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JESII

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Re: Jack's Digest Comment - more good now - more great previously ...
« Reply #125 on: April 10, 2008, 04:30:03 PM »
George,

YOU ARE THE MAN!

"You're my boy Blue..."

Carl Rogers

Re: Jack's Digest Comment - more good now - more great previously ...
« Reply #126 on: April 10, 2008, 04:30:44 PM »
In the world of baseball, there has been a long winded  & tortuous statistical effort to compare the hitters batting of previous generations to the current group.  The baseball conclusion based on the idea of standard deviation is that there is no difference between yesterday and today, just a larger number of shades of gray in today's world and harder for one player to stand out.

Mr. Woods throws all of this off.  So did Mozart.

Tim Pitner

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Re: Jack's Digest Comment - more good now - more great previously ...
« Reply #127 on: April 10, 2008, 04:39:55 PM »
JES,

The Love:Weiskopf comparison is perfect (I actually thought of the same analogy when thinking about these players yesterday).  Both were tall guys, had sweet swings and a good amount of top 10s in majors, but both had difficulty closing in majors (Love's pathetic stab at that short putt at the U.S. Open when he lost to Steve Jones comes immediately to mind).   

Matt_Ward

Re: Jack's Digest Comment - more good now - more great previously ...
« Reply #128 on: April 10, 2008, 05:10:58 PM »
George P:

Mea culpa on my part-- be sure to add the part where Duval threw up on himself when Tiger won the 2000 BO at St. Andrews. You remember that part George?

Johnny Miller is easily beyond David Duval -- to even remotely think they are equal or that Duval is ahead is attributable to nothing more than the potent kool-aid you have found in the greater Pittsburgh area supermarkets. ;D

By the way Miller is ahead of any of the other players you mentioned too. When Miller was on his game no one played like he did. His mark -- however small it was burned very BRIGHTLY-- and was even more impressive with his final round 63 at Oakmont which resonates as one of the game's all time feats.

JES II:

Good question you asked.

Simple answer for Lefty, Phil and all the other wannabee types below Tiger.

Take on The Man when it really matters and let's see him take one on the chin for once.

Until then -- the current crop is more smoke and mirros when compared to the top tier folks Jack routinely encountered.

Art R:

The "if" schools is a nice place to attend -- let's deal with facts for the moment.  Ernie and Phil have demonstrated moments of greatness but far too often they have demonstrated an even greater amount of instances when they have coughed all over themselves at crucial times -- and this has happened when Tiger has not been at the forefront of the major.

Need I remind you -- you are the guy who said Ernie and Phil would do a number on Trevino and Player. Here's your quote ... " I would put Phil and Ernie up against Trevino and even Player any day.  If Tiger were not around, both of those guys would have 6 or 7 under their belt, despite the depth of talent on tour today."

With all due respect Art, you need to really study the tapes from the time Lee and Gary were in their prime. Give the two gents the equipment you see Ernie and Phil using today and who knows how much more of their talent you would see.

Another error on your part - Palmer was still competing in the majors in the early 70's -- check out his performance in the '73 and '74 US Opens, to name just two events. The silly and wrong statement that Arnie disappeared after his last major in '64 at the Masters is nothing more than dead wrong. Arnie was still a force and often pushed Jack to the max -- see the '67 US Open as just another example.

Yes, Palmer did give away a few -- the '61 Masters, the '66 US Open, are two that come quickly to memory but AP also provided pivotal moments that are still noteworthy -- the final round at Cherry Hill -- the win at Troon and the four round superb play in his final Masters win.

I'll say this again because it's simply dismissed by way too many people -- I don't see the mental toughness of today's players versus the ones Jack competed against. People are quick to assert it's simply Tiger's dominance -- but if anyone studies the tapes from a number of Tiger's wins in the big events you'll see plenty of situations where the so-called big name competitors folded consistently like a cheap envelope.


