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Chip Gaskins

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Minimalist, Flat Topo, and Great? Can it be done?
« on: April 06, 2008, 10:22:27 PM »
I have two threads going....the question is.  Can a course be minimalist, flat topo and great?


Joe Hancock

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Re: Minimalist, Flat Topo, and Great? Can it be done?
« Reply #1 on: April 06, 2008, 10:36:30 PM »
Chip,

I think it can be done, but I don't think it would be universally great by those who require every shot type to be tested during a round. Uphill, downhill and sidehill lies would be missing for the most part. However, it would be more than possible to have oodles of strategy, i.e. angles, distances, aerial and ground requirements, etc.

I'm sure Pat may say Seminloe again, but I haven't been there so I can't say for sure if it is minimalist by whatever definition one chooses.

Thanks for the thoughtful threads,

Joe

" What the hell is the point of architecture and excellence in design if a "clever" set up trumps it all?" Peter Pallotta, June 21, 2016

"People aren't picking a side of the fairway off a tee because of a randomly internally contoured green ."  jeffwarne, February 24, 2017

Peter Pallotta

Re: Minimalist, Flat Topo, and Great? Can it be done?
« Reply #2 on: April 06, 2008, 10:48:46 PM »
Chip -

probably what Joe said.

I wish it could be. I think in an 'objective' sense it could be. I'm sure the better player would beat the worse player on it; maybe not 9&8, but at least 1-up....which should be enough to satisfy the competitive instinct, but doesn't seem to be anymore.

Peter     

Jeff_Brauer

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Re: Minimalist, Flat Topo, and Great? Can it be done?
« Reply #3 on: April 06, 2008, 11:17:03 PM »
IMHO, minimalism works best on great sites. On flat sites, i would gather that most golfers would find a minimalist course fairly dull visually, and that would affect their opinion of the course.

Also IMHO, I don't consider seminole a minimalist course.
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

Jon Wiggett

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Re: Minimalist, Flat Topo, and Great? Can it be done?
« Reply #4 on: April 06, 2008, 11:39:06 PM »
Chip,

as mentioned on your other thread TOC

Joel_Stewart

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Re: Minimalist, Flat Topo, and Great? Can it be done?
« Reply #5 on: April 06, 2008, 11:43:27 PM »
Can there be shaping or do you expect just a natural routing of holes?  Whats the budget?

 There are many dead flat sites that have fantastic courses.  Shadow Creek if there is a budget, Arcadia Bluffs or Bayonne as well.

Lloyd_Cole

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Re: Minimalist, Flat Topo, and Great? Can it be done?
« Reply #6 on: April 06, 2008, 11:49:20 PM »
Chip
I think it could be done, but it would be tough if it was a site which got little wind... but if it was a windy spot - good turf and wind and I'm happy.

Tom_Doak

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Re: Minimalist, Flat Topo, and Great? Can it be done?
« Reply #7 on: April 07, 2008, 08:42:24 AM »
I consider Seminole minimalist.  But I don't consider it flat.  :)  If you do, you probably haven't played there.  I wouldn't put Pine Tree or the other Florida courses mentioned in the same category, because they ARE flat, and because they're not especially great examples of greens contouring or bunkering.

I think you CAN do minimalist and flat ... Garden City Golf Club and Kingston Heath are the best examples I know of.  But, I've never really had the chance to try it, because most developers in the southeast don't see how it can be done, and because the only times I've had flat sites, the client had other ideas.  Someday, I'll give it a shot.

I don't think that moving 500,000 cubic yards counts as minimalist for the purposes of this discussion.  You can always do that ... the question to me is can you build a great course while leaving the fairways pretty flat?

Mark Bourgeois

Re: Minimalist, Flat Topo, and Great? Can it be done?
« Reply #8 on: April 07, 2008, 08:48:19 AM »
What about the Sacred Nine?

How many bunkers can you put in and still count it as "minimalist"?  How much are you allowed to "Pinehurst" the green complexes?

For new, resort, developer courses, I nominate:
Links at Hope Island

The only problem is you have to take a (GPS-enabled) cart...the flyover across the divided highway is a modern classic!

So I don't know if it counts in toto, but if TOC counts then LaHI has to, as a collection of individual holes.

Mark

cary lichtenstein

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Re: Minimalist, Flat Topo, and Great? Can it be done?
« Reply #9 on: April 07, 2008, 11:18:49 AM »
Nope!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Live Jupiter, Fl, was  4 handicap, played top 100 US, top 75 World. Great memories, no longer play, 4 back surgeries. I don't miss a lot of things about golf, life is simpler with out it. I miss my 60 degree wedge shots, don't miss nasty weather, icing, back spasms. Last course I played was Augusta

Ron Farris

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Re: Minimalist, Flat Topo, and Great? Can it be done?
« Reply #10 on: April 07, 2008, 12:14:36 PM »
It seems to me that this discussion is like defining what is a good bottle of wine.  To some people a good bottle of Mad Dog 20-20 is good.  To others a good Greg Norman cabernet might fit the bill.  Others have even higher standards, but may not appreciate a good buzz.

