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TEPaul

Re: David Moriarty
« Reply #25 on: April 07, 2008, 12:18:09 PM »
"David Moriarty's, Tom MacWood's and others research have seemed to have taught us that written accounts in newspapers, magazines and books weren't as accurate."

Patrick:

Perhaps you and David Moriarty are prepared to believe that but I'm not, at least not at this point.

On the other hand, it is a subject that very much should be tested as to its accuracy for our research benefit. Don't worry, I do have a laundry list of individuals who undeniably did cross the Atlantic both ways in those days and I'd be glad to submit to see if you or David or anyone can establish the complete accuracy of the shipping manifests of passengers.

How about Lord Brassey's yacht when it visited Southampton with Horace Hutchinson aboard? Can any of you tell me who was aboard that boat when it crossed the Atlantic either way? Or do you suppose they flew it over here in pieces on a C-130 transport?

And Patrick, I too asked both David Moriarty and Tom Macwood to rejoin GOLFLCLUBLATAS.com or did you not even bother to read the email chain you started? If you didn't then read what he said in it in my post #18 above.  ;)
« Last Edit: April 07, 2008, 12:22:09 PM by TEPaul »

Rich Goodale

Re: David Moriarty
« Reply #26 on: April 07, 2008, 12:30:38 PM »
Rich:

Are you saying if you or David Moriarty did not find Hugh Wilson's name on a ship manifest prior to 1912 that we should conclude he did not go to GB prior to 1912? Are you sure that all ship's manifests from that time have been digitized or that you and David have seen them all? Are you sure everyone who crossed the Atlantic in that time was on a ship manifest? If so, how have you become sure of that? One interesting fact to know is that Hugh and Alan Wilson's insurance company apparently did ship insurance.

Let's see if you and David Moriarty can find the exact dates of the apparent three times Harry Colt crossed the Atlantic both ways. That info would be quite important to some of the facts involved in material of Pine Valley. 


Tom (and Tony)

Not exactly, but see Pat's post above re: the barcode analogy.  As he was there at the time in question, I'll defer to him.

TEPaul

Re: David Moriarty
« Reply #27 on: April 07, 2008, 12:36:33 PM »
"....Mr Wilson some years ago before the Merion course was constructed visited the most prominent courses here and in Great Britain."

Thanks again for that article you found recently Joe.

I don't know, I just have a hard time believing that a well known Philadelphia newspaper reporter would say that in 1913 if 1912 was the first time Wilson went to Europe which was not just one year before but also after Merion East was created if it was completely untrue.

Can you imagine Hugh Wilson's reaction reading that article as well as the rest of the people involved in Merion at that time if it was totally false??  :o

Wouldn't you at least think that Wilson and Merion would inform that newspaper reporter how wrong he was? Don't forget, newspapers were the absolute primary news source back then and I've sure seen some reporters in Philadelphia, including Tillinghast, called on reporting events incorrectly that were a lot less important than this one on Wilson being in GB before Merion was created.

If some of you people are just going to continue to not consider the significance of this kind of thing (this newspaper report Joe produced), or worse yet, just continue to try to ignore it altogether, I pretty much fail to see the point of attempting to have an intelligent discussion on here on this subject and the accuracy of facts surrounding it.

TEPaul

Re: David Moriarty
« Reply #28 on: April 07, 2008, 12:40:30 PM »
Rich:

For starters, let's see if you or David can find me the ship manifest passenger listings for Harry Colt on three separate transatlantic crossings both ways in the teens and I will be able to kill at least two birds with one stone. If neither of you can produce that info then what do you suppose that says about the historical accuracies of researching ship manifests? We do know he was here on three separate occasions and I think we pretty much know he didn't fly or swim over here.
« Last Edit: April 07, 2008, 12:42:48 PM by TEPaul »

Melvyn Morrow

Re: David Moriarty
« Reply #29 on: April 07, 2008, 01:39:51 PM »
I am going to restrict my comment on the newspaper article. How reliable are any of them, it very difficult to say.

