David Moriarty

[Patrick_Mucci]

Mike Cirba,

The inability to determine which ship Wilson sailed on can't be dismissed.
If all of the commercial vessels manifest's were reviewed during a specified time frame and his name can't be found, while it doesn't guarantee that he didn't sail, the evidence would seem to point to that conclusion.

Mike,

It wasn't unusual for those traveling to the UK, to visit France, and then depart from Cherbourg for the U.S., hence, their names wouldn't appear on manifests on ships departing Southampton, stopping in Cherbourg, and then on to America. 

Patrick,

I'm not dismissing it at all.

I'm just wondering why George Crump's 1910 trip isn't listed either?   I've paid for the subscription so I can see that it's not there.   At minimum, he didn't sail back from Great Britain according to these records.

Where'd he go??

[DMoriarty]

Here is a snippet of the October 12, 1913 Philadelphia Public Ledger article by William H. Evans that talked about all kinds of stuff that day, including Sea View:



Note:  we've since learned that Evans was a member at Lansdowne Country Club during those years he wrote for the Ledger.

Hi Joe.  Thanks for all the legwork and old articles, especially the ones from the Ledger, most of which I have never seen.   

One thing though, I think perhaps you may have unintentionally misread the piece you copied above.  In a previous thread you quoted it as referring to the "new Merion courses."  In fact, it refers to the "new Merion course."    In Oct. 1913, the new Merion course was the West, which had been constructed and seeded earlier that year. 

I believe the correct reading complete negates the conclusion many have drawn. 

The author does not write that Wilson went overseas before he built the East Course.   Why wouldn't he have so written, if that was in fact the case?   

[Bryan Izatt]

In parsing the wording, how would you interpret "some years"?  I'd read it as some means at least two, and probably more.  He didn't say last year or two years ago.  He said "some years" ago.  Of course people who write nebulous numbers like that are usually covering that they don't know exactly.

Seems, on the balance of probabilities, if you believe anything that is written in newspapers, that it was enough years ago that it was before Merion East was built.

[Tony_Muldoon]

Hi guys interesting stuff. Welcome back Dave you have been missed.

Ships records from GB&I wouldn't necessarily pick up passengers who joined ship at Cherbourg or Le Harve ( guess it depends on where the ship originated from).  I believe they were the normal ports for someone traveling from Paris - a part of any Grand Tour.

Keep digging.

[Joe Bausch]

Here is a snippet of the October 12, 1913 Philadelphia Public Ledger article by William H. Evans that talked about all kinds of stuff that day, including Sea View:



Note:  we've since learned that Evans was a member at Lansdowne Country Club during those years he wrote for the Ledger.

Hi Joe.  Thanks for all the legwork and old articles, especially the ones from the Ledger, most of which I have never seen.   

One thing though, I think perhaps you may have unintentionally misread the piece you copied above.  In a previous thread you quoted it as referring to the "new Merion courses."  In fact, it refers to the "new Merion course."    In Oct. 1913, the new Merion course was the West, which had been constructed and seeded earlier that year. 

I believe the correct reading complete negates the conclusion many have drawn. 

The author does not write that Wilson went overseas before he built the East Course.   Why wouldn't he have so written, if that was in fact the case?   

Thanks Ran for putting David back on!

David, I don't think it really matters much which course he was referring to in the snippet above.  1913 was West, and 1912 was East, right [edit: didn't the West not officially open until 1914?]?  And we know Evans was well connected in golf circles around Philly.  If he said 'some years ago' in 1913, that would likely cover the East too.... but this one article is clearly not sufficient evidence alone of his trip(s).

I've not made it through all the early Ledger articles by Evans.  My guess is more is still to be found and I bet more will be found in the ship registries.

How 'bout a little wager as I assume we both agree that new research likely will settle this once and for all.  A round at my course (General Washington, a simply lovely muni in Philly) vs wherever you regularly play.   

[Mike_Cirba]

Here is a snippet of the October 12, 1913 Philadelphia Public Ledger article by William H. Evans that talked about all kinds of stuff that day, including Sea View:



Note:  we've since learned that Evans was a member at Lansdowne Country Club during those years he wrote for the Ledger.

Hi Joe.  Thanks for all the legwork and old articles, especially the ones from the Ledger, most of which I have never seen.   

One thing though, I think perhaps you may have unintentionally misread the piece you copied above.  In a previous thread you quoted it as referring to the "new Merion courses."  In fact, it refers to the "new Merion course."    In Oct. 1913, the new Merion course was the West, which had been constructed and seeded earlier that year. 

I believe the correct reading complete negates the conclusion many have drawn. 

The author does not write that Wilson went overseas before he built the East Course.   Why wouldn't he have so written, if that was in fact the case?   

David,

Thanks for pointing out that it does say course, rather than courses.   We have come across other news accounts that do say both courses and we'll try to cite those later today.