George Pazin

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Re: Jack's Digest Comment - more good now - more great previously ...
« Reply #129 on: April 10, 2008, 05:20:12 PM »
George P:

Mea culpa on my part-- be sure to add the part where Duval threw up on himself when Tiger won the 2000 BO at St. Andrews. You remember that part George?

You betray your bias with this statement. Duval played one bad hole, on a hole and bunker that is notorious for its difficulty, and even his poor result is explained by the fact that he tried to play out aggressively, rather than simply accepting his result and playing out safely for second.

Can't have it both ways, big boy. Nobody is perfect every time, nobody comes through every time - not even Tiger or Jack.

Duval burned as brightly from late 98 to early 2000 as JM did during his peak, the deeper fields simply didn't allow the appearance of it.

Miller's 63 at Oakmont is indeed one of the all time great rounds, but it was one round.

Aren't you the same guy that touts Floyd's long time steely glare over Ballesteros' much brighter burning star?
Big drivers and hot balls are the product of golf course design that rewards the hit one far then hit one high strategy.  Shinny showed everyone how to take care of this whole technology dilemma. - Pat Brockwell, 6/24/04

Garland Bayley

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Re: Jack's Digest Comment - more good now - more great previously ...
« Reply #130 on: April 10, 2008, 05:24:51 PM »
George P:

Mea culpa on my part-- be sure to add the part where Duval threw up on himself when Tiger won the 2000 BO at St. Andrews. You remember that part George?

You betray your bias with this statement. Duval played one bad hole, on a hole and bunker that is notorious for its difficulty, and even his poor result is explained by the fact that he tried to play out aggressively, rather than simply accepting his result and playing out safely for second.

Can't have it both ways, big boy. Nobody is perfect every time, nobody comes through every time - not even Tiger or Jack.

Duval burned as brightly from late 98 to early 2000 as JM did during his peak, the deeper fields simply didn't allow the appearance of it.

Miller's 63 at Oakmont is indeed one of the all time great rounds, but it was one round.

Aren't you the same guy that touts Floyd's long time steely glare over Ballesteros' much brighter burning star?

One bad hole George? Are you sure? Maybe because he played a few at your level, and then one worse then your level makes you say that. He had put himself completely out of it before he got to the Road Hole.
"I enjoy a course where the challenges are contained WITHIN it, and recovery is part of the game  not a course where the challenge is to stay ON it." Jeff Warne

George Pazin

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Re: Jack's Digest Comment - more good now - more great previously ...
« Reply #131 on: April 10, 2008, 05:30:51 PM »
My recollection - and keep in mind my earlier statement about memory conforming to opinion :) - is that Duval got the lead down to a couple strokes on the 12th tee, which he then bogeyed to Tiger's birdie, which effectively ended it. He then blew his own position with the debacle in the Road Hole bunker.

To categorize a bogey v. birdie turnaround, followed by a meaningless play in arguably the world's toughest bunker as throwing up on yourself is perhaps the most illuminating bit of ignorance displayed on this site in quite some time.

Would that I ever threw up on myself in such a fashion....
Big drivers and hot balls are the product of golf course design that rewards the hit one far then hit one high strategy.  Shinny showed everyone how to take care of this whole technology dilemma. - Pat Brockwell, 6/24/04

Matt_Ward

Re: Jack's Digest Comment - more good now - more great previously ...
« Reply #132 on: April 10, 2008, 05:44:19 PM »
George:

In regards to the 2000 BO -- Duval went BACKWARD down the stretch. You can spin it anyway you like -- next subject ...

Let's get serious on Miller v Duval.

A few stats to settle this silly discussion ...

Duval -

Career Totals 289 events played, 182 cuts made, 13 wins, 12 2nd's, 10 3rd's, 64 top tens, 113 top 25, with one major.

Miller -

Career Totals 385 events played, 332 cuts made, 25 wins, 16 2nd's, 10 3rd's, 105 top tens, 190 top 25 with two majors and that incredible 63 which is forever etched in golf's alltime memories.

Guess what partner ... Miller in a walk over Duval.

Not even close.