Many Archaeologists have tried to fit the evidence into their theories. Today many researches fall at the same hurdle. The simple fact is unless you can find the information from the original archives, it is difficult to substantiate. To add further frustration to ones search, many records have been lost, disposed off or destroyed making life rather difficult to prove or disprove a certain point.

I will say that if it is acceptable to use theses newspaper articles to further ones ideas, then you must accept other similar articles which perhaps do not back up you point of view. We cannot be selective or ignore those parts which don’t fit our theory. I for one want to know the truth. I am not infallible. Some of my searches have reviled the opposite to that which I was looking for, I see not fault or embarrassment in accepting I got it wrong, however there are those who can’t or will not accept their theories are wrong. If you feel anyone fits that mould you have two choices enter into a debate with actual records or just accept that they will not change their minds and refrain from entering or continuing the debate. To agree to disagree is probably the best outcome in this type of case and let others make up their own minds. 

In this case there is a newspaper article that seems to exist and does not appear to have been challenged at the time, so it should be allowed to stand until proved otherwise. 

IMHO


Rich Goodale

Re: David Moriarty
« Reply #30 on: April 07, 2008, 01:48:14 PM »
Rich:

For starters, let's see if you or David can find me the ship manifest passenger listings for Harry Colt on three separate transatlantic crossings both ways in the teens and I will be able to kill at least two birds with one stone. If neither of you can produce that info then what do you suppose that says about the historical accuracies of researching ship manifests? We do know he was here on three separate occasions and I think we pretty much know he didn't fly or swim over here.

Hiya, Buckaroo

It took me about 5 minutes to find this site:

http://www.findmypast.com/

Another 10 minutes on there and I learned that:

1.  a "Hugh Wilson" made the following voyages:

  --April 1 1911 from Glasgow to NYC
  --April 3, 1911 from Liverpool to Boston
 
(obviously not the same guy, but one of them could very well be our "Puffy")

2.  an "HS Colt" made the following trips

  --11 March 1911, Liverpool to NYC, on the "Lusitania"
  --29 March, 1913, Liverpool to NYC on the "Franconia"
  --14 April, 1914, Liverpool to Portland/Boston on the "Carmania"

Hope this helps

Rich

Mark Bourgeois

Re: David Moriarty
« Reply #31 on: April 07, 2008, 02:00:17 PM »
"15 minutes" of search is a little disingenuous, Rich, given your direct experience with steamship travel as evidenced by your 1911 trip from Liverpool to Wellington, NZ and 1936 crossing from Liverpool to NYC!

Dan King

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: David Moriarty
« Reply #32 on: April 07, 2008, 02:06:17 PM »
I'd like to see David M. come back. We need all the mollydookers we can get.

I'm currently a history and journalism student. When doing historical research it is amazing how often newspapers get facts wrong. It's the nature of the beast. Say the reporter in the above instance interviewed someone about Mr. Wilson's qualifications. Perhaps the interviewee says he has visited numerous great courses. The reporter writes in his own brand of shorthand and it comes out as great courses in U.K. and U.S. I'm not saying that is how it happened, but it is part of the problem with using newspapers for research. Even if there was a correction a few days or weeks later, would the research see the correction?

I'm currently doing a paper on the Robert Bork Hearings in 1987. It amazes me how often newspapers get things wrong. Often they disagree on which Senator asked which question, or answers from witnesses. These are major newspapers such as New York Times, Washington Post and Philadelphia Inquirer. Some times they have corrections, but those don't end up in the databases researchers typically use.

This doesn't mean newspapers can't be used. I just wouldn't rely on them as my only source for specific data, and I would never say because I read something in a newspaper it must be true.

Cheers,
Dan King
Quote
Early in life I had noticed that no event is ever correctly reported in a newspaper.
 --George Orwell

Mike_Cirba

Re: David Moriarty
« Reply #33 on: April 07, 2008, 02:31:39 PM »
I'm very pleased with the tone that this thread is taking and would also endeavor to ask David and Tom MacWood to join with us.