In this instance, however, it is October 12, 1913.

The Merion East course opened September, 1912.

The Merion West course did not begin planning until well in 1913 (I'll see what I have on an exact month).

The Merion West course didn't open until May 30, 1913.

Do you think it likely that Evans would have referred to the West course, which wouldn't open for another seven months, as the "New" course at Merion, especially since the East at the time was barely a year old?   Especially when the East was new after the club having played another course at another site since the 1890s?

Which course do you think Evans might be referring to when he calls says, that Wilson is "responsible for the wonderful links on the Main Line";  the East course which opened to pretty positive reviews as probably the first "Championship" course in Philadelphia, or the West course, which was in the process of somewhat hastily being put together due to unanticipated popular demand on the East course and which wouldn't open til more than another half year?

Don't forget that at the time of this writing, there was only one Merion course;   the East course which had just completed a wildly successful inagural season.   The West course in early October 1913 was little more than a gleam in they eye of Hugh Wilson, Robert Lesley, and others, precipitated by overcrowding on the East. 

Most of Evans readers wouldn't have known the West Course from Western Mongolia in 1913.   

[Joe Bausch]

In Evans' eyes, I believe, he doesn't recognize Merion West opening until the grand opening they had in 1914.  How so?  On September 3, 1916, in a preview article in the Philadelphia Public Ledger for the upcoming National Amateur tourney where he talks about both East and West (since both courses were used), he begins his hole by hole analysis of the West course like this:

The west course is only two years old and is rolling in character, the holes being shorter, the greens more more rolling, but not so large as the greens on the east course, and there are practically no artificial hazards.

So, anybody still wanting to make the wager of my fantastic home course vs theirs?   

[wsmorrison]

Joe,

Let's give them better odds and offer play at my course rather than Gen. Washington if it turns out Wilson did not go to the UK to study the golf courses until after Merion East was built. 

Proposing that this was the case was to further the claim that Wilson and Committee must have relied more on Macdonald and Whigham because Hugh Wilson was not yet capable of working it out without them.  Even though Fred Pickering, Flynn's brother-in-law was in charge of construction.  Pickering had an enormous amount of prior experience building golf courses. 

In any case, I wouldn't want to take much credit for building the awful 10th hole and deciding to play over Ardmore Avenue 3 or 4 times

[Patrick_Mucci]

Mike Cirba,

Just reread the words in the October 12, 1913 article that reference Wilson having no superior as an architect and tell me if you don't think that the author of the article didn't embellish, distort or fabricate the truth.

No superior ?

What, was Charles Blair MacDonald an inferior architect when the article was written ?

Seth Raynor ?

What had Wilson done prior to Merion that made him superior to all other architects ?

That article is a FLUFF piece and nothing more.

I'd question the accuracy of anything in that article, but, if you want to rely on it as the cornerstone of your position, you'd better have a "Plan B"

[Joe Bausch]

Mike Cirba,

Just reread the words in the October 12, 1913 article that reference Wilson having no superior as an architect and tell me if you don't think that the author of the article didn't embellish, distort or fabricate the truth.

No superior ?

What, was Charles Blair MacDonald an inferior architect when the article was written ?

Seth Raynor ?

What had Wilson done prior to Merion that made him superior to all other architects ?

That article is a FLUFF piece and nothing more.

I'd question the accuracy of anything in that article, but, if you want to rely on it as the cornerstone of your position, you'd better have a "Plan B"

Wow, Patrick.  "...embellish, distort or fabricate the truth". 

Simply amazing your analysis.

[Mike_Cirba]

Mike Cirba,

Just reread the words in the October 12, 1913 article that reference Wilson having no superior as an architect and tell me if you don't think that the author of the article didn't embellish, distort or fabricate the truth.

No superior ?

What, was Charles Blair MacDonald an inferior architect when the article was written ?

Seth Raynor ?

What had Wilson done prior to Merion that made him superior to all other architects ?

Patrick,

The article doesn't claim that Macdonald and Raynor are "inferior", just that they are not superior to Wilson's aquired knowledge at that point.   

What had Macdonald built in 1913 beyond NGLA?   Was Raynor even working independently at that point?

Wilson, at that point, as the article points out, had designed the "new Merion course", the East, that opened in 1912 and lo a few short years later hosted the most important golf tournament in the country at the time, the US Amateur.

He was also designing SeaView for Clarence Geist, one of the most wealthy men in the country.   

He was at work on a second course at Merion, the West Course which would open the next year.

He was also slated to begin working for Ellis Gimbel, another of the most wealthy men in the country to revise the original Philmont course, including doing rebunkering and adding new holes.

Who exactly was a SUPERIOR architect at this point?


If the entire case is hung on Wilson not having visited Europe prior to 1912, then I think that's going to need some bolstering.

