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Jeff_Brauer

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New Unnamed Tool to Measure Firmness
« on: April 05, 2008, 02:42:07 PM »
Catching up on my reading and looked at the last USGA Green Section Record.  It seems there is a tool out now to measure firmness, which is distinct from speed.  Looks like a little tamper plate on a long stick.

Maybe firm and fast is catching on a bit more, eh?
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

JESII

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: New Unnamed Tool to Measure Firmness
« Reply #1 on: April 05, 2008, 02:47:40 PM »
Frighteningly, there was talk on here a month or two ago about this thing (or one like it). One frightening part was the name...I believe they named it the thumper. The other was that they are apparently actually thinking about using it.

RSLivingston_III

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Re: New Unnamed Tool to Measure Firmness
« Reply #2 on: April 05, 2008, 04:40:53 PM »
Frighteningly, there was talk on here a month or two ago about this thing (or one like it). One frightening part was the name...I believe they named it the thumper. The other was that they are apparently actually thinking about using it.

I think being frightened by a measuring tool is a biy of an over reaction...
"You need to start with the hickories as I truly believe it is hard to get inside the mind of the great architects from days gone by if one doesn't have any sense of how the equipment played way back when!"  
       Our Fearless Leader

Jim_Kennedy

  • Karma: +0/-0
"I never beat a well man in my life" - Harry Vardon

RSLivingston_III

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Re: New Unnamed Tool to Measure Firmness
« Reply #4 on: April 05, 2008, 05:27:39 PM »
Thanks for the link. Great article!
"You need to start with the hickories as I truly believe it is hard to get inside the mind of the great architects from days gone by if one doesn't have any sense of how the equipment played way back when!"  
       Our Fearless Leader

RJ_Daley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: New Unnamed Tool to Measure Firmness
« Reply #5 on: April 05, 2008, 05:42:38 PM »
Let's have a GCA.com, "name the tool" contest, and submit our winning name to the USGA for their consideration.  ;D

I'll give it a go...

We have the "stimp meter"

How about the pimp[le] meter, or dimp[le] meter?  ::) ;D
No actual golf rounds were ruined or delayed, nor golf rules broken, in the taking of any photographs that may be displayed by the above forum user.

Jim_Kennedy

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: New Unnamed Tool to Measure Firmness
« Reply #6 on: April 05, 2008, 05:50:33 PM »
RJ,
How about Ramball.  Then as it is improved we can have Ramball II, III, IV, V, VI, andonandonandon  :o
"I never beat a well man in my life" - Harry Vardon

JESII

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: New Unnamed Tool to Measure Firmness
« Reply #7 on: April 05, 2008, 05:55:13 PM »
Frighteningly, there was talk on here a month or two ago about this thing (or one like it). One frightening part was the name...I believe they named it the thumper. The other was that they are apparently actually thinking about using it.

I think being frightened by a measuring tool is a biy of an over reaction...

What reaction would be just shy of "frightened"?

JESII

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: New Unnamed Tool to Measure Firmness
« Reply #8 on: April 05, 2008, 06:02:36 PM »
Here is my problem with the idea.

If a superintendent is operating with the idea that their course should be firm right now, the only thing this tool can suggest is that they need to water more.

As I have learned from the guys who do it for a living, turf health is as much art as science. This tool seems to want to take the art out of it...which will, in the end, increase dependency on science in a profession that needs guys that can instinctively nurture the course through a season.

Perhaps I am a hypocrite, but I see value to consistent green speeds, I do not see the value to dictating consistent firmness across different playing areas...

RSLivingston_III

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: New Unnamed Tool to Measure Firmness
« Reply #9 on: April 05, 2008, 07:51:08 PM »
It would be helpful to have a super from an F&F course speak up about how they would utilize this tool. I see non F&F course supers using this to learn how to turn off the water....
"You need to start with the hickories as I truly believe it is hard to get inside the mind of the great architects from days gone by if one doesn't have any sense of how the equipment played way back when!"  
       Our Fearless Leader

Joe Hancock

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: New Unnamed Tool to Measure Firmness
« Reply #10 on: April 05, 2008, 08:00:48 PM »
I don't see a useful purpose of this tool. If I learn the limits of my turfs' ability to survive, and I keep making the attempt to change the irrigation practices to promote a durable turf, I won't need a ViagraTron to check firmness. Doing F&F properly won't happen in a season or two, and this meter thingy won't help if a club is on a long term cultural change to dry it up. The super will know all he or she needs to know by being out on the course, making observations and tweaking irrigation to obtain their goals.