At this juncture, I would only add that William Evans, along with being the golfwriter for the Philadelphia Public Ledger was not only a member of Lansdowne CC, but the Head of the Greens Committee as well as a prominent Committee member of GAP. regularly hobnobbing with the Robert Lesley's, Clarence Geists, Ellis Gimbels, as well as the second social-tier guys like Hugh Wilson, George Crump, and Bill Meehan.

Mike_Cirba

Re: David Moriarty
« Reply #34 on: April 07, 2008, 02:38:07 PM »
I'd also add to Tom Paul's statement about the legend of Hugh Wilson's voyage overseas is not only that he went...not only that he went for six or seven months...but also that he did volumnious sketches, and handwritten notes.

Somewhere there must have been a Holy Grail with this information, perhaps lost to fire?

James Finegan wrote;

But it was Wilson whom the committee felt should lay out the course. He was an accomplished golfer (former captain of the Princeton University golf team), not on the very top rung of Philadelphia golf but still a competitor who, on a given day, might knock off one of the favorites. What’s more, he had joined his brother, Alan, in the insurance business, which automatically gave a man plenty of time for his beloved avocation.   And when the Merion committee concluded that a first-hand look at Britain’s best courses was essential before turning so much as a spadeful of dirt on Ardmore Avenue Wilson was the logical choice to make the trip. It has been said that Wilson, who was sickly throughout much of his life, was sent to Britain in hopes that the stay there might help restore him to health, a not entirely likely development when you consider the number of damp and chilling days that characterize the climate there.

Before sailing, Wilson made it a point to visit Charles Macdonald at Southampton, where the National was under construction. Macdonald was able to advise the young pilgrim on the courses that were, if you will, "required reading," and to suggest the aspects of those renowned eighteens that should particularly be noted. Hugh Wilson spent some seven months abroad. For the most part it was the shrines of Scotland and England he was playing and studying, though on occasion he visited less well-known courses, including some of the inland ones near London, such as Stoke Poges and Swinley Forest. After all, the new Merion course he was charged with laying out would scarcely be seaside. 

He returned full of information—and not simply in his head. He had made copious notes, drawn sketches of exceptional holes, and managed to get his hands on a number of surveyors’ course maps highlighting singular features. He was now reasonably well equipped to tackle what for many would have been—or at least should have been—a daunting task. 

Wilson was never bent on slavishly duplicating famous holes. True enough, he was inspired by what he had seen and experienced abroad—the splendid 3rd at Merion harks back to North Berwick’s 15th, and the forepart of the green of the equally splendid 17th does call up the Valley of Sin at St. Andrews’ 18th—but anyone who looks for full-fledged copies of renowned Scottish or English holes is bound to be disappointed. Wilson was out to build the best possible parkland course, with the beauty and playability implicit in the term, and at the same time to imbue it with a sweep and naturalness suggestive of the great models—many of them seaside—he had studied. Consistently strong shot values, good balance and variety, honest resistance to low scoring, an overall design that would both challenge and charm—these were the qualities he sought for Merion. – James Finegan “A Centennial Tribute to Golf in Philadelphia”


This seems to be an awful lot of detail to have been just wildly concocted?   To what end??

ed_getka

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: David Moriarty
« Reply #35 on: April 07, 2008, 03:04:27 PM »
Mike,
   Do you happen to know where James Finegan came up with his information?
"Perimeter-weighted fairways", The best euphemism for containment mounding I've ever heard.

Mike_Cirba

Re: David Moriarty
« Reply #36 on: April 07, 2008, 03:14:59 PM »
Mike,
   Do you happen to know where James Finegan came up with his information?

Ed,

That's clearly the $64,000 question, and I'm guessing that he got it from a Merion history book, perhaps Desmond Tolhurst's.   Where did Tolhurst get it?

Those are questions where both Wayne and Tom know waaaayyyy more than I do, to cop a Matt Wardism. 

