[John Kavanaugh]

Can anyone make a case for Pacific Dunes winning even one hole?  I'll give Pacific the nod on the 6th hole because of the interesting green and "strategic" drive.  The most interesting thing about the 6th at ANGC seems to be the spectating area in front of the tee.  I'm also drawing a blank on the 4th at ANGC so Pacific may get the nod there.  ANGC 16 Pacific Dunes 2...It could have been worse.

[Tom_Doak]

Pacific would take a few more holes than that ... #3 and #7, anyway, and at least one of the last three.  But, it's certainly not going to win in most people's minds, because even the worst hole on the back nine at Augusta has the aura of the tournament in its favor.  I surely don't need to see anyone else's comparisons for moral support.

If you asked me which I would rather play tomorrow, there's no doubt; I just prefer the windy, seaside form of golf.

[John Kavanaugh]

Tomorrow?  That would be one hell of a day to get to play.

[John Kavanaugh]

Holes where I would give Pacific a fighting chance.  2,3,4,7,8,9 and 14...now that is seven.  I imagine there are people who can give Pacific an honest win and I will concede that Pacific is the easier walk.  Disclaimer:  I have played Pacific three times and have only walked ANGC once while observing it for 40 years.  I believe that for me I am as equally qualified to discuss or not each based on this experience.

[Patrick_Mucci]

JAKA B,

I don't think the ascending numerical comparison of holes is fair.

I think you should compare the par 4's to the par 4's, the 3's to the 3's and the 5's to the 5's.

[David Botimer]

If you didn't have 70 years of golfs most prestigious tournament floating around in your mind THEN this would be a fair comparison.  The truth is, no one can disconnect the golf course from the event that MADE Augusta what it is.

Would I love to play ANGC?  Of course!!  But do I think PD compares favorably?  Absolutely.

Best par 3? 12 at ANGC or 11 at PD?
Best par 4? 13 at PD the best on both courses, and one of the best in the world!
Best par 5?  Hard to beat 13 at ANGC, but standing on the 3rd tee at PD and seeing the awe in golfers eyes tells alot!

[Garland Bayley]

JAKA B,

I don't think the ascending numerical comparison of holes is fair.

I think you should compare the par 4's to the par 4's, the 3's to the 3's and the 5's to the 5's.

Patrick,

JakaB has never played ANGC. You were supposed to tell him he was unqualified to comment!

[Mark Bourgeois]

John

Why not pick a fair comparison like Royal Melbourne Composite?  Wait, that's not a fair comparison...

Mark

[John Kavanaugh]

If you didn't have 70 years of golfs most prestigious tournament floating around in your mind THEN this would be a fair comparison.  The truth is, no one can disconnect the golf course from the event that MADE Augusta what it is.

I believe just the opposite.  Augusta National the course is what made the Masters.  I would love to see Pacific Dunes with fast greens but do not believe the design could hold up under those conditions.  Watch the ball roll this weekend and then tell me that is not golf at its most interesting.

[Garland Bayley]

I believe Bobby Jones and Arnold Palmer made it the prestigious tournament it is. Bobby Jones got it onto the level of the Memorial, the Arnold Palmer, or the Byron Nelson. Arnold Palmer self-serviingly selected it as a grand slam course that gave it the extra oomph. Arnold should have named the Western Open instead, but Arnold had not won the Western Open at the time.

[John Kavanaugh]

I don't think the reruns would hold water without the architecture.  I will even go so far to say that the ratings are Tiger proof and no other course can say that.

[Kalen Braley]

I think 4, 6, 7, 16, and 18 can stand up against same holes at ANGC.

[Patrick_Mucci]

JAKA B,

I don't think the ascending numerical comparison of holes is fair.

I think you should compare the par 4's to the par 4's, the 3's to the 3's and the 5's to the 5's.

Patrick,

JakaB has never played ANGC. You were supposed to tell him he was unqualified to comment!

Garland,

JakaB posed a question, he didn't comment.

However, he is UNQUALIFIED to evaluate the answers.

Thanks for reminding me 

[Matt_Cohn]

I don't think the reruns would hold water without the architecture.  I will even go so far to say that the ratings are Tiger proof and no other course can say that.

4/11/2005:

"The network's overnight ratings for coverage of Sunday's final round were a 10.3 with a 21 share. That was up 41% from Phil Mickelson's thrilling victory last year (7.3 with an 18) and the highest since Woods' last victory at Augusta in 2001 (12.9 with a 27 share), when he became the first golfer to hold all four major titles at the same time."