I was involved in a dead flat site where we built 9 holes.  We moved 300,000 yards of soil.  That puts it over TD's 500,000 yards for 18 holes.  The course is fun for some and too stark for others.  If one plays to the clientele they will more likely be sucessful and not be creating a situation of false expectations. 

I am looking at a site that has 5 feet of elevation change from one boundary to the other.  It has 1.5 miles of a creek running through the site.
I believe we can produce something that is fun and enjoyable to play.  Can it be great by the standards of this site - not likely.  If greatness is defined as a good bottle of Mad Dog, then the answer is YES IT CAN BE DONE.

Adrian_Stiff

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Re: Minimalist, Flat Topo, and Great? Can it be done?
« Reply #11 on: April 07, 2008, 02:05:05 PM »
I think if you truly answer this exact question then it can't. Minimalist by definition means 'do little', so to a not very good site and it will be great, theres no way!! If the site has little in the way of feature, things must be added.
I think its possible to build a great course on a flat featureless site but artifically adding material so as to create up to a 3 metre contour change.
A combination of whats good for golf and good for turf.
The Players Club, Cumberwell Park, The Kendleshire, Oake Manor, Dainton Park, Forest Hills, Erlestoke, St Cleres.
www.theplayersgolfclub.com

Jon Wiggett

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Re: Minimalist, Flat Topo, and Great? Can it be done?
« Reply #12 on: April 07, 2008, 02:55:37 PM »
I would think by placing the hazards correctly and using maybe just 3 ft contours you could make a great course. Although not considered outstanding I would put Musselburgh old as an example that shows you could.

Adrian_Stiff

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Re: Minimalist, Flat Topo, and Great? Can it be done?
« Reply #13 on: April 07, 2008, 04:08:16 PM »
John- I think with 3 feet its impossible, 3 metres is not really much. St Andrews  probably has 5 metres of contour change.
A combination of whats good for golf and good for turf.
The Players Club, Cumberwell Park, The Kendleshire, Oake Manor, Dainton Park, Forest Hills, Erlestoke, St Cleres.
www.theplayersgolfclub.com

John Moore II

Re: Minimalist, Flat Topo, and Great? Can it be done?
« Reply #14 on: April 07, 2008, 09:38:52 PM »
I think again, we have to look at what is 'flat?' 
Could a true 'minimalist' course be designed on flat land? Probably not.
Could a 'naturalist' course be designed? Yes, one that would seem to fit in with the surrounding land, not seem overly out of place and not require an extreme amount of earthmoving. I would assume that is what TD did with Rawls. Its probably not 'minimal' but to someone unfamiliar with the land in that area, could be seen as 'natural.'

Jon Wiggett

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Re: Minimalist, Flat Topo, and Great? Can it be done?
« Reply #15 on: April 08, 2008, 02:24:58 AM »
John- I think with 3 feet its impossible, 3 metres is not really much. St Andrews  probably has 5 metres of contour change.

Adrian,

I would say it is. A great GCA is capable of taking land and seeing something that is potentially there. I have never looked so closely at the elevation change on the road hole green but that can't be much more than 3ft. and certainly isn't more than 6ft.

Seeing what is there and not what you think is the difference between Jon and John ;)

Adrian_Stiff

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Re: Minimalist, Flat Topo, and Great? Can it be done?
« Reply #16 on: April 08, 2008, 03:47:06 AM »
You still cant do the impossible John, even if you are a great architect. What you are effectively asking is someone to build a great golf course but you are taking away his ingredients.. 3 feet change over 150 acres, have another think.
Most standard greens have say 2 feet of internal contour in them which is not really noticeabe, small bumps around green to tie in can easily get up to 6 feet. At a guess I'd say there is 2 metre of contour change within the road hole green complex and probably 2 metres+ on the 18th... 7th and 11th TOC must be up around 4 metres. Where I really think you need to add some elevation change though is into fairways. I am working on a construction project at the moment (just started on The Stranahan), but 3 metres of modelling clay really helps the golf landscape.
« Last Edit: April 08, 2008, 03:58:36 AM by Adrian_Stiff »
A combination of whats good for golf and good for turf.
The Players Club, Cumberwell Park, The Kendleshire, Oake Manor, Dainton Park, Forest Hills, Erlestoke, St Cleres.
www.theplayersgolfclub.com

Tony Ristola

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Re: Minimalist, Flat Topo, and Great? Can it be done?
« Reply #17 on: April 08, 2008, 04:47:22 AM »
Can a course be minimalist, flat topo and great?