I can tell you that the semi-related research that Joe Bausch, Geoff Walsh, and I have been doing related to Cobb's Creek has uncovered quite a number of contemporaneous local tidbits crediting Hugh Wilson as the designer of both courses at Merion, as well as Seaview, and part of the collaborative Committee who designed Cobb's Creek (he and Ab Smith were called the "principal architects", although others like Crump, Meehan, Klauder were involved in the layout and Walter Travis helped out towards the end.  One insider account has Wilson spending six months on the design of Cobb's Creek).   He also designed major changes to Philmont South, North Hills, worked with Flynn on major Merion changes in 1916 and 1924, had input on Kittansett, worked with Flynn on the design of Marble Hall,  supervised (with brother Alan) the building of the final four holes at Pine Valley, probably designed Phoenixville, was slated to design Bryn Mawr CC (which was apparently never built), was part of the committee that located the sites for Cobb's Creek in 1913, and Juniata and FDR Park in 1922, and was to have been on the design committee in 1924/25 for the public course at Juniata.

Not bad for an Amateur archie.  ;D

ed_getka

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: David Moriarty
« Reply #37 on: April 07, 2008, 03:54:33 PM »
Nice legwork for an amateur. I guess that is the benefit of living somewhere where they actually have a winter. :)
"Perimeter-weighted fairways", The best euphemism for containment mounding I've ever heard.

John Foley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: David Moriarty
« Reply #38 on: April 07, 2008, 04:27:24 PM »


He returned full of information—and not simply in his head. He had made copious notes, drawn sketches of exceptional holes, and managed to get his hands on a number of surveyors’ course maps highlighting singular features. He was now reasonably well equipped to tackle what for many would have been—or at least should have been—a daunting task. 


Mike - does Wilson's notes from his trip exist?
Integrity in the moment of choice

Mike_Cirba

Re: David Moriarty
« Reply #39 on: April 07, 2008, 04:35:46 PM »
John Foley,

If they do, they aren't in the Merion archives.   They'd probably be the equivalent of the Holy Grail of any architectural items yet to be uncovered.

Mike_Cirba

Re: David Moriarty
« Reply #40 on: April 07, 2008, 04:44:33 PM »
Rich:

For starters, let's see if you or David can find me the ship manifest passenger listings for Harry Colt on three separate transatlantic crossings both ways in the teens and I will be able to kill at least two birds with one stone. If neither of you can produce that info then what do you suppose that says about the historical accuracies of researching ship manifests? We do know he was here on three separate occasions and I think we pretty much know he didn't fly or swim over here.


I'm having a little trouble finding George Crump's 1910 or 1911 voyage to Great Britain.   What am I doing wrong?
Hiya, Buckaroo

It took me about 5 minutes to find this site:

http://www.findmypast.com/

Another 10 minutes on there and I learned that:

1.  a "Hugh Wilson" made the following voyages:

  --April 1 1911 from Glasgow to NYC
  --April 3, 1911 from Liverpool to Boston
 
(obviously not the same guy, but one of them could very well be our "Puffy")

2.  an "HS Colt" made the following trips

  --11 March 1911, Liverpool to NYC, on the "Lusitania"
  --29 March, 1913, Liverpool to NYC on the "Franconia"
  --14 April, 1914, Liverpool to Portland/Boston on the "Carmania"

Hope this helps

Rich

Rich Goodale

Re: David Moriarty
« Reply #41 on: April 07, 2008, 05:12:16 PM »
Mike

The website is a Brit one, so all you get is voyages from the UK to the USA (and elsewhere).  You need to register (free), and rememb er to put birth date into the search query.  I think you can get more information if you pay for it.

I get a Geo Crump sailing back from Southampton (England) to NYC on March 31, 1909.

Rich

BCrosby

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: David Moriarty
« Reply #42 on: April 07, 2008, 05:28:54 PM »
Great get Rich.

It's no surprise that MacKenzie seemed to travel a lot. Crane had homes in London and Paris and also traveled a lot. I only find one return trip for Old Max, after the summer he spent in Britain in 1929.

Good stuff. I wonder why the UK outbound records are so much easier to find?