Look at the courses of the UK, and see how there are variations in the turf color. A little more water in the hollows, a little less on the peaks...Mother Nature didn't ask for consistency and neither should we.

Joe
" What the hell is the point of architecture and excellence in design if a "clever" set up trumps it all?" Peter Pallotta, June 21, 2016

"People aren't picking a side of the fairway off a tee because of a randomly internally contoured green ."  jeffwarne, February 24, 2017

JESII

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: New Unnamed Tool to Measure Firmness
« Reply #11 on: April 05, 2008, 08:06:47 PM »
Joe,

You could have just said "ViagraTron"...


Joe Hancock

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: New Unnamed Tool to Measure Firmness
« Reply #12 on: April 05, 2008, 08:11:39 PM »
A bit verbose, huh?

Sorry..... ;D
" What the hell is the point of architecture and excellence in design if a "clever" set up trumps it all?" Peter Pallotta, June 21, 2016

"People aren't picking a side of the fairway off a tee because of a randomly internally contoured green ."  jeffwarne, February 24, 2017

TEPaul

Re: New Unnamed Tool to Measure Firmness
« Reply #13 on: April 05, 2008, 08:43:03 PM »
The name of this USGA tool will probably always be The Thumper. They wanted to name it the Thumpmeter but that name was taken.

I'm with Ralph, I see The Thumper as a good thing as it might help inspire courses to stop over irrigating and get into firmer and faster programs and consequently more intersting and exciting playability in the future.

It seems to me if the USGA decided to promote Mother and good old  American apple pie some of the people on here would find some rationale to criticize them for it and suspect they were up to no good somehow.


JESII

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: New Unnamed Tool to Measure Firmness
« Reply #14 on: April 05, 2008, 09:06:39 PM »
Tom,

I think I am the only one criticizing the tool on this thread. I also think this is the only thing I have really criticized the USGA about. I support just about everything they do.

Do you think this ViagraTron will actually inform some greens committee that their course is soft when they think it is firm? I just cannot see how that would happen.

When use of this tool is described as helping to provide a consistent firmness across the course, I question that as well. Some greens are just meant to be softer than others and expecting a superintendent to micro-manage that firmness is unthinkable to me. Frightening even...

TEPaul

Re: New Unnamed Tool to Measure Firmness
« Reply #15 on: April 05, 2008, 09:24:31 PM »
"Do you think this ViagraTron will actually inform some greens committee that their course is soft when they think it is firm? I just cannot see how that would happen."

Sully:

Yes I do, definitely. I don't blame you for not seeing how this can happen. You may not appreciate the problem out there with softness and over irrigation with golf clubs despite all the golf you've played elsewhere because of the club and course you come from and grew up on. In other words, where HVGC has been for the last twenty years in this way I think a whole lot of courses should follow. Some have been and more need to.

"When use of this tool is described as helping to provide a consistent firmness across the course, I question that as well. Some greens are just meant to be softer than others and expecting a superintendent to micro-manage that firmness is unthinkable to me."

I really do hear you on that and I agree with you. Standardizations borne of a desire for ultra consistencies in golf is something I've never believed in. I don't like that mind-set and direction any more than you.

On the other hand, and I hate to say this, but fudging the firmness/ receptiveness equation on aerial demand greens where most golfers wouldn't even notice differences with the rest of the greens just might be benefited by a tool like the Thumper.

There is an alternative, of course, to the Thumper with the latter considerations and that of course is to simply hit shots and test those greens. I just don't see a lot of supers hitting shots to do that kind of testing.

Considerations of agronomic health and well being is of course immensely important and it always will be obviously but I see nothing at all wrong with getting agronomic health and firm and fast playability on the same page.
« Last Edit: April 05, 2008, 09:31:57 PM by TEPaul »

Pete_Pittock

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: New Unnamed Tool to Measure Firmness
« Reply #16 on: April 05, 2008, 11:33:41 PM »
Maybe they can use it next time they go to Shinnecock. One of the perks of the long ball is that you get to see your opponent's ball boounce. and learn the green's hardenss.
I'd name it Bambi.

Adam Clayman

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: New Unnamed Tool to Measure Firmness
« Reply #17 on: April 06, 2008, 12:01:33 AM »
This tool was mentioned in Superintendent News perhaps three years ago.
 
