vacation in Argentina???)....or perhaps an American student of golf returning circuitously from a trip overseas, attending to business on the way??

In any case, this type of thing is why I'm saying that there is no absence of evidence...it's just that all the evidence hasn't been found, disseminated, and sifted.

Thanks
Mike



A larger version can be found here;

http://darwin.chem.villanova.edu/~bausch/images/HughWilsonManifest.jpg

« Last Edit: April 08, 2008, 02:58:30 PM by MPCirba »

TEPaul

Re: Hugh Wilson's overseas voyage
« Reply #18 on: April 08, 2008, 03:28:40 PM »
David:

First of all, how do you know Wilson went to GB in 1912 around January? I can't remember that fact. If you've searched for it do you have a ship manifest inclusion of when he sailed over there and if not, why is that? Does it not exist and if not what does that say about the reliablility of ship manifest research?

Secondly, I don't think we need to dismiss some of this as just the lives of the rich and famous. If the facts of the lives of a bunch of those people from Merion back then really was that they went to Europe frequently, certainly including Hugh Wilson and perhaps his family, don't you think intelligent research should consider that if people on here are trying to conclude that Wilson's 1912 trip had to be the only one he made GB or the first one?

I sure do.

TEPaul

Re: Hugh Wilson's overseas voyage
« Reply #19 on: April 08, 2008, 03:48:47 PM »
Mike:

That's an odd one----eg 242 passengers and not a single American but I guess that could make sense since the ship was from England to Argentina (part of the British Empire?).

That also seems to be an odd sheet as it seems to be just for British listings. I notice there's a maid of a Mrs McGregor on that page. I wonder where Mrs McGregor is listed on that manifest.

DMoriarty

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Hugh Wilson's overseas voyage
« Reply #20 on: April 08, 2008, 04:41:43 PM »


TEPaul. 

 I didnt say he went in Early January.  I said he didnt go before early January.  He was in Philadelphia in mid-January at the USGA dinner.     

As for your Lifestyles of the Rich and Famous theory, it is far from a hard fact warranting an assumption that he DID go on a previous trip.   
Could he have afforded it?  Yes. 
Did others in his position travel?  Yes.   
Do we know that he went over to study before the 1912 trip?  NO. 
Can we assume it?  NO 
Is there any proof of it?  NO.

Just like Mike's Scottish Hugh Wilson who sailed to Argentina theory, it is pure conjecture.

Mike,

Really? This is your Hugh Wilson?  A Scottish One?   Based on your hunch that a bunch of Americans wanted to go to South America via England??   Interesteding.

 I'll humor you this time, but I really dont have time for this.    The names are wrong for Hugh I. Wilson's 1910 household staff.  The real households were named  Flanagan,  O'Malley and Burns.
_______________________


Now, again, what is the HARD EVIDENCE that Wilson traveled to study courses before 1912?   Anyone?   Beuhler? 


Golf history can be quite interesting if you just let your favorite legends go and allow the truth to take you where it will.
--Tom MacWood (1958-2012)

Joe Bausch

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Hugh Wilson's overseas voyage
« Reply #21 on: April 08, 2008, 05:11:18 PM »
You've done some nice work Dave.  Congrats.  Some of this stuff is the first time I've heard it since I've only been a member of GCA for maybe 8 months.

Found another little tidbit that you'll of course say in no way proves Wilson was abroad before 1912.  But this sure is interesting.  Note the fourth paragraph down in this September 15, 1912 edition of the Philadelphia Inquirer. 



I guess all these guys from the Philly papers are liars, eh Patrick Mucci?   ;)
@jwbausch (for new photo albums)
The site for the Cobb's Creek project:  https://cobbscreek.org/
Nearly all Delaware Valley golf courses in photo albums: Bausch Collection

DMoriarty

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Hugh Wilson's overseas voyage
« Reply #22 on: April 08, 2008, 05:34:53 PM »
What, no one told you that there is another side to the story???   One supported by actual facts?  I dont believe it!

Yeah, I have that article as well.  It is as close as I have found to anything contemporary that talks about his trip in the context of Merion East, aside from the Travis article.   Trouble is, I agree that he did travel abroad to get ideas for the new course.    The question is, when did he go?  Before or after the initial construction of the course?   Keep in mind that when the course opened many of the bunkers had not been built, and many of the details had not been added.   When he returned he built some bunkers, probably some "experimental mounds," and added some bents from France (these are according to Travis) etc.  So either way he went to get ideas for the new course.   

I also agree that he helped largely in the planning of the holes.   The questions are, who did he help, and how far along were the plans when he began helping?   

It is really nice to see someone actually doing research on these issues, Joe.  It is a bit hard for me here in Los Angeles, given that not everything is digitized yet.   

Golf history can be quite interesting if you just let your favorite legends go and allow the truth to take you where it will.
--Tom MacWood (1958-2012)

wsmorrison

Re: Hugh Wilson's overseas voyage
« Reply #23 on: April 08, 2008, 05:59:35 PM »
"It is really nice to see someone actually doing research on these issues, Joe."

Would you care to elaborate on this comment?  It is one that you have been repeating, here and on that group email loop.  Are you inferring that nobody else but you, and now Joe, is actually doing research?  If so, I wish you would stick to your offer to keep things from getting personal and also stop making ridiculous remarks such as that.    You asked us all to refrain from criticizing individuals and simply criticize the material presented.  Those were your ground rules.  I think you are the only one breaking them.

Patrick_Mucci

Re: Hugh Wilson's overseas voyage
« Reply #24 on: April 08, 2008, 06:05:00 PM »
Patrick,

I've been through the manifests.  To say that are sloppy and inconsistently presented is an understatement.

How would you explain over 800 H. Wilson's travelling from England between 1908 to 1912?

It's not like you found 800 guys named Farky Needleman.  Wilson is a common name, as was Harry, Henry, Hans and others begining with H.
[/color]

How would you explain them not being able to even spell "CRUMP" correctly?

Maybe it wasn't Crump, maybe it was an abbreviation, or maybe it was one of TEPaul's relatives who checked him in.
[/color]


Who said Wilson travelled in the winter months?

There's a 25 % likelihood that he did.
[/color]

How would you explain the fact that almost half the entries don't even have "birth year" mentioned?

Probably because DOB wasn't required.
[/color]

Do you think Wilson would have travelled first class?


I couldn't answer that.
How do you know that he wasn't traveling with a companion under her name ? ;D

It seems quite likely that having the city of affiliation, age and the correct FULL name would seem to indicate that they got it right on that voyage.
[/color]

David,

If you have other information about the trip, or lack thereof, or anything else affecting the timeline, please let us know.   

Isn't that what we're here to discuss?


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