[Garland Bayley]

JAKA B,

I don't think the ascending numerical comparison of holes is fair.

I think you should compare the par 4's to the par 4's, the 3's to the 3's and the 5's to the 5's.

Patrick,

JakaB has never played ANGC. You were supposed to tell him he was unqualified to comment!

Garland,

JakaB posed a question, he didn't comment.

However, he is UNQUALIFIED to evaluate the answers.

Thanks for reminding me 

Patrick,

Get your nurse to reread this post to you. Not only did he comment, but he gave the win to ANGC 16 - 2.

[Mike Hendren]

... because even the worst hole on the back nine at Augusta has the aura of the tournament in its favor. 

Tom, surely you can muster a better criticism than that.

Mike

[Mike Hendren]

Barney,

You are much too tough on Pacific Dunes.  I have it halving the 4th, 7th and 9th (perhaps a little generous here but a world-class tee shot) and winning the 6th.  Augusta National Golf Club only wins 14 holes and doesn't close out the match until the 12th hole - 7 & 6.

A note to newer posters:  This is hardly a legitimate way to compare golf courses but one initiated by Ran HisOwnself and routinely used for a little fun. 

Bogey

[tlavin]

I love Pacific Dunes and will always cherish playing it in a foursome right behind Tom Doak, but this is a bit of an apples and oranges comparison.  Even being a huge fan, I would probably only give Pac Dunes three or four holes and if the ocean weren't there, it might not get those.  Conversely, if you put ANGC on or near the ocean, no golf course in the universe would ever come close.  That's not to diss Doak or to overly applaud the tournament course that is now ANGC, but we're talking a virtually different golf species here.  And Doak is correct, you just cannot separate the tournament mythology from any analysis of Augusta National if your being honest.

[John Kavanaugh]

Why would anyone want to dismiss the mythology of the tournament from the course?  Why sanitize your emotions until it is like sex through a glory hole.  In the future I doubt Tom will wish us to take the mythology of Macdonald out of Bandon IV.

[Tom Huckaby]

Love it.

While of course I never put it quite like the inimitable JK just did, this is a point I've been trying to make for years on here... and that is when it comes to assessing the greatness of golf courses, everything that one sees, hears, feels does matter.  Taking the Masters out of an assessment of Augusta is as silly as taking the views of the ocean out of an assessment of Pebble Beach.

So hell yes that all matters... and thus Augusta handily wins any assessment of it against Pacific Dunes.

Just like Pacific Dunes wins against a lot of other courses not near the ocean.

It all matters.  To say it doesn't... well... John just told you what that's like.

 

[Garland Bayley]

Why would anyone want to dismiss the mythology of the tournament from the course?  Why sanitize your emotions until it is like sex through a glory hole.  In the future I doubt Tom will wish us to take the mythology of Macdonald out of Bandon IV.

Because if I were to play there, I wouldn't be playing the myth?

[John Kavanaugh]

Garland,

So you wouldn't love to see a back left pin on 16 and watch the ball feed to the hole?  How about something so simple as a turbo boost down 10 fairway?  You are not playing a myth if you can see your own ball roll, you are recreating history.

[John Kavanaugh]

What are some examples of the difference between tournament myth and architectural features? 

Myth...Birdie 17 and 18 to win the match against your buddies.  Has that been done once or twice in tournament history?

Architecture...Hit the green on 18 from a fairway bunker just like Sandy Lyle.

Myth...Make a long putt on 16 and dance around like Nicklaus.

Architecture...Make the chip on 16 like Tiger and Davis Love.

I bet there are hundreds of examples and would not mind hearing a few more.

[Tom Huckaby]

JK - I'm sure there are other examples.  How about this:

17 Pebble Beach
Architecture:   hit a great shot to find that back left part of the green
Myth:  drop a ball and chip one to that same pin and then dance around like Watson

What I don't get is this:  why does it matter?  Here and in all of your Augusta examples, both parts exist, thus both parts go into an assessment of the greatness.

TH

[tlavin]

Why would anyone want to dismiss the mythology of the tournament from the course?  Why sanitize your emotions until it is like sex through a glory hole.  In the future I doubt Tom will wish us to take the mythology of Macdonald out of Bandon IV.

Because if I were to play there, I wouldn't be playing the myth?

No, but the myth, more than the golf hole itself, would largely be responsible for the shaking in your extremities and the perspiration on your palms.

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