In regards to Floyd, I simply mentioned how underappreciated he truly is. Came on the scene at roughly the same time as Nicklaus and lasted through the '91 Masters against Faldo and even competed at a high level beyond that with Ryder Cup selections. No doubt I truly appreciate Seve for what he did in such a compressed time, but the Floyd record is one that needs to be highlighted and I did that.

George Pazin

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Re: Jack's Digest Comment - more good now - more great previously ...
« Reply #133 on: April 10, 2008, 06:14:09 PM »
George:

In regards to the 2000 BO -- Duval went BACKWARD down the stretch. You can spin it anyway you like -- next subject ...

Once again, your analysis betrays your bias.

If I were assessing their careers, I'd pick Miller over Duval. But I'd also say it's close, certainly not a walkover.

I'll leave it at that. I think we're at the "you're crazy, let's agree to disagree" stage. I'll buy you a beer next time you're at Oakmont, you can buy me a kool-aid.

 :)
Big drivers and hot balls are the product of golf course design that rewards the hit one far then hit one high strategy.  Shinny showed everyone how to take care of this whole technology dilemma. - Pat Brockwell, 6/24/04

archie_struthers

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Re: Jack's Digest Comment - more good now - more great previously ...
« Reply #134 on: April 10, 2008, 08:05:55 PM »
 8) ;D :D


Ok everybody stop smoking the paspalum

JES  AS a fellow pv looper you get a pass from me ...but I can assure you that no one...not even Hogan hit it closer to the hole than Johnny Miller...so close even the yips didn't stop him for a decade


Miller vs Duval  no contest

remember they passed the no shield rule ( his caddy Andy Martinez used to crouch behind him while putting and say go)  he joins Slamming Sam and Bobby Locke in this respect....they legislated them  out of more wins

Matt and I agree about Floyd.....  vastly underated

 I don't think Raymond, Lee, Seve  or Watson (after some early trouble) tended to back up in the last round...only Furyk seems to relish the fight with Tiger, and his skills are more concentration /heart than most of todays stars

the all exempt tour and the big money has changed these guys...note how the Euros have kicked a lot of butt in the Ryder Cup....they are hungrier
(note Furyk is a good battler unlike other us stars)


Matt as to Tigers PUTTING 

 he makes thirty and forty footers  and the seven eight footers   ....watch the replay of his US Am win against Steve Scott...it's downright spooky  ...and it continues   

later all

stay cool

« Last Edit: April 11, 2008, 11:56:39 AM by archie_struthers »

Garland Bayley

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Re: Jack's Digest Comment - more good now - more great previously ...
« Reply #135 on: April 10, 2008, 09:56:52 PM »
...
To categorize a bogey v. birdie turnaround, followed by a meaningless play in arguably the world's toughest bunker as throwing up on yourself is perhaps the most illuminating bit of ignorance displayed on this site in quite some time.
...

My recollection is that is was a string of bogeys even before reaching the 17th. If my recollection is correct, then he was going BACKWARDS as Matt says.
"I enjoy a course where the challenges are contained WITHIN it, and recovery is part of the game  not a course where the challenge is to stay ON it." Jeff Warne

Art Roselle

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Re: Jack's Digest Comment - more good now - more great previously ...
« Reply #136 on: April 10, 2008, 11:40:50 PM »

Art R:

The "if" schools is a nice place to attend -- let's deal with facts for the moment.  Ernie and Phil have demonstrated moments of greatness but far too often they have demonstrated an even greater amount of instances when they have coughed all over themselves at crucial times -- and this has happened when Tiger has not been at the forefront of the major.

Need I remind you -- you are the guy who said Ernie and Phil would do a number on Trevino and Player. Here's your quote ... " I would put Phil and Ernie up against Trevino and even Player any day.  If Tiger were not around, both of those guys would have 6 or 7 under their belt, despite the depth of talent on tour today."

With all due respect Art, you need to really study the tapes from the time Lee and Gary were in their prime. Give the two gents the equipment you see Ernie and Phil using today and who knows how much more of their talent you would see.

