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Mike Tanner

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Disappearing bunkers on renovated muni courses
« on: April 03, 2008, 08:54:49 PM »
Admittedly, two examples do not mark a national trend, but I wonder if group members in other parts of the country have noted the phenomenon of bunkers being eliminated from municipal courses during recent renovations. The examples I've seen in my area are Sleepy Hole GC (Russell Breeden, 1972; renovated in 2003 by Ault, Clark Associates) in Suffolk, Va. and Red Wing Lake GC (Geo. Cobb, 1968; renovated 2005 by Kevin Tucker) in Virginia Beach, Va. In both cases, hole corridors were left intact while drainage and irrigation systems were updated, and tees and greens were redesigned.

The explanation I hear most often is that the fairway and greenside bunkers were removed to reduce maintenance costs. I can understand that, but the results seem to reduce strategic considerations for players, atrophy bunker shot skills and devalue aesthetic values.

Has anyone else noticed this? Do the architects out there see this as a trend in the category?   
Life's too short to waste on bad golf courses or bad wine.

John Moore II

Re: Disappearing bunkers on renovated muni courses
« Reply #1 on: April 03, 2008, 09:30:30 PM »
Holes and courses do not need to have 100 bunkers to be good courses. Yes, they may add to looks, but strategy can still be there in the course. Played a course today designed by two new GCA.com guys, Jeff Grossman and Roy Case; the course had 27 bunkers. And yet, it never really occured to me that it was lacking in bunkers. Yes, they can frame a hole and provide penalty, but at a public golf course is that really necessary? Does the normal public course golfer need a great deal of penalty? No, they need to have fun and get around quickly. Bunkers and other hazards are what contribute to slow play and people quitting playing golf.
--And to go with the idea of adding cost, yes, bunkers, especially faced bunkers, require a large commitment of labor hours to maintain. If eliminating bunkers allows a course to charge $45 and have pace of play be 4 hours, that sounds good to me. Or, Mike, would you rather have the course charge $65 and the pace be 5 hours?
« Last Edit: April 03, 2008, 09:52:28 PM by J. Kenneth Moore »

Mike Nuzzo

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Disappearing bunkers on renovated muni courses
« Reply #2 on: April 03, 2008, 09:39:17 PM »
Mike,
Yes.
When individual bunkers are scrutinized there is very little reason to keep a charming one... i.e. not in a high play area.

Are they your regular courses?
How many bunkers were on the course?

Does the current google or microsoft aerial show the old bunkers?
Maybe you could show an example.

Cheers
Thinking of Bob, Rihc, Bill, George, Neil, Dr. Childs, & Tiger.

Tony Petersen

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Disappearing bunkers on renovated muni courses
« Reply #3 on: April 03, 2008, 09:40:04 PM »
My home club back in MN has no fairway bunkers and it will always be my Augusta ;)

Traditional Parkland, 1916, lightning fast greens, no fairway bunkers... and it still makes for a good test for 99.9% of all golfers ;)
Ski - U - Mah... University of Minnesota... "Seven beers followed by two Scotches and a thimble of marijuana and it's funny how sleep comes all on it's own.”

Mike Tanner

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Disappearing bunkers on renovated muni courses
« Reply #4 on: April 03, 2008, 10:25:36 PM »
Kenneth -- You bring up a good point about pace of play; that's the other reason most people I've talked to cite for eliminating bunkers. But to be clear, I'm not saying that a course has to be laden with bunkers to be good.
I'm certainly not in favor of five-hour rounds. However, I don't think bunkers are the sole reason for slow play and people quitting golf. But that could be a whole 'nother topic.
The point I was trying to make has more to do with the loss of design elements from an existing course. Fairway bunkers that determine angles of play from the tee. Greenside bunkers that establish lines of attack. When the hole corridors stay the same during a renovation, but the bunkers are removed, I think the strategic equation is unbalanced and the course becomes less interesting.

Mike N. -- Good suggestion about aerials. I didn't check microsoft, but google displays the current iterations of both courses. It looks like Red Wing's was taken before grow-in was completed. As for before/after numbers, I can't say for certain about Sleepy Hole, but Red Wing went from around seventy bunkers to 11 (10 greenside, 1 fairway). I played both regularly in the early 1980s and Red Wing fairly often until the renovation.
Life's too short to waste on bad golf courses or bad wine.