I was informed earlier this morning that George Crump didn't come up in a search of manifests because his name was spelled wrong!!   They  couldn't get FIVE letters right and we are supposed to use this as our gospel??

Furthermore, I did a search of all the ships leaving England between 1908 and 1912, looking not for Hugh Wilson, but for "H. Wilson".   

I found over 800 results!!   Who wants to go through them all???     

[Patrick_Mucci]

Joe,

My analysis isn't amazing, it's perfectly reasoned.

On October 12, 1913 the author of the article claims that Wilson has NO superior as an architect on that date.

Ignoring CBM's and SR's body of work, along with Emmett's and others, and you don't find that amazing if not disengenuous ?

Let me ask you, do you agree with that statement in the article ?

What constituted Wilson's body of work at that point in time ?

How did Wilson's body of work compare to CBM's and SR's at that point in time ?

Why do I suspect that you're a Philly "homer"  

Next you'll tell me that Flynn was the greatest architect of all time.
Forget that, Wayne Morrison and TEPaul have already alluded to that.

[Mike_Cirba]

Furthermore, Patrick, one ship left Southampton with 242 "souls" on board, headed for South America with stops in Rio, Lisbon, and other familiar ports of call.

The manifest is divided into "British passengers" and "Aliens".

The Aliens section, about half the total, lists everyone's nationality, yet not a single one of them is "American".    There are plenty of "German, French, Italian, Brazilian, and so on, but not a single American.

Does that seem odd to you in the pre-war years?

[JESII]

Patrick,

What time of day do you start drinking?

[Joe Bausch]

Patrick,

Those are opinions expressed by Evans regarding him knowing no superior architect.  Opinions can't really be fabricated.  Facts are fabricated.

Nowhere in that article did he say anything negative about any other architects.  It sure seems to this relative newbie in the game that you are anti-Philly.

[wsmorrison]

Pat,

Please describe the body of architectural work attributed to Raynor as of 1913.

"What, was Charles Blair MacDonald an inferior architect when the article was written ?"

Perhaps not--at least at that time.  In the opinion of Evans, he was not superior to Wilson.  Are you denying Evans the right to his opinion? 

[DMoriarty]

Guys


There was no rule against writing about a course prior to the opening day.  In fact the bulk of the article is about a course which happened to be scheduled for opening the same day as Merion West opened.  The article itself defeats your assumptions.

In golf society the West course was the talk of the town by this point, and had  been for some time. Articles had already been written about it, and a routing had already been published. 

And again, lets look at the words.  The author refers to the construction of the new Merion course, not the opening.     The new course had been constructed the previous spring, and growing in since May.   I wouldn't be surprised if the author had already played it. 

Mike,

When he says "responsible for" I assume he is referring to both courses.   But then I am sure that phrase means more to you than me, just as "constructed by" does.

As for when Wilson went abroad to study the great courses, Wilson tells us, and the manifests confirm it and all this loose interpretation won't change that.

By the way, Wilson returned from Cherbourne, and so doesnt show up on the Brit website.

[Mike_Cirba]

David,

What did Wilson tell us about the timing of his trip?

The "construction" he is talking about as well as the opening of the new clubhouse was Seaview, not Merion West.

[TEPaul]

Pat:

Regarding your post #58 and the mention by Evans in Oct 1913 that Wilson had no superior is proof to me that many in the golf world understood and accepted the fact that Hugh Wilson was the architect of Merion East which had opened to some real praise. I doubt anyone was talking about Merion West which hadn't even opened for play at that time and they obviously weren't talking about Sea View which hadn't either. Merion East was received right away as one of the best inland courses in America as was Pine Valley some years before it was even finished. If you are looking for confirmation of that there sure are plenty of sources from back then to prove that was the perception.

Wilson was also becoming at that time one of the most important "go to" people in America on golf agronomy. George Thomas, in his own seminal book on architect also cited Wilson thusly;  "I always considered Hugh Wilson, of Merion, Pennsylvania, as one of the best of our architects, professional or amateur."

You can just continue to deny how he was obviously looked at but your denials are becoming a little ludicrous, to say the least.

And how did Wilson gain the knowledge to do such good architectural work at Merion? Well, we certainly have the written account from both Wilson brothers of the significant weekend spent at NGLA going over the course and getting a crash course in the principles of architecture from Macdonald and Whigam at that time---again that was only two days and Wilson himself said he learned more about architecture in those two days than he'd known in all his previous years in golf.

And then we have Hugh Wilson spending approximately seven months abroad studying the best architecture over there, sketching it, acquiring plans and such. SEVEN MONTHS studying architecture abroad!! That's a bit different than just two days at NGLA and that is no insignificant accomplishment---eg seven months abroad studying, sketching etc, that's for sure. Who else put in that amount of study time back then? The only ones I can think of as Amateur architects were Macdonald, perhaps Tillinghast, Emmet, Leeds and Wilson.