Another error on your part - Palmer was still competing in the majors in the early 70's -- check out his performance in the '73 and '74 US Opens, to name just two events. The silly and wrong statement that Arnie disappeared after his last major in '64 at the Masters is nothing more than dead wrong. Arnie was still a force and often pushed Jack to the max -- see the '67 US Open as just another example.

Yes, Palmer did give away a few -- the '61 Masters, the '66 US Open, are two that come quickly to memory but AP also provided pivotal moments that are still noteworthy -- the final round at Cherry Hill -- the win at Troon and the four round superb play in his final Masters win.

I'll say this again because it's simply dismissed by way too many people -- I don't see the mental toughness of today's players versus the ones Jack competed against. People are quick to assert it's simply Tiger's dominance -- but if anyone studies the tapes from a number of Tiger's wins in the big events you'll see plenty of situations where the so-called big name competitors folded consistently like a cheap envelope.



None of that changes my primary point, which is simply that it is too early to state who is better or who faced better competition.  Trevino was just getting started and Watson had not even arrived when Jack was Tiger's age.  Maybe they turned out to be better than anyone Tiger will face, but we don't know yet.  The one thing that is indisputable is the fact that these questions are pure opinion and impossible to answer.  Despite the fact that you seem fairly confident that you KNOW the right answer, it is all pure speculation.  My opinion is that the tour is better today than it was in the early 70s.  The international talent is deeper, the instruction is better, the fitness is better and the courses are harder.  Yes, the equipment is better too, but I still believe that you have to beat more quality players today than you did 40 years ago.  There were many great players in both eras and it is impossible to rank them across generations.  My personal opinion, is that if you grabbed Jack in his prime and gave him modern equipment, Tiger would still wear him out most days.  I base that on my observation that Tiger has equivalent mental toughness and a few more shots at his disposal.

I also think that Lebron James would score 50 a game in 1965 and that Bob Cousy could not play in the modern NBA.  I don't think that John Riggins would be a star running back in the 2008 NFL and I don't think that Rod Laver would beat Roger Federer. 

I do think that Ali could hold his own against any modern heavyweight and I do think that Ted Williams would be a star in today's MLB. 

There are plenty of people who disagree with me on all of these over a beer.  Luckily for all of us, everyone gets to go to bed thinking they are right.

Do I think Els is better than Player?  No. 

Do I think Mickelson is better than Trevino?  Yes. 

Phil McDade

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Re: Jack's Digest Comment - more good now - more great previously ...
« Reply #137 on: April 11, 2008, 10:02:29 AM »

[/quote]

None of that changes my primary point, which is simply that it is too early to state who is better or who faced better competition.  Trevino was just getting started and Watson had not even arrived when Jack was Tiger's age.  
[/quote]

Art:

Trevino and Nicklaus were born within a month of each other; Trevino is older by @ five weeks. Tiger is currently 32; by the time Jack was 32, he'd won 11 majors. Trevino at the age of 32 had won 4 majors, including his famous duals with Nickalus at Merion in '71 and Muirfield in '72. Trevino, relative to Jack, may have been a late bloomer, but he won his first major at 28, or five years younger than Phil was when he won the Masters in '04. Mickelson first truly contended for a win in a major in '99, the same age that Trevino won his first.

Phil McDade

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Re: Jack's Digest Comment - more good now - more great previously ...
« Reply #138 on: April 11, 2008, 10:21:35 AM »
One-time major winners between 1962 (Jack's first major) and 1986 (his last):

Charles
Venturi
Lema
Nichols
Marr
Geiberger
January
de Vincenzo
Brewer
Goalby (a true gift)
Archer
Moody
Coody
-----------------
Aaron
Weiskopf
Lou Graham
Jerry Pate
Wadkins
Mahaffey
Bill Rogers
Stadler
Sutton
Lyle
Tway

One-time major winners between '97 (Tiger's first major) and now:

Leonard
Love
Lawrie
Duval
Toms
Beem
Weir
Furyk
Curtis
Micheel
Hamilton
Campbell
Ogilvy
Johnson
Cabrera
Harrington

For comparison purposes, the list from '62 to '72 (the same time frame as '97 to the end of the season in '07) would cut off between Coody (Masters, '71) and Aaron (Masters, '73). I count 13 first-time winners during the first 11 years of the Jack era vs. 16 first-time winners during the first 11 years of the Tiger era.