David Stamm

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Disappearing bunkers on renovated muni courses
« Reply #5 on: April 03, 2008, 10:31:30 PM »
Mike, this is nothing new, at least in my neck of the woods. I can't begin to count how many bunker carcasses I've seen on Bell Sr. muni's in SoCal. Between San Clemente, Willowick and Balboa Park, I would say there at least 25-30. And when you consider that Bell may have been the most artistic (along with MacKenzie) bunker builder in history, it's sad. :'(
"The object of golf architecture is to give an intelligent purpose to the striking of a golf ball."- Max Behr

John Moore II

Re: Disappearing bunkers on renovated muni courses
« Reply #6 on: April 03, 2008, 10:54:46 PM »
Mike--For who do the holes become uninteresting? For the average golfer, it does not become uniteresting at all, I think. It becomes more enjoyable, in fact. And that is the key for the average golfer, whatever can be done to make pace faster and more enjoyable for the average golfer is excellent by me.

Mike_Cirba

Re: Disappearing bunkers on renovated muni courses
« Reply #7 on: April 03, 2008, 11:01:31 PM »
One of the most interesting things about the Cobb's Creek project and research has been that today's course probably has more bunkers than the original 1916 version.   I say probably, only because there are no drawings or pics uncovered to date of the original par three 14th hole, which was abandoned before 1928.

Today's course features a massive total of 23 bunkers...most of which are "saving" bunkers, which simply stop shots from rolling into even more disadvantageous positions.

In some ways, I've learned more about architecture and the over-emphasis on bunkers from Cobb's Creek in the past six months than anything I'd learned in my previous 35 years of golf.

Mike Tanner

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Disappearing bunkers on renovated muni courses
« Reply #8 on: April 04, 2008, 10:12:10 PM »
Kenneth--Who is this "average golfer?" If it's someone who never thinks about the strategic elements of a course and its effect on his score and only wants to chase the ball for 18 holes, then the fewer bunkers the better I would agree. If it's someone who thinks about the options that strategic elements present and takes pleasure in using that knowledge to advantage, then the arrangement of bunkers in relationship to other design elements is interesting.

I think Mr. Cirba's comment serves as a corollary to my point; the addition of bunkers where they were not intended or where they serve no great purpose is equally as misguided as removing them, especially if the course's other design elements remain the same.
Life's too short to waste on bad golf courses or bad wine.

John Moore II

Re: Disappearing bunkers on renovated muni courses
« Reply #9 on: April 04, 2008, 11:45:59 PM »
Mike--I think in all seriousness that the average golfer is the one who just chases the ball around. He want to pay little, take little time, and have lots of fun. He does not really worry about strategy. Those types of players are the ones at the typical municipal course, at least the municipal courses where I have played. Not to mention, most municipal courses are not exactly architectural marvels, so there is no real value loss in the architecture.

Kyle Harris

Re: Disappearing bunkers on renovated muni courses
« Reply #10 on: April 05, 2008, 09:48:11 AM »
Mike--I think in all seriousness that the average golfer is the one who just chases the ball around. He want to pay little, take little time, and have lots of fun. He does not really worry about strategy. Those types of players are the ones at the typical municipal course, at least the municipal courses where I have played. Not to mention, most municipal courses are not exactly architectural marvels, so there is no real value loss in the architecture.

Get out and prove that one.

If that were the case, the "average" golfer would probably spend more time at the range and then putting. It would certain give the same feeling for far less money.

Cory Brown

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Disappearing bunkers on renovated muni courses
« Reply #11 on: April 05, 2008, 01:29:36 PM »
Kyle, I believe Mike's assessment is correct.  Loads of fun is not to be found on the range or practice green for most people.  The average golfer wants to show up on the first tee and just be good, without all the work involved with being good.  The same is also true with driving ranges.  Walk up to any range in America and watch the 90% of people pounding drivers, and look around for the 0% who are shaping 5 iron shots.

Jeff_Brauer

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Re: Disappearing bunkers on renovated muni courses
« Reply #12 on: April 05, 2008, 01:47:36 PM »
Yes, I have seen that trend. I have even been called back to about six of my own 1990's era courses to remove bunkers while maintaining strategy. Other courses simply remove them, so its nice of the courses to ask me back.

The idea is usually cost driven.  In addition to removing lesser used bunkers other bunkers are flattened, reduced in size, etc. to minimize maintenance costs in this cost driven golf economy.  In the 1990's my courses often had 85-100K sf of bunkers. My last two designs are half that - 45-50,000 SF, more through size and scale reduction (a smaller bunker takes a little less time to rake, esp. if hand raking is required via a bunker liner in use) and somewhat through using other hazards - choclate drop mounds, grass bunkers, fw bumps, etc. in their place.