There's another possible benefit, if architects, who in the past never considered designing for the ground game, start to consider it, and then learn how to do it creatively and effectively.
"It's unbelievable how much you don't know about the game you've been playing your whole life." - Mickey Mantle

James Bennett

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: New Unnamed Tool to Measure Firmness
« Reply #18 on: April 06, 2008, 08:20:18 AM »
Hopefully they use it on the greens AND the nearby surrounds, when they use it.

And the fairways.

James B
Bob; its impossible to explain some of the clutter that gets recalled from the attic between my ears. .  (SL Solow)

TEPaul

Re: New Unnamed Tool to Measure Firmness
« Reply #19 on: April 06, 2008, 09:14:29 AM »
"Maybe they can use it next time they go to Shinnecock."

Pete Pitcock:

Actually, they had it at Shinnecock in '04 but they felt it was too untested at that point and didn't use it. And that's right from the Horse's Mouth.

Jeff_Brauer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: New Unnamed Tool to Measure Firmness
« Reply #20 on: April 06, 2008, 10:58:19 AM »
JES,

At first, I was put off a little by your reply. After more thought, I can understand how you believe that eventually, the thing will be used for pure evil!  At the very least, its use will have some unintended consequences, just as the stimpmeter did.  While at first I figured trying to get the approach areas as firm as possible would be a good thing, the next logical step would be to strive for perfect consistency.

Clubs may strive for the same reading in front of all greens. Whether that makes any sense I will leave to others, but with more variable slopes in front of a green I believe it would be harder to attain than on greens.  And if that leads to flattening of approaches to a "standard" slope so that golfers can better predict how their approach will react, then I think the thumper will inadvertantly take golf in a wrong direction.

Even if not flattening, there is already a micro trend to extending the sand out the approach for a more consistent run in turf condition, and in many cases extending the herringbone out the frontal approach, too.  At the very least, this will increase construction cost and comlexity yet again, or at least has the potential to do so.
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

Mark_Fine

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: New Unnamed Tool to Measure Firmness
« Reply #21 on: April 06, 2008, 11:39:14 AM »
One thing (tool) I use (particularly when playing in the British Isles) is throw my golf ball down on the ground.  If it bounces back up to me, I know I'm in for a fun day  ;)

Norbert P

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: New Unnamed Tool to Measure Firmness
« Reply #22 on: April 06, 2008, 12:11:20 PM »
This is virtually the readvention of the Rockwell tester.  "The Rockwell hardness test was devised by metallurgist Stanley Pickett Rockwell in Syracuse, NY, circa 1919, in order to quickly determine the effects of heat treatment on steel bearing races." Wikipedia

A name for the tester of firmness? Can't call it Rocky!

Let's call it a "Raquel".
                   

 I can see benefits for it, but I can also see it (Thumper, not Raquel) turning into a towel drying rod  after time.  I think Mark Fine's method works just peachy. 


« Last Edit: April 06, 2008, 12:20:39 PM by Slag Bandoon »
"Golf is only meant to be a small part of one’s life, centering around health, relaxation and having fun with friends/family." R"C"M

Steve Lang

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: New Unnamed Tool to Measure Firmness
« Reply #23 on: April 06, 2008, 07:03:14 PM »
 8) Might as well set up seismic monitoring while you're at it
Inverness (Toledo, OH) cathedral clock inscription: "God measures men by what they are. Not what they in wealth possess.  That vibrant message chimes afar.
The voice of Inverness"

Grant Saunders

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: New Unnamed Tool to Measure Firmness
« Reply #24 on: April 07, 2008, 04:20:22 AM »
I believe this tool has the ability to do more damage than the stimpmeter has to the golf course industry.

The idea of a bunch of ignorant committee members using this data to try to elevate the "status" of their course by attempting to outdo what course B down the road achieves could lead to many jobs being lost in the greenkeeping world.

The concept of trying to micro manage different areas of a golf course and even different areas of some greens to try and strive for some scientifically decided value is unattainable without massive resources and money. This completely goes against the goal of affordable golf.

I have issues also with the implication in the article that irrigation and water are to be used as a method to control the firmness of the turf surface. Water is for the health of the grass not the management of how much a golf ball will bounce when hitting a green/approach/fairway. Where is the next step from this suggestion? Heavy rollers and a cricket pitch type management schedule of trying to promote compaction?

I feel that firmness ultimately boils down to what medium the turf is grown in. Clay and heavy soil based soils will always have periods where is is all but impossible to maintain them in firm condition due to weather conditions and season. It can be achieved but only at great expense. The courses that play firm and fast almost all have the common denominator being they are built on sand.

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