Crump was over there for about three months in 1910 but not all of that three months was spent studying golf architecture.

[Joe Bausch]

I think the entire Evans article needs to be reposted as context is so important.  This is from the October 12, 1913 edition of the Philadelphia Public Ledger.

[TEPaul]

It's interesting that Crump can't be found in those ship passenger manifest records. If he can't be found that would shed light on the credence of that resource, in my opinion. I'd also love to see the return dates for Colt in 1913.

Crump was over there alright in 1910, as I have a copy of a postcard from over there from him posted marked December of 1910. Plus I have Joe Baker's recollections of their itinerary from that three month trip to Europe with Crump. Baker even mentions Crump played against John Ball and lost to him 2 and 1.

As for Finegan's piece posted above, that looks like a virtual rework of the Merion history book information. At this point, that reporting that Wilson was over there for seven months before the East was designed, constructed or developed I am still willing to admit is not proven but I too will wage in a very short time it virtually will be proven. And if it does turn out that he was abroad studying architecture for SEVEN months I think that most definitely puts the lie to conjecture from some on here that he couldn't have known how to do Merion East when he returned.  

[TEPaul]

Joe:

I see Frances Griscom's name in that article you just posted as one of the premier American amateurs. As a bit of appropriate trivia, she was Rodman Griscom's, the longtime patron of Merion golf, sister and their father was the rich patron of early Merion golf at the former course in Bryn Mawr. By the way, their father, Clement Griscom was a SHIPPING MAGNATE!! 

One of the oldest women's tournaments of GAP is the Griscom Cup, now over a century old.

As for what William Evans says in that Oct 1913 article about Hugh Wilson above as an architect who has no superior, it would seem he wouldn't be talking about Merion West or Seaview as making Hugh Wilson's reputation as a superior architect since both of those courses hadn't really even opened for play. Evans must have been talking about some other course that made Wilson's reputation as a superior architect before Merion West and Seaview. Do you have any idea what course that may've been that seemingly made his reputation as a superior architect?

[Joe Bausch]

Joe:

As for what William Evans says in that Oct 1913 article about Hugh Wilson above as an architect who has no superior, it would seem he wouldn't be talking about Merion West or Seaview as making Hugh Wilson's reputation as a superior architect since both of those courses hadn't really even opened for play. Evans must have been talking about some other course that made Wilson's reputation as a superior architect before Merion West and Seaview. Do you have any idea what course that may've been that seemingly made his reputation as a superior architect?

Maybe all those articles I've uncovered from newspapers on Cobb's Creek have the dates wrong and Cobb's was really designed and constructed in 1908.  Geez, I better start a new thread on that!   

[Mike_Cirba]

Just because the original contention of the Evans article being about Merion West seems to have suddenly dried up, I'd simply add this;

William Evans, in a January 1915 article, writes;

"A committee made up of Hugh Wilson, the man responsible for the two Merion courses; Ab Smith, who has done much to stiffen and improve...will aid the park engineers in laying out the course (at Cobbs' Creek)" ),

[DMoriarty]

Joe,

Let's give them better odds and offer play at my course rather than Gen. Washington if it turns out Wilson did not go to the UK to study the golf courses until after Merion East was built. 

Wayne,

Terrific. I will be looking forward to playing with you and Joe at Merion.  I will even bring clubs with metal shafts and try my best not to clog up the course with my glacial play.   

What do you say we let Joe be the arbiter?  He is definitely leaning your way, and I am sure he won't be influenced by the fact that, if I win, he gets a round at Merion, whereas if you win, he only gets a round at lowly Rustic Canyon.   

____________________

Joe: 

Not sure what you are getting at in your last post.   No one is making up dates.  As I said on the other thread:   

1.  The East was built in the spring and summer of 1911; seeded in September of that year.
2.  Wilson traveled to Europe in 1912.   
3.  The West was built beginning March of 1913 and seeded that May.

These dates not seriously disputed.    There is ample support.

On the other hand, there are no hard facts that Wilson traveled to study before 1912.   None.   Just an old story, oft repeated, but surely that does not make it fact.   

By the way, in 1913 Walter Travis wrote that Wilson went to study courses in Europe "last summer."    Perhaps he was off by a bit if he was referring to the trip ending in May 1912 since that isn't quite summer.   But he was way off if he was referring to a trip which must have occurred in 1910!  Seems unlikely he was off by that much, don't you think?

Look forward to playing with you at Merion!
__________

Mike.   My contention hasnt dried up, I am just not going to endlessly repeat it.   With a timeline and an accurate reading, the article speaks for itself.     

As for your other quote, you and I undoubtedly attach much different meanings to the phrase "responsible for" just as we do "constructed by" and "built by."    No use rehashing that.