Garland Bayley

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Re: Jack's Digest Comment - more good now - more great previously ...
« Reply #139 on: April 11, 2008, 10:46:15 AM »
Now Phil, why do you want to confuse us all with facts? :)
"I enjoy a course where the challenges are contained WITHIN it, and recovery is part of the game  not a course where the challenge is to stay ON it." Jeff Warne

Phil McDade

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Re: Jack's Digest Comment - more good now - more great previously ...
« Reply #140 on: April 11, 2008, 11:27:27 AM »
Garland:

I wonder if Jack might have even been too generous with his comments. Comparing the two lists, I see truly flukey wins (Moody and Coody, Hamilton and Lawrie), serviceable players who hit the jackpot once (Archer, Weir), very solid players who could only manage one major (Geiberger, Leonard), and international players with pretty solid careers (de Vincenzo and Charles, Cabrera and Campbell).

Of the current one-time winners, i think Ogilvy, Furyk, Harrington, Johnson and Curtis have the best chance of winning a major again. I would've said the same thing about Toms a few years ago, but now I'm doubtful due to health issues. I'd be surprised if the likes of Beem, Hamilton and Duval esp. ever come close to a major again.

Garland Bayley

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Re: Jack's Digest Comment - more good now - more great previously ...
« Reply #141 on: April 11, 2008, 11:33:23 AM »
Phil,

Check my tagline to the left. Wier will win another major, maybe even this weekend!
;)
"I enjoy a course where the challenges are contained WITHIN it, and recovery is part of the game  not a course where the challenge is to stay ON it." Jeff Warne

Phil McDade

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Re: Jack's Digest Comment - more good now - more great previously ...
« Reply #142 on: April 11, 2008, 11:36:37 AM »
Garland:

I was going to include Harrington in that category, then noticed your tagline and substituted Weir instead.  ;)

Richard Choi

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Re: Jack's Digest Comment - more good now - more great previously ...
« Reply #143 on: April 11, 2008, 11:46:09 AM »
I find this argument of "less good players, more great players" a bit facetious.

Statistically, if you have less "good players" you are automatically going to have more "great players".

Why? Because there is less likelyhood that some random low ranking player will win a tournament, the "great" players will have more opportunities to win a tournament.

Let's do a simple experiment.

Let's replicate the yester years this way:

There is 1 Super Player who wins 20% of the tournaments (I am picking 20% for simplicity of the calculation, it can be higher or lower). There are 50 Good Players, who as a group, wins 30% of the times. There are 5 Great Players who win the rest.

In this scenario, the Great Players will end up winning 50% of the time. With 10% winning percentage for each "Great Players", their Hall of Fame credentials are almost certain.

Let's replicate what is happening today:

There is 1 Super Player who wins 20% of the tournaments. There are now 100 Good Players, while their individual winning percentage stays the same, their overall winning totals go up to 60% of all tournaments since there are twice as many Good Players as the example above.

The remaining 5 Great Players only win 20% of the tournaments. With 4% winning percentage for each Great Players, their Hall of Fame credentials are not as impressive.

"More good now, More great before" is a self fullfilling criteria.

Kyle Henderson

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Re: Jack's Digest Comment - more good now - more great previously ...
« Reply #144 on: April 11, 2008, 11:49:59 AM »
There are many more golfers now, more that start young, more that have expert coaching, more development tours, more access to practice facilities and top-of-the-line equipment than during any previous era.