Bob

Mike_Cirba

Re: David Moriarty
« Reply #43 on: April 07, 2008, 06:53:47 PM »
Rich,

That "Geo Crump" who came to NYC in 1909 was single and a toolmaker.

Crump definitely went to GB in 1910 for 3 months. 

Patrick_Mucci

Re: David Moriarty
« Reply #44 on: April 07, 2008, 07:02:32 PM »
Rich Goodale,

I was an infant in 1912 and don't recollect the procedure, but, 40 years later I did cross the Atlantic with my father who was playing in the British and French Amateurs, and, David Moriarty located us on the ship's manifests.

TEPaul,

I'm not sure that private vessels had to maintain manifests, although I think they might.  But, commercial vessels required them.

Mike Cirba,

The inability to determine which ship Wilson sailed on can't be dismissed.
If all of the commercial vessels manifest's were reviewed during a specified time frame and his name can't be found, while it doesn't guarantee that he didn't sail, the evidence would seem to point to that conclusion.

Mike_Cirba

Re: David Moriarty
« Reply #45 on: April 07, 2008, 07:04:56 PM »
Mike Cirba,

The inability to determine which ship Wilson sailed on can't be dismissed.
If all of the commercial vessels manifest's were reviewed during a specified time frame and his name can't be found, while it doesn't guarantee that he didn't sail, the evidence would seem to point to that conclusion.

Patrick,

I'm not dismissing it at all.

I'm just wondering why George Crump's 1910 trip isn't listed either?   I've paid for the subscription so I can see that it's not there.   At minimum, he didn't sail back from Great Britain according to these records.

Where'd he go??

Craig Disher

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: David Moriarty
« Reply #46 on: April 07, 2008, 07:28:46 PM »
I spent many hours reviewing the minutes of Littlestone GC last year and am reasonably certain that if Hugh Wilson visited any club that kept minutes, a note about his visit would appear in them. Stoke Poges and Swinley Forest would be good places to start. I'll look at LGC's this summer.

wsmorrison

Re: David Moriarty
« Reply #47 on: April 07, 2008, 07:47:08 PM »
Craig,

Did Littlestone keep a guest book?  If so, perhaps you'll find a confirmation there.  I'll be at Swinley Forest and Sunningdale in June.  I'll ask if they have any archival records to indicate his visits.  I guess we can figure out which clubs Macdonald would have directed Wilson, certainly the ones that influenced his hole designs at NGLA.

James Bennett

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: David Moriarty
« Reply #48 on: April 07, 2008, 09:05:13 PM »
He's back!

Welcome David.  Nice to see you again.  How are the ebay clubs?

James B
Bob; its impossible to explain some of the clutter that gets recalled from the attic between my ears. .  (SL Solow)

Joe Bausch

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: David Moriarty
« Reply #49 on: April 07, 2008, 09:38:46 PM »
I'm very pleased with the tone that this thread is taking and would also endeavor to ask David and Tom MacWood to join with us.

At this juncture, I would only add that William Evans, along with being the golfwriter for the Philadelphia Public Ledger was not only a member of Lansdowne CC, but the Head of the Greens Committee as well as a prominent Committee member of GAP. regularly hobnobbing with the Robert Lesley's, Clarence Geists, Ellis Gimbels, as well as the second social-tier guys like Hugh Wilson, George Crump, and Bill Meehan.

Thanks for expanding on Evans' roles, Mike.

I'm trying to be objective here and want to understand how Evans could have his info so wrong.  It is one thing to hear a date incorrectly, but it wouldn't make ANY sense at all for the story about how Wilson went over BEFORE Merion was built to somehow have occurred instead afterwards.

I'm sorry, but this idea that Wilson didn't take a trip or two before the East course was built just doesn't pass my sniff test and my nose has rarely been wrong.  And, yes, I'll willingly admit that my nose was wrong if definitive proof can be gathered to support claims Wilson wasn't on some ship registry before 1913.
@jwbausch (for new photo albums)
The site for the Cobb's Creek project:  https://cobbscreek.org/
Nearly all Delaware Valley golf courses in photo albums: Bausch Collection