Re the latter, I find that the designs really don't lack anything. In fact, I think they may prove more interesting in the long term with a greater variety of recovery shots than "bunker left, bunker right" might offer.

I don't see it as any different than the bunker removals advocated by Tillie in the 1930's or those that took place gradually in the 1970's when gas prices soared similarly to now.

Add in the desire for "perfect bunkers" now and the costs of bunker maintenance are too high, in the view of course managers for their return. In actual fact, they find that few golfers desert their courses after bunker removal. Now, if they removed the greens for easier maintenance, they would probably find a few more defectors!
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

RSLivingston_III

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Disappearing bunkers on renovated muni courses
« Reply #13 on: April 05, 2008, 04:57:51 PM »
The public courses around here have said they removed the bunkers to increase speed of play.
"You need to start with the hickories as I truly believe it is hard to get inside the mind of the great architects from days gone by if one doesn't have any sense of how the equipment played way back when!"  
       Our Fearless Leader

Dan Herrmann

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Re: Disappearing bunkers on renovated muni courses
« Reply #14 on: April 05, 2008, 10:16:36 PM »
It's not just publics.  I played Woodcrest a few years ago.  It's a Flynn course in Southern NJ, and they've removed a number of bunkers.  Unfortunately, they've narrowed the fairways to (and I'm obviously exaggerating) a single file width fairway lined by trees.

Doug Siebert

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Disappearing bunkers on renovated muni courses
« Reply #15 on: April 08, 2008, 02:23:25 AM »
There's a relatively new course about 10 miles north of where I live that's got exactly two bunkers, one behind the par 3 4th which I've never seen anyone in and a fairway bunker on the par 5 5th that comes into play and that I've personally visited.  Its not a muni, but it is public.

I think the course works wonderfully in a strategic sense.  The is enough contour to the land, both natural and artificial, along with some relatively F&F conditions to require you to think your way around even without bunkers.  There are a number of grass hollows that look like they were built to be bunkers, but rather than believe they should fill those with sand I think they should fill in the two bunkers they do have.  It'd be a great example to people that a course can be strategic without any bunkers, few trees and very little water coming into play.  Its not a brutal and tough course by any means, but it isn't a simple walk in the park where you can just hit down the center of the fairway and fire at the pins on every hole, either.

The best thing about filling in those two bunkers is that it would gain additional GCA quirk points for having no bunkers, in addition to its 6/6/6 layout and six hole streak without a par 4 on the back nine.
My hovercraft is full of eels.

John Moore II

Re: Disappearing bunkers on renovated muni courses
« Reply #16 on: April 08, 2008, 11:17:07 PM »
Kyle--I can prove that fast, cheap rounds are what the general public wants. Just ask golfers who have more or less quit the game in the past few years why they quit. The most dominant reasons are that a round takes too long or a round is too expensive. Now, they may say kids or just married or new job, but overall, those reasons come back to time and money. As far as I am concerned, if removing a bunker speeds up play, reduces my overhead, and brings more golfers to the course, then take them away.
--BTW--why would people go to the range when they don't have time to play?

Joe Hancock

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Disappearing bunkers on renovated muni courses
« Reply #17 on: April 08, 2008, 11:20:07 PM »

--BTW--why would people go to the range when they don't have time to play?

Because they think they will carry the team during the Annual Boy Scout Fundraiser Tournament.....

Joe
" What the hell is the point of architecture and excellence in design if a "clever" set up trumps it all?" Peter Pallotta, June 21, 2016

"People aren't picking a side of the fairway off a tee because of a randomly internally contoured green ."  jeffwarne, February 24, 2017

John Moore II

Re: Disappearing bunkers on renovated muni courses
« Reply #18 on: April 08, 2008, 11:51:30 PM »
Joe--my point was that most likely, the golfer who does not have time to play at least once a month will not worry about going to the range. It just doesn't happen. My saying that was also in response to Kyle saying people would go to the range rather than play, it just doesn't happen.

Joe Hancock

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Disappearing bunkers on renovated muni courses
« Reply #19 on: April 09, 2008, 07:03:46 AM »
Joe--my point was that most likely, the golfer who does not have time to play at least once a month will not worry about going to the range. It just doesn't happen. My saying that was also in response to Kyle saying people would go to the range rather than play, it just doesn't happen.

Oops...I forgot this:

 ;D

Joe
" What the hell is the point of architecture and excellence in design if a "clever" set up trumps it all?" Peter Pallotta, June 21, 2016

"People aren't picking a side of the fairway off a tee because of a randomly internally contoured green ."  jeffwarne, February 24, 2017

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