For Tiger to win 6 consecutive USGA National Amateur titles and then 1/4/-1/3 of his PGA Tour Tournaments against those odds is simply astounding. Jack was greater than great, but Tiger gets my vote for the best ever, hands down.
"I always knew terrorists hated us for our freedom. Now they love us for our bondage." -- Stephen T. Colbert discusses the popularity of '50 Shades of Grey' at Gitmo

Kalen Braley

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Re: Jack's Digest Comment - more good now - more great previously ...
« Reply #145 on: April 11, 2008, 11:50:44 AM »
Richard,

I think those %'s and numbers would be interesting if you do the legwork and actually calculate them out for then and now.  If they are accurate, it could be interesting..but I suspect they are not.

Garland Bayley

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Re: Jack's Digest Comment - more good now - more great previously ...
« Reply #146 on: April 11, 2008, 12:09:46 PM »
Richard,

I think your analysis falls down because only the same number of good players are allowed to compete for the major title each time.
I doubt the variation of who is in that group varies significantly enough between the eras to enable your analysis to start to be realistic.
"I enjoy a course where the challenges are contained WITHIN it, and recovery is part of the game  not a course where the challenge is to stay ON it." Jeff Warne

Matt_Ward

Re: Jack's Digest Comment - more good now - more great previously ...
« Reply #147 on: April 11, 2008, 12:37:09 PM »
Art R said, "Do I think Mickelson is better than Trevino?  Yes."

Please tell me how you come to that conclusion -- be more than happy to debate this with any stats you'd like.

Frankly, the gap between Miller and Duval is just slightly wider than the one between Lefty and the Mex.

Art, do yourself a huge favor -- go review the tapes of what Trevino has done in his career. No doubt Phil is a work in progress but when he crosses five majors and in one of those future wins knocks Tiger off in a direct head-to-head match then I'd be happy to reconsider.

Not until then partner ...

George Pazin

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Re: Jack's Digest Comment - more good now - more great previously ...
« Reply #148 on: April 11, 2008, 01:00:59 PM »
Miller vs Duval  no contest

remember they passed the no shield rule ( his caddy Andy Martinez used to crouch behind him while putting and say go)  he joins Slamming Sam and Bobby Locke in this respect....they legislated them  out of more wins

So who's the great one here, Miller or Martinez? :)

Here's another way of looking at Johnny: He was a great ball striker with a balky putter. What kind of career does that get you now? Sergio Garcia's.

 :P :)

Matt, your opinion of the old guys is artificially inflated because Jack was beatable head to head. Tiger isn't. :)

Garland, I'm going to have to find Duval's scorecard, but the bottom line is he was pressing due to the fact that he was behind one of the few guys in the history of golf who never goes backwards on Sunday when he has the lead. I'm surprised you and Matt can't see that - in fact, I don't believe you can't see it, I think you are both misreading his performance to conform to your opinions, as I'm sure you feel I'm rationalizing away his play. Duval made his run and fell short, and I believe he was even injured at the time.
« Last Edit: April 11, 2008, 01:04:09 PM by George Pazin »
Big drivers and hot balls are the product of golf course design that rewards the hit one far then hit one high strategy.  Shinny showed everyone how to take care of this whole technology dilemma. - Pat Brockwell, 6/24/04

Garland Bayley

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Re: Jack's Digest Comment - more good now - more great previously ...
« Reply #149 on: April 11, 2008, 01:07:30 PM »
...
Matt, your opinion of the old guys is artificially inflated because Jack was beatable head to head. Tiger isn't. :)

Err, George, I think we are saying that Tiger is beatable head to head, e.g., Rich Beem, but the present crop of folders don't get it done.

Quote
Garland, I'm going to have to find Duval's scorecard, but the bottom line is he was pressing due to the fact that he was behind one of the few guys in the history of golf who never goes backwards on Sunday when he has the lead. I'm surprised you and Matt can't see that - in fact, I don't believe you can't see it, I think you are both misreading his performance to conform to your opinions, as I'm sure you feel I'm rationalizing away his play. Duval made his run and fell short, and I believe he was even injured at the time.

Read the economists paper. The pressing theory is debunked!
;)
"I enjoy a course where the challenges are contained WITHIN it, and recovery is part of the game  not a course where the challenge is to stay ON it." Jeff Warne

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