Harbour Town

Brett Hochstein

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Re: Minimalist, Flat Topo, and Great? Can it be done?
« Reply #18 on: April 08, 2008, 11:18:52 PM »
i think totally flat fairways can be a part of an interesting, minimalist course.  what it does require, though, is an open mind or repeated play of said course.  what is required to make flatness is interesting is one or two simple, demanding features (deep bunker, burn, o.b, etc.).
i'm thinking of the diagram of MacKenzie's "value of one bunker" sketch or some of the holes at Hoylake.  What it requires is an intense study of playing angles.

When I was living up on Traverse Bay while working at the Kingsley Club, I would sometimes play 'beach golf,' a sort of pitch/putt deal on our little beach.  The sand was firm enough to roll a ball on it, with the exception of the fluffy stuff closer inland, and it was also almost dead flat.  There was a mini bay of water within the firm stuff and a wooden walkway heading toward the water along one end.  I dug out nine holes with no 'sand moving', and I was able to create some pretty interesting situations using only a slight depression or the water or the wooden walkway or the fluffy sand but rarely a combination of any and never three features at the same time.  This leads me to believe it could be done on an actual dead flat golf course--the kicker would be the ability to create enough different strategic experiences for the 18 flat holes to keep the experience from getting tiring.
"From now on, ask yourself, after every round, if you have more energy than before you began.  'Tis much more important than the score, Michael, much more important than the score."     --John Stark - 'To the Linksland'

http://www.hochsteindesign.com

Adam Clayman

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Re: Minimalist, Flat Topo, and Great? Can it be done?
« Reply #19 on: April 08, 2008, 11:25:44 PM »
Both premises seem off. The definition of minimalist is the biggest misnomer going in GCA, followed by the fact that there is no such thing as flat.

"It's unbelievable how much you don't know about the game you've been playing your whole life." - Mickey Mantle

Chip Gaskins

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Re: Minimalist, Flat Topo, and Great? Can it be done?
« Reply #20 on: July 07, 2008, 11:40:19 AM »
i spent the last month or so driving around a certain mid-atlantic state along the coast looking for a great piece of land...my first conclusion is "there isn't any left" but that is the easy way out...so i still look...

obviously the dunes land is what i want, but most is either protected, $500k for a 1/4 acre, or there simply isn't enough of it contiguous to build a course

with that said, i have found countless pieces of flat land with sandy soil however when i stare at them i just can't see how you could make it a great golf course... (thus I am not an artist, nor architect  :)

this continues to lead me back to my question on this post...can a flat piece of land be molded into a top 100 (pick an arbitrary number) golf course with out looking contrived??? or costing a fortune to build???

Jed Peters

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Re: Minimalist, Flat Topo, and Great? Can it be done?
« Reply #21 on: July 07, 2008, 11:51:34 AM »
What about talking stick north?

I LOVED that golf course....

Philippe Binette

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Re: Minimalist, Flat Topo, and Great? Can it be done?
« Reply #22 on: July 07, 2008, 12:00:24 PM »
Could Royal Lytham and St. Annes fit in that description, outside of 8,9,10 it's flat and great

Tom_Doak

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Re: Minimalist, Flat Topo, and Great? Can it be done?
« Reply #23 on: July 07, 2008, 12:27:25 PM »
Chip:

Of course it can, if you want to move just a bit of earth so it's not COMPLETELY flat.  (I believe Talking Stick moved about 200,000 cubic yards per course just to make everything drain through it -- it still LOOKS flat, but it's not quite.)

One key to this is how close below the surface you will find groundwater.  If you don't have at least five or six feet, the course is going to have to be pretty much as flat as it is today, or else you are going to have lots of water features on it.  If you've got more than six feet to work with, you could probably build something cool without relying too heavily on water hazards.

Adrian_Stiff

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Re: Minimalist, Flat Topo, and Great? Can it be done?
« Reply #24 on: July 07, 2008, 01:00:48 PM »
Could Royal Lytham and St. Annes fit in that description, outside of 8,9,10 it's flat and great
Philippe there are still some quick elevation changes around 3 and 4, the 6th has a green in a hollow, 7 is quite rolling, as you say, 8, 9 and 10 are quite hilly, 15th green is in a hollow, 16 plays over a sand dune, 17 is blind.
A combination of whats good for golf and good for turf.
The Players Club, Cumberwell Park, The Kendleshire, Oake Manor, Dainton Park, Forest Hills, Erlestoke, St Cleres.
www.theplayersgolfclub.com

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